45 colt vs 357

[silverback]

I have been looking at the 45 colt as a viable SD weapon. I do reload so that won't be an issue.

I love the redhawk but a bear to lug around so I have been considering a Taurus model 450--- 2inch snub 45 colt offered prior to the judge etc.

I don't like the idea that the 45colt has to make that cylinder gap jump in the judge.

this leaves me with the model 450 or tracker 4 inch. Both are considerable less carry weight than the redhawk or even the security six.


so I have been looking at 45 colt loads.

I under stand that the 357 is the smaller more energy transfer vs the slow bigger hole of the 45 colt.

What is the real world difference between the 158 grain 1250 fps and the 45 colt doing about 850-900 fps?

I am looking at recoil, muzzle, blast, penetration soft and hard (barrier), wound channel etc.

Next would be a comparison of the 180 grain 357 vs the 45 colt 250 grain. heck I haven't heard of one but what about a 200 357 traveling about the 900 fps?
__________________

 

[Sagebrush Burns]

If you hit someone solid with either one, they will be in a world of hurt.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Ah , self defense against what ? Two legged felons , angry bears , or both ?

And not saying it's the main factor to your decision , but the velocities from.a 2in M450 will be a lot less than you stated. Like +/- 200fps lower.

 

[LaneP]

I would take either one for an SD handgun. My main priority would be how well I can conceal, draw and hit a potential adversary.

Just speaking for me, that's what I would base my decision on primarily. I think either properly loaded will end a deadly scenario quickly if the shooter does his part.

The most effective pistol cartridge is the one you can hit your opponent with reliably, accurately, and under extreme duress.

 

[stevemb]

I'd give the .357 the edge for barrier penetration, though bullet choice can negate some of that. I'll also give the edge to the .357 in muzzle blast, but not in a good way ! I think you can make the ole .45 work in this role. It's been there before. This from a guy with a .44spec Bulldog in his pocket. steve

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Very few choices for a double-action 45 Colt SD gun. Like you said, Redhawk, Judge, Governor, or older Taurus.

There are very few choices for 45 ACP or 44 Special or 41 Magnum either but when you get to 357 Magnum ther are many, many choices. That has got to tell you something.

 

[Bucks Owin]

.45 cal has "got 'er done" since 1873... Pretty good track record I'd say! :wink:

 

[WESHOOT2]

Hint; load a Penn Bullets 270g Thunderhead at 740--800fps.

SD ammo, defined :mrgreen:



Might be some data here: http://www.pennbullets.com under "Customer Comments: Penn Bullets Discussion On 1911 Forum" 8)

 

[Rclark]

I had to compromise as for around town the .44Spec Bulldog has the right form factor for CC SD, yet is a .4X round at sub-sonic velocites. I load 240g SWC in mine. In the woods though the .45 Colt is the go to cartridge for all my needs/wants as open carry/semi-concealed is not a problem. Big and slow (realitively) is the way to go is my thinking. The .357 is ten times louder than the .45 Colt if that is any concern to you too.

 

[DGW1949]

Which is "best" is related to "what are you going to use it for?

Me personaly; I've found that a "standard loaded" .45LC does anything that I'd need either to do...and...does it with less recoil, a lot less muzzel blast, and a lot less noise. That being the case, my ".357 Magnum's" are mostly just used for launching .38 Spl's these days. I find that to be a lot of fun.

DGW

 

[Bucks Owin]

I had to compromise as for around town the .44Spec Bulldog has the right form factor for CC SD, yet is a .4X round at sub-sonic velocites. I load 240g SWC in mine. In the woods though the .45 Colt is the go to cartridge for all my needs/wants as open carry/semi-concealed is not a problem. Big and slow (realitively) is the way to go is my thinking. The .357 is ten times louder than the .45 Colt if that is any concern to you too.

I kinda like those Bulldogs, wouldn't mind having one... :wink:

Kinda pricey at GB though...

 

[silverback]

Ah , self defense against what ? Two legged felons , angry bears , or both ?

And not saying it's the main factor to your decision , but the velocities from.a 2in M450 will be a lot less than you stated. Like +/- 200fps lower.

this would be intended for two legged felons. yes I know about using stock manufactured ammo for legal reasons, but I also want to reload and practice for SHTF situations...LOL!!!! I figured they may about 200 fps lower than a 4 inch barrel.

now I would like to load just one and used it in the 2 inch, 4 inch and rossi lever.

 

[silverback]

I had to compromise as for around town the .44Spec Bulldog has the right form factor for CC SD, yet is a .4X round at sub-sonic velocites. I load 240g SWC in mine. In the woods though the .45 Colt is the go to cartridge for all my needs/wants as open carry/semi-concealed is not a problem. Big and slow (realitively) is the way to go is my thinking. The .357 is ten times louder than the .45 Colt if that is any concern to you too.

this is what I have been thinking recently. then I stated to think couldn't I get s 200 grain 357 to go about 900? slow and big? I wander how the recoil would be and or if it would be worth the effort.

 

[silverback]

Which is "best" is related to "what are you going to use it for?

Me personaly; I've found that a "standard loaded" .45LC does anything that I'd need either to do...and...does it with less recoil, a lot less muzzel blast, and a lot less noise. That being the case, my ".357 Magnum's" are mostly just used for launching .38 Spl's these days. I find that to be a lot of fun.

DGW

by standard load are you referring to the cowboy loads of 750 fps?

yes the less recoil, muzzle blast and noise have been what is driving this train of thought. This would also lend itself to more practice , better accuracy etc.

 

[silverback]

Hint; load a Penn Bullets 270g Thunderhead at 740--800fps.

SD ammo, defined :mrgreen:






Might be some data here: http://www.pennbullets.com under "Customer Comments: Penn Bullets Discussion On 1911 Forum" 8)

thanks sent him an email with a couple of questions. the 200 grain 357 ....Hmmmm

 

[DGW1949]

Which is "best" is related to "what are you going to use it for?

Me personaly; I've found that a "standard loaded" .45LC does anything that I'd need either to do...and...does it with less recoil, a lot less muzzel blast, and a lot less noise. That being the case, my ".357 Magnum's" are mostly just used for launching .38 Spl's these days. I find that to be a lot of fun.

DGW

by standard load are you referring to the cowboy loads of 750 fps?

yes the less recoil, muzzle blast and noise have been what is driving this train of thought. This would also lend itself to more practice , better accuracy etc.

I'm glad that you asked that question.
In my own redneck terminology;
A "standard load" is what has been made by American ammo compananies since the switch to smokeless powder about a hunert years ago......namely, a .452/.454-250/255 lead bullet with enough powder to make it reach about 850 FPS (or so) when fired from a typical SA revolver. These types of loads are loaded to a SAAMI pressure standard, hence my calling them "standard loaded". I also apply that term to a handload which ballisticaly-duplicates those particular factory offerings.

As you have noted, a "cowboy load" is slower. Sometimes, it also has a lighter bullet. In either event though, at best, what ya got there is perty-much a copy of the original (rather anemic).44Spl load, only with a slightly fatter bullet.
That kinda tells me that that aint what I'd pick for SD.

DGW

 

[WESHOOT2]

I don't think you can run the .358" 200g slow enough to not through-n-through :shock:

Just too much sectional density.
Try a lighter wadcutter.

 

[silverback]

I don't think you can run the .358" 200g slow enough to not through-n-through :shock:

Just too much sectional density.
Try a lighter wadcutter.

you are correct sir: response from penn bullets.

apples and oranges. the .45s main advantage lies in its massive diameter and its ability to cause large damage from point of impact in. The .357 in cast would just provide a pencil hole with no expansion even though you would get deep penetration its not a good choice. In that case a high performance hollow point would still give you better self defense options especially when driven to mag levels. In real world tests calibers of .40 and above are your better performers especially with cast. For the .45 and low recoil look at the 225 gr WCBB bullet or if you want deep penetration and big diameter performance the 270 gr TH bullet.

 

[silverback]

interesting reading:

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/terminal.html

http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

 

[Bucks Owin]

FWIW, I keep my .45 stoked with a CCI shotshell followed by WW 225 gr HP. They crono around 830 fps and group near an inch @ 25 in my pistola... :wink:

 

[catfish621]

Since you handload you can warm up the .45 a little then there's no comparison. A .357 is usually a lighter package that would be easier to carry. Both will do the job well.

 

[Bucks Owin]

Since you handload you can warm up the .45 a little then there's no comparison. A .357 is usually a lighter package that would be easier to carry. Both will do the job well.

Know whatcha mean and agree, but I'd be a little leery of handloads for SD use. Not the reliability, but the notion of say for instance "prior intent to grieviously wound or maim" by some bottom feeder...

Maybe I'm wrong.... :?

 

[catfish621]

Hope not, that's all I shoot. Think I read somewhere that there has never been a case like that.

 

[silverback]

Hope not, that's all I shoot. Think I read somewhere that there has never been a case like that.

it gets my goat that we have to worry about what the lawyers might think or say. I want to be able to use what I load. Then again I would have hornady critical defense loaded for town carry. Now a SHTF situation would be dedicated to my hand loads.

 

[Bucks Owin]

Hope not, that's all I shoot. Think I read somewhere that there has never been a case like that.

it gets my goat that we have to worry about what the lawyers might think or say. I want to be able to use what I load. Then again I would have hornady critical defense loaded for town carry. Now a SHTF situation would be dedicated to my hand loads.

Oh absolutely!

In a SHTF scenario I will be concocting the nastiest ammo possible! Including a bullet coating with the intent to cause infection in case I'm a little off "center mass"... :wink: :twisted:

 

[pps]

.357 vs 45 colt...this is like being asked which of your kids is your favorite.

I just tested some Buffalo Bore with the 140 grain Barnes bullet. Barnes, though expensive, is one of the few factory loads that pushes 357 to its full potential. Here is the 5 shot group at 15 yards. A LOT of noise, a LOT of flames...but dammit, that's what I love about throttling up the 357 every once in a while. These cartridges chronographed 1550 fps out of the revolver, and 1995 out of my Marlin.

All that being said of the 357, how can you not love the 45 LC (I refer to it as the "Linebaugh=Colt") that CAN spit a 325 grain boolit at 1300fps...though my most accurate load is at 1100fps with HS-6

 

[silverback]

well guys while I was doing the research I came across a deal that I couldn't pass up. Used but in super condition .

http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=230&category=Revolver&toggle=&breadcrumbseries=

I just went out to the range to test fire the model 450 and all I can say is where has this gun been hiding.

Off the shelf ammo:

magtech 200 gr 705 fps

hornady 255 cowboy 725 fps

Winchester silver tip HP 225 at 920 fps.




the magtech shot like a 22 lr.

the hornady a little more in the hand but nothing to speak off.

The Winchester not much more that the Hornady but you could tell it was moving faster.

All of them much softer that the 357 in any barrel length.

I didn't have a target and I wasn't looking for accuracy just felt recoil. After realizing this gun shoots like a podwer puff. I was able to hit grape fruit size targets at will from about 20 yards at will.

I am stoked.

I have been searching for this kind of soft shooting, big lead throwing, easy carrying weapon for a long time

I wish I could find another one. I am going to have to start scouring the web. I have finally found my carry gun. now to just build a stash of shells and start loading.

 

[catfish621]

I loaded the 270saa form rcbs with 13 gr. of hs-6. Gun loved it. Averaged around 1100 fps and shot thru most anything.

 

[WESHOOT2]

you are correct sir

Printed that out; showed the wife :mrgreen:

 

[silverback]

you are correct sir

Printed that out; showed the wife :mrgreen:

Too funny!! Got to get appreciation when and where you can.

Hey got back from another range session with the 450. I left wandering why these didn't take off in the market. what a great light carrying gun. I am being swayed to the dark side. My girlfriend was more than happy shooting it and was just as surprised as I with how easy it is to shoot.


now my ruger's are going to have to go on the chopping block as I need the cash to convert to 45 colt. I am sold!!! I have jumped into the kool aide and there is no coming back.

I always new I liked bigger slugs but nothing ever appealed to me like these light carrying DA/SA's.

Oh well now I have to take bunches of pics and start with the adds.