430 Ruger?

[bowfishn]

I was on another site talking about the 454 SRH and the materials used in the manufacture and was dreaming about the ultimate .429 round, a 44 mag handgun made out of the same materials the 454 SRH is mad from. It would be able to handle about 20% more pressure than the 454 and with the better sectional density would be an awsome 200 yard revolver. It would be able to handle 300 to 340 grain bullets at high velocities and sighted in for 125 would probably be point blank aim to 200. They already have done the research on the materials they need and with tooling changes they could make it.
Just increase the case length .100" so it won't chamber in S$W revolvers or standard Redhawk and Super Redhawks. Seat the bullets to a depth so the won't be to long for the chamber. Lovers of the 44 mag would eat these up. You could shoot standard 44 mag for reduced loads and 430 Ruger for maximum power.

 

[Rigby]

Not sure how much more you would want out of a 44 and I dont think much of 200yd handguning at least for anything living.
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/44hammerheadplusp.html

 

[pisgah]

It's been done -- no one ate it up

http://www.sixguns.com/range/supermags.htm

 

[CraigC]

Do we really need a 200yd sixgun cartridge? I've been shooting sixguns since I was 12yrs old and have no business shooting at anything alive past 100yds.

 

[Aggie01]

I'm going to skip all the easy arguments and offer some hopefully constructive, hypothetical questions.

20% more pressure than a .454? Thats 78K PSI. (SAAMI max for the 454 is 65K)
What powder is going to do this level of performance in this case size?
When it gets there, how are you going to keep your primers from flowing into your firing pin hole, or piercing and venting gas?

 

[lovesrugers]

I think Aggie has already brought up some good points. Let me bring up one more.

There is a reason you see all the hottest rounds from handgun to rifle limited to 65,000 psi. This reason is above that the brass actually starts to fail. This failure is seen in enlarged primer pockets, bright marks on the brass and actual flowing of the brass when pressures get to high. All this happens at pressures roughly above 70k psi.

With an operating pressure of 78k psi your new rounds brass would be lucky to survive one shot.

Jerry

 

[bowfishn]

The point of the strength in the revolver is that it would be able to with stand 20% more pressure meaning, within the cases capacity we would end the debate over hot loading a 44, as it would be safer than a 454 shooting at the pressures it does. They are already getting 1478 fps with commercial 340 grain cast bullets with GC with +P loads, ( Buffalo Bore Ammo, Garrett is a little slower with a 330 grain they are both somewhere around 43,500 psi) so 1650 would not be out of the question, and 310 grain Cast GC bullets at close to 1800 fps. With a 125 yard sight in it would be flat to 150 yard (bullet path 2 inches high to 2.7 inch drop at 150) it would require a 4 inch hold over at 200 yards as it drops 12 inches.
Yes I know about the 445 super mag, I remember when it was introduced, the revolver was in no way up to the strength of what a SRH would be with the alloys used in the SRH 454. Also the cartridge case was much longer about .300" over the 44 mag case requiring a completely different cylinder length. It was not made to operate at 454 pressures.
As far as pressures go the cases and primers hold up just fine in the 454 pressure levels, and the proof testing is done at pressures higher than 70,000 on the 454. Ruger tested the new alloy with 300 rounds of proof ammo developing pressures of 90,000 psi (granted that was using a different case each time, but I don't think it blew out primer pockets) that would mean the 44 in the same revolver would be good for testing at 108,000 PSI One strong handgun, cost to Mfg not much different than a 454.
As far as 200 yard shots on game, some people should not attempt to take game at 50 yards not to mention 100 yards, but that does not stop them from trying it. Not everyone is the same and to put limits on distance based on your own or someone else's ability is unfounded imho.
A rifle in the right hands is capable of taking certain game at 500+ yards and an accurate handgun that has proper retained energy is plenty capable of 200 yard one shot kills. If you don't feel good about it you shouldn't do it.
It would not be a revolver for everyone, but it would let the 44 reach it's potential safely, like the 454 did for the 45.

 

[Aggie01]

Alright, now I'll really weigh in.

The point of the strength in the revolver is that it would be able to with stand 20% more pressure meaning, within the cases capacity we would end the debate over hot loading a 44, as it would be safer than a 454 shooting at the pressures it does.

Define "safer".

1650 would not be out of the question, and 310 grain Cast GC bullets at close to 1800 fps.

Okay in my original post, I specifically deleted what "MAGICAL" powder is going to do this level of performance. Seriously, do you have access to some awesome stuff? 'Cause I want some.

As far as pressures go the cases and primers hold up just fine in the 454 pressure levels, and the proof testing is done at pressures higher than 70,000 on the 454. Ruger tested the new alloy with 300 rounds of proof ammo developing pressures of 90,000 psi (granted that was using a different case each time, but I don't think it blew out primer pockets) that would mean the 44 in the same revolver would be good for testing at 108,000 PSI

108 K PSI? Roy Weatherby pushed the envelope long before I was born, and his best efforts had to deep throat the chambers to keep pressures under the 70K threshold. It wrecks the brass. The 353 FA wrecks primer pockets in one firing at about the 70K level. You are missing a few pages in your magic spellbook.
There is a Linebaugh load out there that cracks a FA Model 83 454 cylinder in three firings in the same chamber. This is considered the strongest revolver made at this time, including customs.

One strong handgun, cost to Mfg not much different than a 454.

Yep, nothing like convincing a reputable firearms manufacturer to make a firearm less effective on game than their failed .480 (commercially). Or spending a couple grand on whatever half-brained gunsmith you find to create a custom cylinder for you. If it doens't cost a couple grand, then it is a quarter brained gunsmith. I couldn't find ONE Gunsmith in the US to build a me a .480 Cooper.

It would not be a revolver for everyone, but it would let the 44 reach it's potential safely, like the 454 did for the 45.

the .44 magnum reached it's limits in the late 50's and early 60's. It surpassed the Grand Old Man's expectations. All we have done since then is slow it down with bigger slugs and work more with our new powders AT THE SAME PRESSURES.

RANT OFF.

 

[Ruger Packer]

I was on another site talking about the 454 SRH and the materials used in the manufacture and was dreaming about the ultimate .429 round, a 44 mag handgun made out of the same materials the 454 SRH is mad from. It would be able to handle about 20% more pressure than the 454 and with the better sectional density would be an awsome 200 yard revolver. It would be able to handle 300 to 340 grain bullets at high velocities and sighted in for 125 would probably be point blank aim to 200. They already have done the research on the materials they need and with tooling changes they could make it.
Just increase the case length .100" so it won't chamber in S$W revolvers or standard Redhawk and Super Redhawks. Seat the bullets to a depth so the won't be to long for the chamber. Lovers of the 44 mag would eat these up. You could shoot standard 44 mag for reduced loads and 430 Ruger for maximum power.

<~ circles ear with one finger while pointing at bowfishn with the other ~> :roll:

 

[Lee Martin]

I did something similar with the 1.40" 41 Mag (414 SuperMags trimmed 0.21"). Opted for a 5-shot cylinder on a Bisley and I've run pressure pretty high. What you get for all that is an extra 100 - 150 fps tops over the Mag (depends on the bullet weight). By the time you go thru all the effort for a "430 Magnum" you might as well stick with the 454.

 

[Lee Martin]

One other thing....I assume you'd make these off of 445 SuperMag cases? If so, you're going to eat primer pockets fast at 60,000 PSI. Remember, the Casull uses small rifle primers.

 

[Bucks Owin]

I expect there's a reason S&W went with .452" not .430" when going for a 2,300 fps, 200 yd handgun round....Voila! The .45XXLC!
JMO :wink:

 

[Charon]

The old .444 Marlin was essentially a ".44 Magnum Magnum." Used the same bullets, and a longer case. Might be easier to work with that and a revolver such as the Taurus Judge with the long cylinder and frame. Personally, if I had an urge to brew up something like that I would start with a Contender and just have the chamber rebored to whatever I wanted, then see if I could get the desired results. Only after getting the cartridge sorted out would I attempt to have a revolver manufactured or customized.

 

[Bucks Owin]

The old .444 Marlin was essentially a ".44 Magnum Magnum." Used the same bullets, and a longer case. Might be easier to work with that and a revolver such as the Taurus Judge with the long cylinder and frame. Personally, if I had an urge to brew up something like that I would start with a Contender and just have the chamber rebored to whatever I wanted, then see if I could get the desired results. Only after getting the cartridge sorted out would I attempt to have a revolver manufactured or customized.

Get a BFR chambered in .444 for an "ultimate .44"...:shock:
(Make it at least a "Buntline" though I'm thinking :wink: )

 

[the fatman]

I remember the good old days when all the gun writers wrote stories about hunting all kinds of critters with their 357s now the plain old 44 mag just won't cut it anymore.

 

[bowfishn]

The point of the strength in the revolver is that it would be able to with stand 20% more pressure meaning, within the cases capacity we would end the debate over hot loading a 44, as it would be safer than a 454 shooting at the pressures it does.

"Define "safer"."
What part of 20% stronger don't you get?

1650 would not be out of the question, and 310 grain Cast GC bullets at close to 1800 fps.

"Okay in my original post, I specifically deleted what "MAGICAL" powder is going to do this level of performance. Seriously, do you have access to some awesome stuff? 'Cause I want some."
If I gave you my magic powder than what would seperate me from you?

As far as pressures go the cases and primers hold up just fine in the 454 pressure levels, and the proof testing is done at pressures higher than 70,000 on the 454. Ruger tested the new alloy with 300 rounds of proof ammo developing pressures of 90,000 psi (granted that was using a different case each time, but I don't think it blew out primer pockets) that would mean the 44 in the same revolver would be good for testing at 108,000 PSI

"108 K PSI? Roy Weatherby pushed the envelope long before I was born, and his best efforts had to deep throat the chambers to keep pressures under the 70K threshold. It wrecks the brass. The 353 FA wrecks primer pockets in one firing at about the 70K level. You are missing a few pages in your magic spellbook.
There is a Linebaugh load out there that cracks a FA Model 83 454 cylinder in three firings in the same chamber. This is considered the strongest revolver made at this time, including customs."
Ruger did there tests exactly as they stated with 90,000 PSI 300 round of it. Unless your Linebaugh load ot there that was more than this I would say the FA model 83 is not the strongest one out there

It would not be a revolver for everyone, but it would let the 44 reach it's potential safely, like the 454 did for the 45.

"the .44 magnum reached it's limits in the late 50's and early 60's. It surpassed the Grand Old Man's expectations. All we have done since then is slow it down with bigger slugs and work more with our new powders AT THE SAME PRESSURES."
Sorry but the limits of the 44 will not be met until we can run it to the pressures of the 454 just as was done with the 45. I had a 454 SRH nice gun I would rather use the 44. Many shooters of the 44 mag already know what I am talking about.
Some people have no vision, they only believe what they can see or touch. There would be no 44 mag., no 454 Casull, no 480 Ruger , no 500 S&W if everyone felt the same way. If Ruger gave up and did not find the Custom 465 Stainless and Carpenter"s new Project 7000® 15Cr-5Ni stainless for the barrel there would be no 454 SRH 6 shooter. They did not throw thier hands in the air and run around in circles shouting "Oh my god we will never be able to do this" Instead they did it.

RANT OFF.[/quote]
I highly doubt that.

<~ circles ear with one finger while pointing at bowfishn with the other ~>
Thats not the first time that has happened, and I'm sure not the last :lol:

Lee the extra 100 to 150 fps over the +P loads is what I'm looking for, but in a handgun that will even handle more. You are most likely right on the primers needing to go to small Rifle primers.

The Idea of testing with a Contender with a special barrel not a bad Idea, it would tell part of the story at a much cheaper cost. The BFR with 444 would certainly have case volume.

Wow some people sure get wound up you would think I had said the world is round and we orbit the Sun. Good thing we know that's not true.

 

[Axehandle]

Sounds like you guys need to go to Gary Reeder's web site.. He necks a 454 down to 44 and calls it a 429 GNR... Works in a run of the mill NM BH size frame.

 

[Tommy Kelly]

wOW and to think I have a 500S&W a 475 linebaugh a 454 casul and a 480 ruger plus 5 44 mags 1 41 mag several 357 mags and you know what my 22lr kills turtles just as dead as any of them. For deer I would start with the 41 mag and go up to whatever I wanted to carry that day. Who needs a super banger for anything we hunt. Not me I like the bigger guns but figure the manufacturers know more about the safe limits of their product than I do. You go to pushing the limits with a controlled explosion and something is going to give way. I don't care for holding dynomite in my hand and wating for it to blow. Stick with what we have and the guidelines to go with it and live a long and prosperous life and enjoy it .

 

[bowfishn]

That is what the 454 is a controled piece of dynomite they had to build a revolver to handle. Point is without the gun the cartridge would not be usable. There was a time when all the larger calibers mentioned were not made, maybe they should have stuck with 45 lc, 38 spec, 44 spec because that's what they had the guide lines for. There will always be change can't stop it. By the way I shot a 200 lb Blackie with a 22lr one shot kill, up close and personal, never did any turtling.

 

[Hammerdown77]

I believe the 460 S&W is the gun you're looking for. Flat flat flat way on out there.

 

[bowfishn]

You are right about that, I checked into that cartridge couple years back. It's very flat, my only problem with getting one was I am stuck on Ruger, not that S&W is not a great piece, and I have always had a thing for the 44 mag.

 

[CraigC]

It's not that I don't think there's something useable there, it's just that 20% more pressure than the .454's 65,000psi is more than a little ambitious. Let us also not forget that most .454 factory loads only run 50-55,000psi. Partly because the .454 is so touchy at its full potential. Partly because the SRH has sticky extraction at those levels. Extreme pressure is just not the way to get there.

 

[bowfishn]

NO,no I am not saying to load it to 20% more the 20% is just a freebie in the Handguns strength because of the extra steel between and around the cylinders. I am only saying if the handgun were made from the same materials as the SRH 454 we could safely load the loads that many are already putting through thier 44 SRH plus a bit more.
I had the 454 and when you load it up to MAX you have a hard time getting a crimp strong enough to keep the cylinder from locking up from bullet creep. Most people do not even begin to load to max with the 454.

 

[mohavesam]

The 460 S&W Magnum does most of what is being discussed. I think it is at it's best in a closed-breech HB Encore.

More pressure? Do you know or have you ever seen anyone with early onset arthritis in their elbows, wrists, and hand joints?

20% higher pressure than a 454C in a handgun screams "Cool forehead scar, dude! What's like, 35 or 40 stitches???"

Of course there are some derringers out there in 45-70 Gov't and 30-06. I'm guessing they don't get shot much either.

 

[Ruger Packer]

I remember the good old days when all the gun writers wrote stories about hunting all kinds of critters with their 357s now the plain old 44 mag just won't cut it anymore.

Ain't that the truth!! Do you think those old gun writers were just better shots that many today??? 8)

 

[Hammerdown77]

You are right about that, I checked into that cartridge couple years back. It's very flat, my only problem with getting one was I am stuck on Ruger, not that S&W is not a great piece, and I have always had a thing for the 44 mag.

I think if you've got the money, one of the custom single action guys like Reeder, Bowen, Linebaugh, Gallagher or such could chamber a Ruger in 460 for ya!

 

[Lee Martin]

I've done a lot of custom revolver work over the years to include wildcats like the 450 Bonecrusher, 458 Devastator, 401 Bobcat, 375 Atomic, etc. All that being said, there's nothing I can't do with a heavily loaded 45 Colt flinging 300 - 360 grain bullets (and that includes shooting out to 200 yards). All too often it's easy to get caught-up in ballistic tables, pressure curves, TKO stats, etc (and trust me, I'm as guilty as anyone).

Just a thought.....

 

[Jbrown75]

Just buy a .44 Rhino and be done. Less hassle with figuring out how to blow your face or hands to shreds and there are some nice TC and Dan Wesson guns out there already.

 

[no5shooter]

OK Bowfishn, you have plenty of folks telling you why it won't work or why it's just a lousy idea or how it's already been done so I'll toss in my $.02 worth just to say I like your idea. A .430 Ruger Supermag, ballistics somewhere between a .44 Mag and a .444 Marlin, slightly longer case than a .44 Mag, better sectional density than a .45 Anything, and something to keep us who like them .429's happy for a while. What's not to like?

 

[bowfishn]

no5shooter, I guess you have to love the .429 to understand what the dream is " If you build it they will come"
Not trying to out do the 454 Casull, would go with a S&W 460 or 500 or other cannon. Just want to load up the 44 to it's potential, higher standards in a New Stronger Firearm, and like your handle say's in a 6 shooter.