.357Flattop box confusion

[tommygun]

I have 2 BKH34 Flattops in the 30xxx range. Shipped in 1960 and 1961. I bought them a while back and just realized that one is in a BKH3 non model box and one is in a BKH34 box. Looks like they started shipping with model designation in 1959. Your thoughts?

 

[Ale-8(1)]

The boxes began to have model numbers when the 6-1/2" and 10" guns were introduced in about mid-1959. That's in the vicinity of the 22XXX serial numbers.

Both of your guns need boxes with BKH34 on them.

 

[radicalrod]

Well ya know what they say about RUGER COLLECTING.....NEVER SAY NEVER....I has a rather late gun once and it was in a NON CAT box....

I am sure if the boys in the warehouse found an old box of NON CATALOG boxes they didn't pitch them they just used them up.....they were selling GUNS not collectibles :!: :!: :!: RR....

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Excellent point. It all depends on how picky you are.

It would have been completely possible for an earlier box to be used to ship a later gun. Unless the box were numbered to the gun, however, it would be tough to "prove" this had happened . . . and numbers on boxes are subject to being messed with.

Were it my gun, I'd hope to have a box that's accepted as being "proper" (even if it was numbered to a different gun) than have a box that wasn't from the same time period as the gun in question. If documentable "collector correctness" isn't all that imporant to you, it really doesn't matter.

JMHO

 

[rugerguy]

bottom line is the outer shipping sleeve, as well as the box itself, and all the numbers "match" would be about as close to being "right" (correct) as one can be and yes obviouslly they can and will over lap..."never say never, and never say always" 8)

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Additional point . . . among the collectors, your early "non-model-numbered" box is worth considerably more than the later version . . . CONSIDERABLY MORE!

 

[radicalrod]

Well the one I had WAS numbered to the gun and appear not to be a rewrite as is commonly done....RR.

 

[JCW64]

It could really be either box around that timeframe. Here are 2 that I own that I bought at 2 different auctions that have the uncataloged box. I know someone could have written the SN outside the factory but I believe these to be original. I had a boxed 44 Flattop in the 23,000 range which was about the same time these guns shipped in Nov. 1960 that also had the SN marked in white grease. One is a 6 groove barrel the other an 8 groove barrel, another oddity from that timeframe as most were already 8 groove barrels.

 

[flatgate]

Nice! That "warms a guy's heart"!

A few years ago I was at a gun show in Salt Lake with my ol' buddy Steve Ruger. I was just enough "ahead" of him that I scored two BKH-3 boxes, one w/cat. #, one w/o! while he was snarfing up a nice Hawkeye, IIRC

 

[tommygun]

Oh do I know the price of BKH3 boxes. I am fortunate to have acquired boxes for my entire collection. So it is important for me to have not only all the boxes, but that they all be correct. I will go with one should have been in a BKH34 box when I bought it and I got a bonus when it was shipped in a BKH3 box. Darn, I guess that means I will have to find something to live in it. Anybody got a 3xx, 4xx, 5xx or 6xx BKH3 that should live in my spare box? Also it will need a non-dated SS manual and 357 insert. That isn't too much to ask is it?

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Don't forget that any 4-5/8" gun up thru about 22XXX could be "proper" in the "unmarked" box, although the later ones should likely be "lettered" to be sure. Might make your search a little easier, but I can certainly appreciate the search for those three-digit beauties.

You're getting quite a nice assortment , Tommy!

 

[princeout]

Calvin,
Nice wood on those two twins!
Tim

 

[HAWKEYE#28]

Be careful of that white china marker.Side of box, later, fine. End of box, questionable, I suggest. My experiences say end of box marker was RED.........Others, chime in......Remember, "Original" is only one owner away, and the people who could answer these questions from the "plant" are mostly gone to the big gun show "up there"

 

[Ale-8(1)]

As mentioned, "never" and "always" are questionable terms around here.

I have on occasion, long ago, seen new guns in boxes with white markings on the end label . . . as well as red and just plain old black pencil.

Don't recall when the large white markings on the side of the boxes started. Probably as those who did the marking began to get older.

I have observed that the white stuff is rather easily removed, and also subject to being just worn away by handling over the years.

 

[radicalrod]

Well maybe they needed to use the side of the box once the prefix came into play.... not a bunch of room on the end....

I think my # 96 box does have reddish orange numbers but I can't seem to find a pic of it.....

That was a miracle finding the box to gun you already own :lol: :lol: :lol: RR.

 

[SteveRuger]

Well maybe they needed to use the side of the box once the prefix came into play.... not a bunch of room on the end....

I think my # 96 box does have reddish orange numbers but I can't seem to find a pic of it.....

That was a miracle finding the box to gun you already own :lol: :lol: :lol: RR.

:shock: 8) And the rest of us sitting on our hands! I believe! :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[radicalrod]

Well you could have bid.....BUT.....an elephant never forgets :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well I did ask for some slack as I certainly would do the same for anyone that had the gun numbered to the box for sale 8) 8) 8)

Nothing short of nuclear war would have stopped me from owning that box :!: :!: :!:

I would have just paid what it was going to take to get the job done :idea: :idea: :idea:

And I do thank my fellow RUGER FRIENDS for NOT making me pay the "long dollar"....RR.

 

[rugerguy]

well if you are talking about the #96 flatop 357, the original owner ,Joe, who I got that gun "new" many years ago, threw out his box............. he worked for the company that supplied Mr Ruger their machine cutting oils back in the mid 50's....... 8)

 

[radicalrod]

Dan, thanks for the story....though why does a guy throw away a box but then keeps the gun as NIB condition...

Well he musta threw it in a pile at the garage sale then it made it's way to EBAY and me :lol: :lol: :lol:

I promise to take a pic so everyone can make up their own mind .....YES Virginia there is a SANTA CLAUS RR.

PS....maybe "JOE" forgot what he did with said box and just told you he threw it away....heck it is just a box...big deal....then he or someone finds it and says lets sell this thing on EBAY....it came from here in OHIO if I remember correctly....and so did the gun....

 

[chet15]

I would be about pretty sure that the non-catalog number .357 box can be found clear into the 40xxx range of .357 flattops. Ruger had an ample supply there when they went to the other barrel lengths.
But...BKH-34 boxes were definitely used during the flattop era.

Remember that for the .44 flattop 6-1/2", they are all non catalog number boxes right through to the end, so that's three full years of using what they had until the .44 FT was discontinued.
There are a couple BKH-46 printed boxes known, but I've always had a hunch there was a very small batch of those printed in 1959, so Ruger held off on printing more until they were needed....and they never were.
Chet15

 

[rugerguy]

Ha, why does anybody do what they do??? figure that one out ,you'll really be the genius.........
yep, just a story from the guy who was given the gun way back when he called on Ruger selling machine oil, he shot it, did NOT collect them, ONLY Ruger he ever owned, and I got it back in late 1989-1990 for $450 so why would he make up any story?? John D bought the gun from laura, sent it back and the same day Rich M bought it at the I-X Center, could not figure out what was wrong with John D (NY John D) ( he ended up selling about everything anyway a few years later) that gun won a Best of Show at the NRA convention the following year or next,after Laura sold it to Rich, was in the RCA display, yeah, we know a LOT about that gun......................got more of the story in a follow up with Jack B as he had the number before ,#95...............only part weird was Joe claimed the gun was "handed to him" at the factory,when he was there soon after the flatops were released, (on service call, work..) the "other" side said it had to go through a dealer to be shipped back??? ( paper trail??) :roll: we'll NEVER know the rest of that story.........................speculation now, or as we like to say "Ruger lore..." every gun has a story, if only they could talk........... :wink:

BUT anyway, tommygun, if you want the 'other'; box ,next time I go past your exit ,let me know and I will "swap" you the one YOU want........ :roll: 8) :wink:

we don't keep 'em, you guys end up with all this stuff anyway

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Fascinating. I can see how the "unmarked" boxes could be utilized for 4-5/8" guns beyond the time when the longer guns were introduced. No reason not to use them up as the lack of model numbering and barrel length weren't "wrong" just incomplete. I'm sure WBR didn't care about that.

That said, when were the BKH34-marked boxes introduced? Got a serial number range reference? One might think that the BKH34-marked boxes weren'i even ordered until the unmarked supply was running short, WBR being as frugal as he was.

Or would it be safe to assume the marked and unmarked versions overlapped for a time? Yes, I know, assuming is dangerous.

 

[HAWKEYE#28]

I assume that the BKH 34 label was at least ordered when the other two barrel lengths came into play.So, when the 6 1/2"and 10" guns were being advertised as forthcoming, The three labels and box lengths were part of the bulk order, in order to keep WBR happy with the best prices for packaging........

 

[ndruger]

Pocket edition #2 page 140 has early boxes to #42093. :shock: 8)

 

[Ale-8(1)]

That would be a stretch, but possible. The last flattop built was 42689. Guess it would have been possible that there were still some original boxes in the pipeline at that point, and they would still have been essentially "correct" for the short guns even though rather incomplete in view of the length-marked boxes for the longer guns.

I guess when you look at it that way, the original boxes could have been used clear up until the New Models came out. They're not marked "Flattop", but they're not marked "New Model" either.

 

[flattop44]

I have had BKH3 non-catalog boxes for guns up in the #33xxx range that I felt were correct in every way. As we all know, they continued to use left over OM boxes for early New Models and/or other models with a white sticker with black print over the catalog information end them. Did not waste any boxes......except maybe a bunch of "Whiteboxes" but that is another story.
FT44

 

[chet15]

That would be a stretch, but possible. The last flattop built was 42689. Guess it would have been possible that there were still some original boxes in the pipeline at that point, and they would still have been essentially "correct" for the short guns even though rather incomplete in view of the length-marked boxes for the longer guns.

I guess when you look at it that way, the original boxes could have been used clear up until the New Models came out. They're not marked "Flattop", but they're not marked "New Model" either.

Stretch?? Maybe...but you'll need to verify with Gary West as he is the one who provided a lot of that late # non-cat box info (Gary being an individual who has bought a lot of NIB or nice in box .357's through the years).
Then you get into the question...why would somebody put a non-cat # box with a late .357 anyway, considering the value between it and a BKH34 marked box.
Then of course, who's to say an case of the older boxes gets found finally in a corner of their building to finally get used 3 years later. Sure, you bet it can happen.

As mentioned above, non cat# 6-1/2" .44 FT boxes were used right up through the end of FT production...some 3 years after the other barrel lengths came out. What would be hard to believe is Ruger having close to 10,000 boxes on hand in 1959 to ship the 6-1/2" .44. You'd almost have to think the printing presses were still making non-cat # boxes even after 1959 (The two-piece 6-7/8" Mark I pistol box never did get a T678 catalog number on the end).
Chet15

 

[Ale-8(1)]

" . . . why would somebody put a non-cat # box with a late .357 anyway, considering the value between it and a BKH34 marked box?"

Simple answer is that most folks aren't aware of all the finer points of Rugerdom. "Hey, it's a flippin' box! Who cares?"

We've seen New Models in Old Model boxes and vice-versa right here in the classifieds.

 

[chet15]

The next thing is, the inner box really didn't matter to the folks at Ruger when packaging. It was the info on the brown shipper that mattered as that matched the catalog designation. There probably isn't any transition period with shipping sleeve stamps as the original stamp "MAGNUM" was changed to "BKH3" when the .44 flattop came out, then to "BKH-34" when the other barrel lengths were introduced.
Chet15