45/70 and Unique

[volshooter]

My Speer manual list a 17gr. load for the 400gr. I have a supply of 340gr WFP hard cast I'd like to use up(they were bought for a .454 I no longer have).
Does anyone have experience here? Does the powder need a wad or filler? Whole lot of case. I'm weary I guess because of my life long use of WW296 and the warnings of dangerous "flash over".
I have 5 pounds of Unique unopened. I have and could use the lead over 50-70 gr of FF for my trapdoor.
Thanks, Rick

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I don't think you have to worry about too little Unique as it is used in 'cowboy' shooting a lot. If you have enough powder to get the bullet out of the barrel I think you should be ok. Where you position the powder prior to shooting might have some effect on the velocity of any small load.

 

[Bucks Owin]

If your 340 gr are the correct size for a .454 Casull they are too small for .45/70 use...

I'm surprised EGO (short for jimbo357) didn't know that!?! :shock:

.454 Casull uses .452"

.45/70 uses .458" :wink:

Paperpatch perhaps?

 

[greenmtnguy]

Lead bullets for your 45/70 should ideally be sized .458 - .460 to work well and properly engage the rifling. If your bullets are for a 45 caliber handgun (~.452 - .454) like Bucks said you'll probably have to consider paper patching it or something to avoid them rattling down the bore.

I don't have enough Unique on hand to use in my powder puff loads for 45/70, but I find that Trail Boss does work quite nicely - though also a bit pricey.

 

[tsubaki]

The 46th Edition Lyman book does have Unique listed for Trapdoor, 1895 Marlin and Ruger pressures.
For the Trapdoor 11.0gr to 15.0gr with a 405 jacketed bullet, no wad listed.

For the Marlin 1895 12.0gr to 15.0gr with a 293gr cast alloy bullet and 9.5gr to 14.5gr with a 322gr cast alloy bullet and 11.0gr to 13.5gr with a 420gr cast alloy bullet. All three of these loads list using a 1/2gr Dacron wad, 5/8"x1/4" thick over the powder.

The Ruger load is 12.5gr to 17.5gr with a 322gr cast alloy bullet and the Dacron wad.

Oh and see if you can drop one of those 454 bullets down the barrel.
I know a .452 will barely touch the rifling of my 45/70.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I'm surprised EGO (short for jimbo357) didn't know that!?! :shock:

I don't claim to smarter than anyone else but I do have an opinion about some things once in a while.
I also don't go around trying to put somebody down all the time either. Grow up 'Goat Roper' Bucks Owin. :?

 

[volshooter]

I've been reloading since the 70's and I didn't catch the .458!!!!
I have used these bullets in my trapdoor but even test for accuracy.
I have close to 1000 of the WFP's and the boxes say sized .429. They are to heavy for my New Vaquero. Might look into a new mold. Could melt them down and add lead to soften them up. I might also look into paper patching them for the Trapdoor. I know nothing about paper patching, might be fun.

 

[Mtneer]

I've been reloading since the 70's and I didn't catch the .458!!!!
I have used these bullets in my trapdoor but even test for accuracy.
I have close to 1000 of the WFP's and the boxes say sized .429. They are to heavy for my New Vaquero. Might look into a new mold. Could melt them down and add lead to soften them up. I might also look into paper patching them for the Trapdoor. I know nothing about paper patching, might be fun.

Okay, now I'm lost, what did I miss? I thought you said in your OP that you bought the WFPs for use in your .454, which you no longer have. Yet it says on the boxes they're "sized .429." Something's not adding up - .429" sized bullets will probably work in a .44 Mag or .44 Special, but probably not worth a darn in a .45 Colt or .454 Casull, much less a .45/70.

Yeah, paper patching might be fun. But from what I've read about it, it doesn't work well unless your rifle's throat was designed for paper-patched bullets. Just what I've read - no personal experience.

 

[tsubaki]

I have close to 1000 of the WFP's and the boxes say sized .429. They are to heavy for my New Vaquero. Might look into a new mold. Could melt them down and add lead to soften them up.

Figure out just what you do have and you may be able to trade them to someone for something useable to you.

 

[volshooter]

Mtneer you are right! I have gone off and finally lost my mind! :shock: :shock:
After reading the post about.458dia. I quickly looked at the boxes, the wrong boxes. The ones I looked at before my last post were WFP's for sure but 290gr for my 44 mag, not even the bullets I posted about. I truly am sorry for my stupidity.
I am ashamed of myself. I didn't even bother to put on my reading glasses when I checked, probably wouldn't have made any difference the way this week has been. Late last night I, with my glasses, checked again and realized my error. The bullets I asked about in the OP are plainly stated "sized .458". I got my caliper out and checked half a dozen of them. I got a reading of .457-.458.
I used to buy my hard cast from a feller in West TN. I deer hunted close to his home base. To many times I would bring back boxes of his fine product. He introduced me to hard cast. We shot some together and I was impressed with his WFP's and loads. Dangit I bought a couple of hundred pounds over 2 or 3 years. He was giving me a real deal since there was no shipping involved and once I helped him unload after he returned from a gun show. I am a hoarder and don't have any ideal even what I have. I do have a lot of boxes of WFP's for .357 to .454. I found 2000 CCI large pistol primers still in the bag yesterday. Bought at a gun show who knows when and never put away. Going to a show today, I will try to keep my hands in my dumbass pockets.
Thank you once again!

 

[Jimbo357mag]

...so .458dia is good and the loading info tsubaki gave you should do it. The 1/2gr Dacron wad, 5/8"x1/4" thick over the powder sounds like a good idea.

 

[Mtneer]

Ha! That’s funny volshooter. :lol:
No problems though. It sounds like something I’d do (have done). We once drove 80 miles to a “Going Out Of Business” sale at a sporting goods store. I read .358” HBWC on a box of 1,000 bullets, but what I got home with was 1,000, .314” HBWC bullets. The truth be known, I probably paid more attention to the big ass sign that said; “Closeout – All Reloading Components 75% Off Marked Price.”
It worked out okay though. A couple of years later I acquired a little .32 H&R Mag, and those .314” diameter wadcutters work well in it for light, plinking loads.
Oh yeah - I’m a hoarder too.

 

[Bucks Owin]

I'm surprised EGO (short for jimbo357) didn't know that!?! :shock:

I don't claim to smarter than anyone else but I do have an opinion about some things once in a while.
I also don't go around trying to put somebody down all the time either. Grow up 'Goat Roper' Bucks Owin. :?

Yeah, your opinion was Unique should be fine to launch a .452" bullet down a .458" barrel... :roll:

My suggestion to you is to practice a little reading comprehension before you leap in with your vast "expertise". :wink:

Goat roper?!?...Why EGO...I am shocked at you! :shock: :lol:

 

[volshooter]

Even with my hands in my pockets I still bought 1000 CCI small pistol primers for $32. A good deal and uhhh I still have a unopened pack of a 1000. Still good price round here right now. Bass pro sells 100 for close to $6.
I have been trying to use up the older "dirty burning" Unique in 45 colts but that powder goes a long ways. I have 2 pounds of the newer cleaner burning Unique that as of right now I don't think I will ever get to use.
Few years ago a older friend sold me his stock of WW296...all 18 pounds. :shock:
He only asked $50 for the lot 8) . He said he was to old to shoot anymore much less reload.
Met a guy in the early 80's that shot at big pistol matches in his younger days. I bought a truck load of stuff from him. He had over a hundred pounds of linotype lead left from a printing press.
Where would I look for the wads to keep that Unique close to the primer? With the new TC Encore barrel it would be nice to use up some of the lead/powder for fun. I'd like to buy a Marlin in 45/70 but I ain't laying down $700+ for another play toy till after the election.

 

[greenmtnguy]

I know some folks will chamfer a case mouth until it is sharp, and use it as a cutter to cut out some milk carton or cereal box paper to use as wads in 45Colt snake loads. Same idea might work for keeping unique down near the primer in a 45/70 case, maybe with a bit of pufflon or dacron?

 

[keyston44]

One of my favorite loads for my Marlin Guide Gun is the Lee 405-457-F sized to .459 over 14gr of Unique. There is no need for filler or wad as Unique is not position sensitive. You only need to be careful not to double charge.

Key

 

[jeffnles1]

I'm primarily a black powder shooter who also owns some guns that use that "passing fad" smokeless powder.

The OP question was really 2 parts:
1) Unique load for 45-70
2) paper patching.

I have no experience loading Unique in 45-70 and it seems that question has been answered appropriately and affirmative that Unique can be loaded in 45-70.

Regarding paper patching, I have some experience. A .452 bullet "MAY" work paper patched. A wrap of the paper would bring the overall bullet up to about .458-459 depending on the thickness of paper used.

HOWEVER - The OP also mentioned hard cast bullets. I've never known anyone who had any success shooting hard cast paper patched bullets. For paper patching to work, the bullet needs to 'bump up' when shooting and soft lead seems to work a lot better for the guys who shoot it a lot.

Fact remains, most of the guys shooting long range target work with black powder cartridge and long-range bullet muzzle loaders gave up on paper patching and went back to grease groove bullets for their long range (500 yd - 1000 yd) work.

Hope this helps
Jeff

 

[volshooter]

Thanks Jeff. I just wanted to use the supplies I have. The hard cast will work below 1500fps as tested in other loads without leading. I would like to use some of the unique. None of my shooting will be beyond 100 yards. Just thought it would be fun to blast some on hand lead at less than max loads in the Encore. Even the lead below 1500 would do for local game.
Put another 100 cases in the corn cob machine yesterday. Going to try them with the hard cast at low velocities. Done loaded a batch of JSP at max suggested levels for bear/hog up close. They group good and are mild to me and I will either keep the open sights or use a red dot for heavy cover, mostly what we have around East TN. Heard this week some areas are offering bounty on hogs. It is open season on hogs year round no limit. Even being a light weight single shot, the TC Encore would make a fine brush rifle and I also think the slower hard cast would fit the bill.

 

[sliclee]

Unique is a GREAT pistol powder. Many a man went his whole life just using that in rifle and pistol.
sassnet.net is cowboy action shooting much info about 45/70 major cowboy caliber, Good luck,Lee