45 Colt 100 yard performance.

[andyo5]

I recently mounted a 2x Leupold scope my 7 1/2" Bisley. I am somewhat confused by the results I have been getting.
I am resting the frame and the butt of the gun on bags, and shooting at an NRA Official 25 yard slow fire pistol target, at 100 yards. At this distance the cross hairs can still be seen to center in the black bull.
My results so far are:
GOOD:
250g soft lead (14BRNL) RNFP over 8.5 grains of Unique - 6 rounds into 4.25"
250g Hornaday XTP over 20.5g of H110, mag primer - 5 rounds into 2 inches and one flier about 4" away (probably my fault)

LESS GOOD:
250g soft lead RNFP over 20g of 2400, standard primer - 5 rounds into about 4.5" and one round off the paper
250g Hornaday XTP over 20g of 2400, std primer - 6 rounds into about 10 inches
250g XTP over 18g of 2400, std primer - 5 rounds into 6", one off the paper

BAD:
250g XTP over 20g or 2400, mag primer - all over the place, only 4 on the paper
250g lead soft RNFP over 21g of H110, mag primer - 5 rounds into about 10 inches, one off the paper
255g Lasercast SWC over 20.5g H110, mag primer - 4 rounds into about 12 inches, two off the paper
250g soft RNFP over 20g of 2400, mag primer - all over the place, only 3 on the paper
255g Lasercast SWC over 13g of HS6 - all over the place, 4 on the paper (I have shot 1.5" groups at 25 yards with this load!!).
255g Lasercast SWC over 18g of 2400, std primer - no pattern at all
255g Lasercast SWC ocer 9.5g of Unique - random group with only 4 rounds on paper.

The surprises were how well the 250g RNFP did at standard velocity, and how poorly the Lasercast SWC did with every load I tried. I am beginning to think that lead bullets will only perform accurately at standard velocity.
Another surprise was the 2" group with the XTP and H110. I guess my gun likes this bullet!

I was hoping to find an accurate load at higher velocity with lead bullets. So far, no dice.
Any thoughts?

Thanks.

 

[greenmtnguy]

Do you have a chronograph?
IF the lead bullets are truly 14 BHN and not gas checked (or maybe even if they are) it still might be too soft and might be stripping on the rifling if your MV is approaching 1100 FPS or north of that figure, and 20 grains will push a 250gn XTP in my 7.5" Blackhawk to 1150 FPS.

If you don't have a chronograph, I'd step up the Unique load in .2 gr increments or so, from 8.5 up to about 9.5 grains and watch your group size. That bullet will may tighten up a bit in group size and then start expanding again. But, that will probably cover the velocity range limit you can push the RNFP at. I don't know the specifics of the Lasercast SWC, but I would only use a standard primer in the loads with 2400 powder - it doesn't need a magnum primer, and I'd try picking just one powder at a time to experiment with the Lasercast bullet. Even if it is Unique, and run it from 8.5 to 9.5 grains first to see how that goes. Then start lower with either 2400 (maybe 17 gr) or HS-6 (12 gr ?) and work up from there.

Not sure what to say about the XTP bullet and 2400, with my Blackhawk that bullet and 19.8 grains of 2400 in a Starline case will just about make one ragged hole if I do my part, but it definitely has some recoil to it. Once you find the sweet spot for the gun and the bullet with 2400, it really works great.

Lastly, I don't rest the butt of the grip on anything (but my shooting is limited to 50 yards) as the upward/rocking recoil of the SA frame really tends to make things go high off the paper or not stay consistent, depending upon how straight (or not) the gun's movement is from contacting at that point - the smallest deviation could cause you to throw a shot.

These are just my humble opinions and are probably worth what you paid for them.

 

[AEROCOLOR]

I agree with the above post. I never rest the butt of the revolver. Seems to imput deflection under recoil.
Try it with a sandbag under the barrel only.
I`d be interested to know the results as your test rounds using 2400 should do very well if loaded properly. They always are tack drivers in my .44 Mag loads.

Bill

 

[Smee781]

Have you checked the cylinder throats? Could need to be opened up a little? I also never rest the but of the gun when shooting from a rest.

 

[glw3151]

Before any more load experimentation and revolver shooting technique, I would address the cylinder throats, need to be .4525", I would check for any tightness/ restriction in the bore where the barrel is screwed into the frame. Possible firelapping candidate and the trigger. Once I was satisfied with the above, I would address my revolver shooting technique. I believe load development is last. Just a side note, jacketed projectile loading is relatively straight forward; neck tension, load density, matching powder to projectile to the task at hand, matching primers and powder, etc. Cast projectiles are a different cat.

 

[andyo5]

Before any more load experimentation and revolver shooting technique, I would address the cylinder throats, need to be .4525", I would check for any tightness/ restriction in the bore where the barrel is screwed into the frame. Possible firelapping candidate and the trigger. Once I was satisfied with the above, I would address my revolver shooting technique. I believe load development is last. Just a side note, jacketed projectile loading is relatively straight forward; neck tension, load density, matching powder to projectile to the task at hand, matching primers and powder, etc. Cast projectiles are a different cat.

Throats are reamed. That was the frist thing I did, before shooting it.

 

[greenmtnguy]

And, based on the group size of your RNFP Unique round, I didn't think that you had a throat issue to contend with, or not a significant one anyway. The XTP bullet load issue isn't throats either - I suspect things will improve for you significantly just by changing how you hold & steady the revolver - if you use something to rest the barrel on, make sure it isn't likely to be ignited. I usually grip the gun with 2 hands and rest my forearms near the wrist on the sandbags.

 

[s4s4u]

I never rest the butt of the revolver.

Never, never, and never.

 

[Bucks Owin]

10X to above... :wink:

When my eyes were still up to it and I was doing a LOT of benchresting with a 10" .44 FT, I could put 5 rds into 6-8" @ 150 yds. Barrel on bags, butt in hands on bench....

(Watch your pinkie! :lol: )

PS: At that range, the groups tend to string vertical, not horizontal... :wink:

PPS: Most accurate cast loads were not "full tilt" but not far from it be it PB or GC FWIW

 

[Rclark]

I would agree with above on 'no butt (of gun) on the bench' . At that distance, gripping strength and anything that retards the recoil 'differently' is going to throw the shot off. You know, I've found leaning my arm against a post, most times I'll do better than trying to actually 'bench' it just because of 'consistent' hold. I've found the HS-6 load under 255g SWC to be a good load too... But like you I think the max 'on paper' I've tried is 25Y, but I could ding the steel out there at 77Y (back of bay) no problem. This summer I might have to try to go to rifle range and put some on paper.... Although I don't do the scope thingy, it would be open sights.... And with my eye-sight .... Got me curious though.

Your scope is still tight? Is'nt changing on you, randomly? Just a thought too.

 

[andyo5]

I would agree with above on 'no butt (of gun) on the bench' . At that distance, gripping strength and anything that retards the recoil 'differently' is going to throw the shot off. You know, I've found leaning my arm against a post, most times I'll do better than trying to actually 'bench' it just because of 'consistent' hold. I've found the HS-6 load under 255g SWC to be a good load too... But like you I think the max 'on paper' I've tried is 25Y, but I could ding the steel out there at 77Y (back of bay) no problem. This summer I might have to try to go to rifle range and put some on paper.... Although I don't do the scope thingy, it would be open sights.... And with my eye-sight .... Got me curious though.

Your scope is still tight? Is'nt changing on you, randomly? Just a thought too.

Scope is still tight. Hasn't budged even slightly.
Thanks for your reply.

 

[mike campbell]

Throats are reamed. That was the frist thing I did, before shooting it.

And, someday, like many others, you'll be touting the necessity of messing with the throats without ever knowing whether they were fine to begin with. :wink:

As to technique, I'll go one step further. Not only should you not rest the butt, but I suggest you not let the barrel touch anything either,. Try stacking up some sand bags so you can rest your wrists on the rear bag and jam the front of the frame/cylinder into the front bags with the barrel hanging in space. It may or may not help, but almost certainly it won't hurt.

A "rabbit ear" bag is good for this, but even cutting a triangular notch in a block of wood will work. Resting the barrel gives good support for precision sighting in the vertical direction but can disrupt the barrel harmonics with longer barrels. Whereas wedging the frame and cylinder makes the gun incredibly secure against rocking and canting. Give it a try.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Another surprise was the 2" group with the XTP and H110. I guess my gun likes this bullet!

But the groups with 2400 weren't quite that good. Your gun does seem to like that one combination. I bet that turns out to be the 'gold standard'.

 

[GunHawk]

First off I'm just starting to handload so I really don't have any useful advise. But isn't 2 inches at 100 yards with a 7.5 inch barrel pretty good?

 

[s4s4u]

But isn't 2 inches at 100 yards with a 7.5 inch barrel pretty good?

Yes it is.

 

[Joe S.]

I've only shot cast with my 45. 300 grains at 100 yards pushed by 21.5 gr of W296 and standard primers got me about 2.5"-3" groups. Best group i've gotten. That was with a Mihec penta hp. Them things are deer hammers!

 

[Seancass]

How many groups did you fire with each load? I'd try them more than once before passing judgement. Also can make a big difference to change target style, size, color and range.

Two weeks ago I was shooting with a Hunter at 50 yards shooting at a standard slowfire "25 yard" pistol target and couldn't hit squat. Noticed someone left a bright pink target on the 100 yard line untouched, so I threw three shots at it which landed in 2.5". I'm really starting to think that the brown paper they use in that target is messing with my eyes and alignment.

Since you're happy with the gun and at least one bullet, I'd start by getting as much info as possible about that LaserCast slug. actual diameter? Measure several, look for anomalies and out of round. Weigh 5-10 of them and make sure they all weigh the same. Maybe try another bullet and a different bullet weight.

I'm a little curious as to what your solution ends up being. I know it sucks when you buy the quality bullet(like Laser Cast) and then it doesn't shoot!

 

[Boxhead]

Are those groups the average of five or more groups?

 

[WESHOOT2]

Try a Cast Performance or Beartooth lead bullet?

 

[andyo5]

Are those groups the average of five or more groups?

Not an average, but an aggregate of 6 shots. The maximum distance between any 2 of them.

 

[varminter22]

But isn't 2 inches at 100 yards with a 7.5 inch barrel pretty good?

IMHO that is incredibly good! Don't think I've ever heard of or seen a handgun group of 2" @ 100 yds.

 

[andyo5]

But isn't 2 inches at 100 yards with a 7.5 inch barrel pretty good?

IMHO that is incredibly good! Don't think I've ever heard of or seen a handgun group of 2" @ 100 yds.

To recap, five of the six were within 2" of each other. The sixth was a flier, about 4" away. I think I probably pulled that shot.

 

[varminter22]

In my opinion, that is still super!

Everyone is familiar with MOA - minute of angle - as we use the term a lot in rifle shooting.

Ross Seyfried once wrote about and coined the term "MOHA" - "minute of handgun angle", meaning one inch per 10 yds. And it makes sense, at least with iron sighted handguns. A 2.5" group at 25 yds is pretty good with a iron sights. Some handguns will do better than that, but many won't.

I don't shoot optical sighted handguns, but I would be tickled to shoot 100 yd groups like yours. Or even 50 yd groups with iron sights.

 

[GIL]

Unfortunately I can't post a single word that will help the OP, but I have certainly learned what one of my bad habits is............ Yes, I have been resting the but as well as the barrel. Good reading here!

 

[andyo5]

In my opinion, that is still super!

I don't shoot optical sighted handguns, but I would be tickled to shoot 100 yd groups like yours. Or even 50 yd groups with iron sights.

Yes, I am tickled. I have two loads that shoot well in that gun at 100 yards. A third that is just 'OK' and several that did poorly in contrast to what I expected.
The scope is a Leupold 2x handgun scope that I obtained with purchase of a used XP-100 maybe 15 years ago. I took it off the XP and stored it in a shoe box until this year, when I decided to mount on my Bisley. I'm glad I did!

 

[GIL]

How many groups did you fire with each load? I'd try them more than once before passing judgement. Also can make a big difference to change target style, size, color and range.

Two weeks ago I was shooting with a Hunter at 50 yards shooting at a standard slowfire "25 yard" pistol target and couldn't hit squat. Noticed someone left a bright pink target on the 100 yard line untouched, so I threw three shots at it which landed in 2.5". I'm really starting to think that the brown paper they use in that target is messing with my eyes and alignment.

Since you're happy with the gun and at least one bullet, I'd start by getting as much info as possible about that LaserCast slug. actual diameter? Measure several, look for anomalies and out of round. Weigh 5-10 of them and make sure they all weigh the same. Maybe try another bullet and a different bullet weight.

I'm a little curious as to what your solution ends up being. I know it sucks when you buy the quality bullet(like Laser Cast) and then it doesn't shoot!

My weak azz eyes LOVE neon targets, but I can't get a white tail to stand still long enough in the summer to paint neon targets on them! LOL

I thought about using a paintball gun in the summer with permanent paint to see if that helps. ROFL.

On a serious note though, I came to a sad realization the 1st time I got to put my Burris on a whitetail and realized the neon 2"x2" square bulls eye was not there. The poor little guy was only 35-40yds out, I aimed for the typical rib / lung shot and ended up shooting him in the neck. That was the luckiest 'missed' shot in my life.
I slowly squeezed, hammer dropped, deer stood up on hind legs and fell over dead in his tracks. I thought I had the perfect shot until I couldn't find the bullet hole and then found the huge opening 1/2 way up his neck! I guess I should be thankful for luck, but still beat myself up for the terrible shot! I pulled the Hunter off of target approx. 18-24" to shoot him in the neck. Talk about a terrible shot!!!

 

[Bucks Owin]

Yep, EXCELLENT shooting amigo! 8)

Wish I still had eyes like yours must be...

 

[andyo5]

I took the gun out to the range this morning. At the rifle range section, we have a group of hanging steel targets at various distances. At 100 yards, there are several heavy steel targets about 10" in diameter and a thinner, gopher shaped target that is about the size of an actual gopher.
I found that with my XTP/H110 load, I could make that gopher swing on almost every shot.

 

[andyo5]

Yep, EXCELLENT shooting amigo! 8)

Wish I still had eyes like yours must be...

Actually, Buck, my eyesight is not so hot nowadays; which is the reason that I put a scope on my Bisley. I have developed wet macular degeneration in my right eye, which is the dominant one. This creates an area of distortion in accordance to the area of the retina that is affected. Luckily for me, the distortion is off-center, in the upper right quadrant.
I am also far sighted now, so iron sights are more difficult for me to use. I counter this by shooting with prescription lineless bifocals, tilting my head backwards to get a good view of the sights. Of course, when I can see the sight clearly the target is a blur.
Getting old sucks. But when you consider the alternative, maybe it's not so bad after all.

 

[jrod]

Andyo5, I also use Bi-Focals now. You gotta be tough to get old! LOL! For shooting I had my Bi-Focals done upside down; Now I just tilt my head down a little to see my front sight clearly. Works out pretty good.