45LC w Lil Gun

[Forty-Four Fan]

OMG... the power of the internet. This "Lil'Gun will destroy your revolver" BS has been going on for over a decade now.

ONE manufacturer of niche revolver (Freedom Arms), in ONE ultra-powerful caliber (.454 Casull), said that Lil'Gun caused forcing cone erosion "in as little as 50 rounds". Then doubled-down with claiming that Lil'Gun will melted the barrel.

Hodgdon says they cannot duplicate the problem and they sell plenty of Lil'Gun. They have lots of different propellants in their line and there's no reason for them to sell an inherently defective or dangerous one.

Various interweb comments of dubious worth get amplified, such as "it's got too much nitro", "I dropped the gun it got so hot", "bad pressure curve", "if so-and-so said it well that's good enough for me!", etc etc.

Lil'Gun is no different than any other "slow-burning" smokeless propellant when used in a handgun. They all burn at 1000-1200 degrees over the course of a few millseconds. The difference is the amount of time that the gases are burning in contact with the chamber, throat, forcing cone and barrel. Lil'Gun is not much "slower" than H110/W296. The barrels get warmer than with "faster" burning powders because the length of time of the burn is longer with slower powders. Lil'Gun is very slow for a handgun powder, and yes the barrels get warm if you fire lots of rounds in quick succession.

There's plenty of video on the internet of closed-bolt full-auto weapons being fired to point of failure, with the barrel glowing red hot. This is after 500+ rounds fired within a minute or two. Yes the rifling is getting burned and irreparably damaged, but the barrel did not melt. How fast can you repeatedly fire and reload a revolver to melt the barrel? You can't.

The adverse effects of heat over time are enhanced with the use of lighter bullets and "overbore" powder charges such as used in .454 Casull. The lighter bullets launch quicker and the heat of the gases and burning takes place sooner and longer in the vulnerable area of the b/c gap. Add to this, issues of bullet fit in the throat, amount of actual b/c gap, and gas blow-by.

Wait a minute. Big magnum cartridges firing big powder charges cause more erosion than smaller charges? 35 grains of Lil'Gun (.454 Casull) causes more heat and damage than 21 grains (.45 Colt) with the same bullet? Wow, you learn something OLD every day.

You pay a price with big magnums in recoil, heat and cost.

Ruger Blackhawk Stainless .45 Colt, 72 rounds of .45 Colt 335 LBT and 20.0 gr Lil'Gun

Ruger SP-101 Stainless .327 Federal Magnum, 120 rounds of .32 H&R Magnum 100 XTP with 11.0 gr Lil'Gun

Smith & Wesson Model 57-6 .41 Magnum 6" barrel, after 132 rounds of .41 Mag 210 XTP with 22.0 gr Lil'Gun

Ruger Bisley Blackhawk Stainless .480 Ruger, 375 LBT with 22.0 grains Lil'Gun

All of these guns have also fired several hundred rounds each of various lighter cast bullet loads with fast-to-medium burn rate powders such as 700-X and HS-6. All three shoot excellent groups at 50 yards.

Where's the revolver-ending erosion?

 

[GasGuzzler]

^^^ THIS ^^^ and thank you for taking the time to explain instead of spreading incorrect rumors.

But the topic is not about big loads. The point is Lil'Gun is NOT for little loads in .45 anything.

 

[gnappi]

Get some Red Dot and you'll be much happier.

Several years ago I was at a gun show on a Sunday and a fellow had a keg of Red Dot he said he couldn't give away because it's not a handgun powder. I happened to remember seeing loads in older manuals and since he didn't want to bring it back home he gave me the keg for something like $40. Not a handgun powder bah!

 

[Blackhawk Convertable]

Except for full power magnum loads, I use Red Dot for all my handgun loads.

 

[krw]

Reason I posted about Lil Gun is because I hav 9lbs. I cannot buy Unique, Red Dot. I do not mind ordering and paying Hazmat. Buy lots of powders are unobtanium. Powder Valley, Midsouth, Natchez

 

[GasGuzzler]

You only need Unique if you run out of everything. I have never tried Red Dot. Sounds similar. They don't do what Lil'Gun does. They're not in the same county.

 

[BIgMuddy]

Unique would work great if you could find it. A few powders that will get the OP to the velocity he is looking for and ARE available:

Hodgdon Longshot
Hodgdon HS6
Hodgdon Titegroup
Hodgdon CFE Pistol*
Alliant BE-86*

* I haven’t personally used

All of those listed were available at Graf’s when I last looked.

Dan

 

[Ruger Accumulator]

I personally like HS-6 a lot. It has very similar properties to Unique, in that it can be loaded from light target loads, to moderately heavy loads. Plus, I find it meters more consistently than unique.

I have also used Lil Gun with good success in full power .32 H&R Magnum, and heavy .45 Colt loads.

 

[vlavalle]

vlavalle,, many people reload & don't use factory ammo. As such,, many don't study ballistics or such stuff. They just want quick, cheap, easy or whatever info. That may be why not too many folks want a copy of your files.
I for one,, rarely shoot factory ammo. And often,, only if I've gotten some in a package deal, cheap, or whatever. I shoot it up as "plinking" stuff to get the brass for reloading using my handload data.

But if people don't care to reload,, but want a place to get data on factory stuff,, I'm sure your files would be very helpful.

Yes, I agree with you that most people that reload do not check the ballistics of their reloads, and hence would not be interested in gathering that info for already manufactured, ammo. I myself use to reload back in the early 70's, but over time, and as I got older and busier, I did not have the time to reload. Then in the early 2010's I looked into getting reload equipment (the equipment used to make reloads, and it was quite expensive. I would have to shoot several thousands of rounds a year to just break even, not to mention all the time it takes. But it was fun long ago when I did make reloaded ammo.

I now have a chronograph, and on my next shooting outing (when the weather warms up a bit) , I will use it to see just how accurate or realistic the manufactured ammo ballistics really are. I suspect that some of the manufacturers state values what are essentially from rifles (with barrels of 10" or more) and not from normal handguns (5"-6.5" barrels).

Also, I do wonder what percentage of people in this forum really do reloads. I would suspect most do not. I doubt that there is any way to find this value out.

 

[vlavalle]

Not to demean your efforts, but for the most part factory ballistics are a myth.
My experience with factory ammo over the past 50+ yrs is that velocities are 10-20% below advertised. The only source of information I trust is from my chronograph, and I have an abundance of documentation.
But thank you for your contribution.

I now own a chronograph, and I will soon be on a quest to document actual ballistics versus advertised ones. I will be sure to let the manufacturers know. I know of a few manufacturers that 'lie' (show data that is not based on realistic scenarios, like very long barrel lengths for handgun ammo), probably just to make better sales. One ammo manufacturer that comes to mind in this way very quickly is Amscor. But I would suspect that Buffalo Bore's specs are dead on. This manufacturer tells you the barrel length and often the actual handgun used to get their ballistics stats.

I would be very interested in seeing your chronograph data, and for what calibers and ammo manufacturers. I will try to tabulate all of my data so it can be published. But I have only 4 calibers, all handgun revolvers: .38 Spec, .357 Mag. .45 ACP. 45LC.

I have no way, nor will I, to make a claim about the overall ammo manufacturers and how often their published ballistics data is incorrect or or misleading, partially just due to the fact that I have only 4 calibers. But as a result of my collecting the ammo data to create my ballistics file of over 3,500 entries (each pointing to an online website where you can buy that ammo), I do come across ballistics data that is indeed bogus. This is only with retailer sites, and not the manufacturer sites.

Since I calculate (the original file is in MS Excel) the power (ft. lbs.) for every entry, and I do not use the published power value, I can tell right away if the published data is correct or not. Sometimes it is the speed that is wrong, and sometimes it is the power that is wrong, and sometimes it is both! When the either of the first to scenarios occurs, I contact the retailer via email, and tell them what is wrong, for which exact webpage, and give them the correct data. When they are both wrong, I suggest that they have published some other ammo's ballistics info. I get the correct data from the manufacturer, other than the power, which is calculated within the Excel file for each entry.

 

[contender]

I suspect you'll find a lot of the factory offerings don't quite meet the published data.
One big reason is the choice of firearm,,, OR,, "universal receiver" used to get their data,, vs real world firearms. Lots of various firearms have different types of actions & barrel lengths to where it does affect the actual velocities.

On the question of how many folks reload,, you may be quite surprised. I know a LOT of people who reload,, and the percentage of them vs factory shooters isn't too far apart.
That said,, you also have to take into account how many people are "casual" shooters or heck, "seldom" shooters.

But active folks in the gun world,, many do reload.

 

[vlavalle]

I suspect you'll find a lot of the factory offerings don't quite meet the published data.
One big reason is the choice of firearm,,, OR,, "universal receiver" used to get their data,, vs real world firearms. Lots of various firearms have different types of actions & barrel lengths to where it does affect the actual velocities.

On the question of how many folks reload,, you may be quite surprised. I know a LOT of people who reload,, and the percentage of them vs factory shooters isn't too far apart.
That said,, you also have to take into account how many people are "casual" shooters or heck, "seldom" shooters.

But active folks in the gun world,, many do reload.

I just did a quick research online and ask how many gun owners reload. The answer is somewhat complicated, depending on the caliber, and how long ago you bought your reloading equipment. But in most sources I found online, the consensus is that between 1%-5% reload their own ammo. Part of this is that (1) you need a place/space to reload, (2) you need to have calibers that are not low cost on the market already, such as 9mm and .45ACP, (3) you have or are willing to spend the time on this activity, (4) and that you purchased your reloading equipment at least 20-25 years ago, (5) you shoot a lot of ammo annually, perhaps over 1,000 rounds per caliber.

 

[contender]

That number may be correct for if considering ALL gun owners. But if you look at the gun forums,, where people are active gun people,, I'm sure the numbers would be different. Heck,, the "cast boolits" forum is mostly reloaders.

It's kinda like the fact that approximately 85% of LEO's are not gun people & aren't comfortable with even passing qualification. But the 15% who are gun people are the ones we really need to be working in our area.

My point,, gun forums are where more reloaders hang out. Other places,, more folks would likely enjoy your data. Might be why you get very little response to your VERY GENEROUS offer of the info.

 

[Hvymax]

I wound up using lil gun for my 300gr 1,650fps loads for my 1,000 yd "44 magnum" experiment. With the Pac Nor barrel they did 3/4" at 200yds and 8" at 1,000.

 

[vlavalle]

That number may be correct for if considering ALL gun owners. But if you look at the gun forums,, where people are active gun people,, I'm sure the numbers would be different. Heck,, the "cast boolits" forum is mostly reloaders.

It's kinda like the fact that approximately 85% of LEO's are not gun people & aren't comfortable with even passing qualification. But the 15% who are gun people are the ones we really need to be working in our area.

My point,, gun forums are where more reloaders hang out. Other places,, more folks would likely enjoy your data. Might be why you get very little response to your VERY GENEROUS offer of the info.

Well, if you want to restrict the gun ownership population to those just in gun forums, then the percentage that reload may indeed be bigger, but just listening to those that say they reload and somehow making that a certain percentage out of that is just mathematical folly. But from the web response, it seems like the 1%-5% is an overall value is fairly consistent. Keep in mind that (1) you need a place to do the reloads, (2) you are interested enough to put in the time to buy product and to do the reloads, (3) you shoot enough for the reloading to be worthwhile economically at some level. I think most gun owners do not fit into all three of these categories.

 

[Hvymax]

vlavalle,, many people reload & don't use factory ammo. As such,, many don't study ballistics or such stuff. They just want quick, cheap, easy or whatever info. That may be why not too many folks want a copy of your files.
I for one,, rarely shoot factory ammo. And often,, only if I've gotten some in a package deal, cheap, or whatever. I shoot it up as "plinking" stuff to get the brass for reloading using my handload data.

But if people don't care to reload,, but want a place to get data on factory stuff,, I'm sure your files would be very helpful.

I generally work up my loads until I reach my velocity/accuracy goals within the Do Not Exceed parameters. Then I scribble it on the boxes I put the rounds in. I usually only use available data for start/stop points shooting for groups over a Chrono as I go.

 

[woodperson]

Titegroup is available and works fine with cast bullets at around 900 fps.

 

[TheTexasRAT]

Issue is finding Unique in stock. Have looked on burn rate chart to see if I can go up or down and find a powder in stock that will work. Thks for offering file. I never see Me gettn real serious on loading pistol calibers. Thank You for the offer!! But the ballistics on Battleship big guns is different. I will send you a PM!!

It would be far better to look through load data to find other powder choices as opposed to any burn rate chart.