Perplexing 45 colt

[Cal30 1906]

Here's a question that's been bothering me for a while: RE the Redhawk that accepts moon-clipped 45acp and 45Colt from the same cylinder.
To make room for a moon clip, the cylinder face needs to be shaved down on the inside by some amount, say "x". Then when a 45Colt is chambered, there would be a bit of the case, "x" worth, that us unsupported toward the centerline of the cylinder.
1) Is this analysis correct?
2) If so, when shooting heavy 45Colt loads, might we get a "Ruger Smile" in the base of the case, like those reported for Glock shooting +P+ 40S&W ?

I have never had an issue with the hot loads in any brand of brass. I have never even had to discard a single piece of brass either. Your question is definitely one I was concerned with as well. My loads push a 310 grain cast at 1200 fps and show zero signs of what you describe and the case extraction of all 6 also show no signs of over pressure. The primers look good as well.

 

[vlavalle]

The only ones made for that is the model 5032 now discontinued and the newer model 5050 they are with the 4.2 barrel and both have the round butt. If the model you are looking at has a square butt it will be 45 Colt only.
Jack Huntington in Reno Nevada will ream the face of the cylinder so you can shoot 45 acp. Not all moon clips are the same thickness so you would need to know what he reamed for and he's done enough of them he'd specify which thickness of moon clip you would need. In my factory model 5032 I have to use Ruger moon clips that are thin or I would need to shave them down. I have a Smith model 625JM in 45 acp and the moon clips are not interchange between them.

Thank you fir your response and clarification. How do I contact Jack Huntington? I would like to talk to him before buying my new Ruger .45 Redhawk.

 

[Cal30 1906]

Thank you fir your response and clarification. How do I contact Jack Huntington? I would like to talk to him before buying my new Ruger .45 Redhawk.

Im not sure how to contact him other than a Google search .
Possibly Huntington specialties??

 

[Cal30 1906]

Im not sure how to contact him other than a Google search .
Possibly Huntington specialties??

JRH advanced gunsmithing...
I think?
I've heard nothing but good on his modifications

 

[GYJ44]

Jack is retiring.

Contact TK Custom for moon clip mods.

 

[s4s4u]

Jack is retiring.

Contact TK Custom for moon clip mods.

Was going to mention this as well. I don't think Jack is enlisting any new work.

 

[vlavalle]

JRH advanced gunsmithing...
I think?
I've heard nothing but good on his modifications

Thank you! I found them in Sparks/Carson City, Nevada, off of I-80. (775)355-6898 No email.

 

[ChrisL]

1) Yes, but...
2) The unsupported portion of the case (~.040") is smaller than the thickness of the solid brass case head, so as long as your load is under the flow stress of hardened cartridge brass (~70ksi)*, you will not ever have an issue with brass deformation in this area.

*Note: ~70ksi is the general flow stress of hardened cartridge brass, not a comment on the max pressure of any cartridge in any firearm. Sort of like a universal speed limit, brass becomes "single use" when loaded to this pressure level (whether or not firearm can handle it).

Thanks for the reply/explanation. Do you know an approximate PSI level that would achieve this brass flow?

 

[Cal30 1906]

Thanks for the reply/explanation. Do you know an approximate PSI level that would achieve this brass flow?

For that to happen it would probably be inexcess of 65k or more i would imagine????
I'm running a load of H110 that is 2 grains over any book and neither the brass or revolver has any issues at all.
If you want to play with the hot stuff approach it slowly.
I think my load is running @40k psi according to several well known authors that I conversed with personally that were doing it themselves. The information is out there but the old timers that pioneered the really hot ++p 45 Colt loads are passing pretty quickly.
Tim Sundles who owns Buffalo bore ammo in Salmon idaho is actually a wealth of knowledge, I have conversed with him on occasion and he doesn't divulge specifics on his loads but I do know he actually handloads his products himself most likely on a single stage press and uses his own firearms to shoot them. I assume he sends prototypes to whoever and has them tested before he sets up his automated loaders for mass production. He has very specific notations on what firearms are capable of handling them. I have a summer place not far from him and I'm hoping to visit him this summer. He seriously does know what he is doing with his ammo.

 

[NikA]

Thanks for the reply/explanation. Do you know an approximate PSI level that would achieve this brass flow?

Cartridge brass is alloy 260.

Unless someone has made a mistake and annealed the case head, it should be at least half-hard (H02) and may be 3/4-hard (H03).

H02 has a yield stress (starts to deform) of ~52ksi (52,000 psi) and a ultimate tensile strength (start of runaway deformation/failure) of 62-65ksi.

H03 is a little harder, yield around 60ksi, tensile around 70ksi.

Case head deformation doesn't become an issue until load pressure is on the high end of rifle pressures.

 

[vlavalle]

Cartridge brass is alloy 260.

Unless someone has made a mistake and annealed the case head, it should be at least half-hard (H02) and may be 3/4-hard (H03).

H02 has a yield stress (starts to deform) of ~52ksi (52,000 psi) and a ultimate tensile strength (start of runaway deformation/failure) of 62-65ksi.

H03 is a little harder, yield around 60ksi, tensile around 70ksi.

Case head deformation doesn't become an issue until load pressure is on the high end of rifle pressures.

Wow! Sounds like someone knows something here!

 

[vlavalle]

For that to happen it would probably be inexcess of 65k or more i would imagine????
I'm running a load of H110 that is 2 grains over any book and neither the brass or revolver has any issues at all.
If you want to play with the hot stuff approach it slowly.
I think my load is running @40k psi according to several well known authors that I conversed with personally that were doing it themselves. The information is out there but the old timers that pioneered the really hot ++p 45 Colt loads are passing pretty quickly.
Tim Sundles who owns Buffalo bore ammo in Salmon idaho is actually a wealth of knowledge, I have conversed with him on occasion and he doesn't divulge specifics on his loads but I do know he actually handloads his products himself most likely on a single stage press and uses his own firearms to shoot them. I assume he sends prototypes to whoever and has them tested before he sets up his automated loaders for mass production. He has very specific notations on what firearms are capable of handling them. I have a summer place not far from him and I'm hoping to visit him this summer. He seriously does know what he is doing with his ammo.

Tim and his wife have been putting on lots of YouTube tutorials about ammo and their guns, especially on the .45 calibers (.45 ACP, .45 Colt,. 454 Casual, 45-70). His goal is to clear up most of the BS THAT EXISTS online (as we have seen so much even here in this forum), and he is doing a great job of that too! I have watched most of his videos.

 

[vlavalle]

Here's a question that's been bothering me for a while: RE the Redhawk that accepts moon-clipped 45acp and 45Colt from the same cylinder.
To make room for a moon clip, the cylinder face needs to be shaved down on the inside by some amount, say "x". Then when a 45Colt is chambered, there would be a bit of the case, "x" worth, that us unsupported toward the centerline of the cylinder.
1) Is this analysis correct?
2) If so, when shooting heavy 45Colt loads, might we get a "Ruger Smile" in the base of the case, like those reported for Glock shooting +P+ 40S&W ?

As i understand the moon clip for the Ruger .45/.45 ACP GUNS, THE MOON LIP PROVIDED IS NARROW ENOUGH TO NOT OBSTRUCT THE CYLINDER FROM SPINNING, AND THAT THERE IS NO INDENTATION ON THE RUGER CYLINDER. I DO NOT OWN SUCH A GUN YET, BUT THIS IS MY UNDERSTANDING. Some gun manufacturers do put the small indent for the moon clip on th cylibnder. It is for this very reason, that you must know what moon clips work on what gun, and it is not just any moon clip.

 

[GYJ44]

His goal is to clear up most of the BS THAT EXISTS online (as we have seen so much even here in this forum.....

Like using large frame loads in a medium frame gun?

 

[vlavalle]

Like using large frame loads in a medium frame gun?

Only partly. He concentrates a lot more on what ammo to use for what purpose, showing the exact ammo with close ups on the ammo boxes, including the bullet type, and secondarily what gun to fire them in/from. He shows us half a dozen revolvers when he is talking about revolvers, and in other videos, he shows half a dozen pistols when he is talking about pistols, which he dose not do a lot of. He goes hunting or camping a lot, and his choice of handgun carry is almost always a revolver. Pistols are either too weak or a tad bit unreliable (his words).

 

[PRichardson87]

 

[vlavalle]

???

 

[Powercat]

I am in search of a medium frame revolver that could be chambered in this 5 Shot 45 Schofield configuration. This would be in keeping with the 15k pressure limit of Saami-rated 44 Spl, 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 Cowboy Special rounds. I envision something along the lines of the original Bulldog, but with a chamber/barrel for 45 caliber. I would prefer the chamber to exclude 45 Colt to eliminate the possibility of +P loadings. I have seen the Charter 45 Colt and 45 ACP guns, but they use the XL frame, which is too large for my liking. The one that intrigues me the most is the no longer made Taurus 450T made in Titanium. If the chamber was modified to only chamber 45 Schofield and the barrel lengthened to 3 inches, it would "fill the bill". Any gun that was chambered in 44 Spl or 357 Mag would handle the pressure limits if the dimensions could be made to fit. Most guns made for 45 Colt are larger than needed because of the liability from factory and handloaded ammo above Saami spec. What purpose would this provide? Same old argument, .429 vs .452 bullet.

 

[GYJ44]

Most guns made for 45 Colt are larger than needed because of the liability from factory and handloaded ammo above Saami spec.

That's just not true. There is no liability in using handloads or out of spec ammo. If there was, the New Vaquero and mid-frame Blackhawk never would've been. They're bigger than you want because the cartridge is bigger. Just get the .44Spl and enjoy the easy use of factory defensive ammo.

 

[gnappi]

My rocks and dynamite barn burner loading era is long behind me. After I beat an early .44 magnum Redhawk nearly to death* I found more joy in my 629's, and Super Blackhawks.

That said shooting the boomers I do have (all start with a 4 except my .50 JRE) I'm perfectly content to use standard load manual max loads with, a .44 mag, .50 special in the JRE, and no longer use "for Ruger only loads".

I hope newer manuals cleared up the "for Ruger only" load info to reflect that does not mean a Ruger mid frame and possibly include BFR, Anaconda, and Freedom Arms capable models.

* My .44 loads were so hot the firing pin DENTED / cupped the transfer bar into the cup shaped recess in the hammer, and after replacing the transfer bar I abused it some more and found that the forcing cone was beyond use because it couldn't hit a cow at 100 yards.

 

[DGW1949]

There really ain't much point in pushing a .45-Colt carbine that hard...But if you just gotta, me thinks that you'll get a more harmonious outcome if you ditch the H110 and look for some Alliant 2400....
And FWIW, You do know that one can could buy a Rossi-92 that is already proofed for .454 Mag and save the wear 'n tear on that Winchester, right?

DGW

 

[Cal30 1906]

There really ain't much point in pushing a .45-Colt carbine that hard...But if you just gotta, me thinks that you'll get a more harmonious outcome if you ditch the H110 and look for some Alliant 2400....
And FWIW, You do know that one can could buy a Rossi-92 that is already proofed for .454 Mag and save the wear 'n tear on that Winchester, right?

DGW

I have one of those Rossi 454s, I tried a few full power 454s in it and it was fine with them but I went down to ++p 45 Colts with cast 315 bullets. The average 1600 and its a hammer. I saw no need to proceed with 454 ammunition.

 

[DGW1949]

I have one of those Rossi 454s, I tried a few full power 454s in it and it was fine with them but I went down to ++p 45 Colts with cast 315 bullets. The average 1600 and its a hammer. I saw no need to proceed with 454 ammunition.

I hear ya...After a while, enough is enough no matter how tuff you are.
I used an old Interarms Rossi-'92 in .45LC for hunting East Texas deer and hogs for years. All I ever loaded in it was a soft-cast 250-ish LSWC over 8.5 Unique. Never once did I put a good hit on anything that didn't go down and stay down....Good guns, them are. And I've always said that even a factory loaded .45-Colt cartridge had way more power than it's paper ballistics suggested.

DGW