.380 For self defense?

[Joe Chartreuse]

I have 2 LCP IIs. One a .22 LR and the other a .380. I have read many posts regarding .22 LRs for self-defense ( disagree with most). However, I would like to read your thoughts on the .380 for self defense- and maybe a comparison for same to the .22 LR?

 

[Fox Mike]

Personal opinion. Anything is better than nothing or a big stick. I have a LCP II w/laser. At about 15 feet where the laser is pointed is where the bullet is going. Is the 380 the best defense round. No. A .44 mag is a much better round but generally not practical to carry for someone small and old like me. My 380 when loaded with the right ammunition is, in my opinion, a fine defensive weapon IF NEEDED.

 

[hittman]

Excellent quality, more dependable guns along with more practice time always trump caliber for me.

 

[JPGLSG1234]

What Fox Mike said, I carry my LCP II 380 everywhere.

 

[GunnyGene]

I have 2 LCP IIs. One a .22 LR and the other a .380. I have read many posts regarding .22 LRs for self-defense ( disagree with most). However, I would like to read your thoughts on the .380 for self defense- and maybe a comparison for same to the .22 LR?

Ask the people who have been shot, what they would have preferred to be shot with.

 

[wwb]

As noted, better than a stick.... but I much prefer a .357.

 

[blume357]

If you are comparing just those two then the answer is obvious... the .380. I don't care how many people have been killed with a 22...

bigger is better....

 

[Dave P.]

I'm fine with a .380 LCP. Carry one about half the time, other carry gun is a Glock 36 in .45acp. Sure I "feel" better prepared carrying the Glock but
often times physical comfort and surroundings call for the LCP. Rationally thinking about it I doubt many humans would not "stop" if properly
shot two to four times with quality modern .380 ammo.
Granted there is always the possibility that a 300 pound NFL offensive lineman armed with two machetes goes crazy in the grocery store and
I'll regret not carrying the 870 loaded with three inch buckshot and slugs, I'll risk it.
Can't see any point in the .22LCP as it's basically the same size as the .380. Maybe for range practice as in drawing from your chosen carry method
and firing, be cheaper than .380. My other issue is the lack of reliability of .22 ammo, I seldom ever get through a box or two without a few misfires
and this is across any brand or quality I've ever fired. You've got an ideal combo, range practice lots with the .22 for speed and handling probably
getting some misfire practice as a side benefit and shoot the .380 enough to be comfortable with it.

 

[Kevin]

You also have to consider when shooting it’s going to attract a lot of attention. Depends upon where you are of course. But I would say most people if they get shot and then are able to flee would probably do so.

Remember, most bad guys are chickens, and even a .22 would attract attention and possibly allow the bad guy to run away. Even if you miss, the noise alone will scare off most people.

 

[gramps]

Fox Mike nailed it. I used to have an Iver Johnson TP 22, that was small. It disappeared in a belly band. On more than one occasion, it was carried where deep concealment was necessary. It was reliable and at short range, I felt well armed. I never had to use it. Since then, I have been better educated, weapons have come a long way. My next was a KelTec P-32, then an LCP .380 gen 1, now an LCP MAX. These are generally BUG, but I am comfortable using the MAX as a primary.
gramps

 

[ronto]

I carry either a .357 revolver or 22LR revolver depending on where I'm going and what I'm wearing.

 

[Jeepnik]

For decades a AMT Backup was my bicycle gun. During a good part of that time I regularly rode my bike to work. No big deal you say. First my ho s plus regular overtime had me riding at all hours. Second the refinery was in the Wilmington area of L A (think serious gang territory).

I felt perfectly comfortable with a .380. In those almost twenty years I never had a single issue. It seems gangbangers usually don’t bother folks they see on a regular basis. You sort of become part of the scenery.

Today things are obviously much different. “Bad” areas now include the entire country. I’ve had more incidents in the last five years than the previous 6+ decades. I usually carry a .45 of some stripe these days. But I still carry. A .380 at times. Today though it’s a Glock 42.

 

[KIR]

There has been a lot of negative opinions of .380 acp in the past, but I find there are fewer of them as the advancement in the technology of ammo has improved. Ex: Hornady's Critical Defense is just an example and there are better ones out there. So, if one does not or cannot carry anything larger than an LCP (I have an original) than it is a good EDC, especially sitting at a card table. Great for close in shooting. EZ to keep hidden. Thereafter one can move on up to whatever they feel comfortable with.

 

[BearBiologist]

When I was 22 or so, I was shot in a hunting accident. I took a .22 LR in my lower leg and foot. The ER told me that the .22 often did more damage than a larger (.38 or even a .357) due to the lower velocity and softer lead. It often meandered around. My defense/house gun was a Ruger Single Six loaded with 22 magnums until I got out of the Army (I used by separation pay to buy a '67 Impala and a S & W Model 58 in 41 mag.).

Granted, neither the 22 nor the 380 will stop an enraged/drugged assailant (a 44 magnum may not, either!) but as stated before, better than a sharp stick. Again, BULLET PLACEMENT is cardinal!

 

[dweis]

A well thrown rock as well as a pointed stick can can impair and even kill. I am not suggesting that we should carry rocks or sticks for self-defense. I am asserting that any caliber ammunition can be lethal, and therefore can incapacitate a person.

Lethality of any caliber is limited by the skill set of the shooter not just by ballistics. That skill set includes speed, accuracy, and understanding human physiology.

Speed — Their is little time to react if attacked by a near adversary. You have to be able to deter or impair the attack very quickly, maybe in a second or two. This is why self- defense preparation should begin with learning basic unarmed combat skills. For example, if an adversary is coming at you from two feet away with a knife you have to be able a to react in a second or two. If you go for your EDC, you are likely to be stabbed because you are extremely unlikely to draw and get off a shot in a second or even two. You need to parry the attack to gain time to effectively use your gun. Even when the adversary is far enough away that you do not need to parry speed is critical. If an adversary is twenty feet away and pulls a gun, he has an advantage. His gun is usable and yours is holstered. If you cannot draw your gun and have it on target in a couple seconds, you chances of going unscathed decrease. The longer it takes the less chance you have. But if you are fast on the draw you are likely to slow down the adversary by the psychological impact of an unexpected gun pointing at him. If you shoot and hit him, even if a superficial wound, it will slow him down further.

Accuracy — Famed Marine General Chesty Puller remarked to his men: "You can't hurt 'em if you don't hit 'em. Getting shots off quickly and missing is a good way to end up injured or dead. A hail of bullets can distract the adversary without hitting him, but it won't win a gunfight. Only hitting the target is going to lead to victory, and the more accurate your fire the more likely that you will win. That is regardless of caliber. Simple fact is that a 22LR in the face is going to impair or incapacitate your adversary. A 9mm bullet in the arm might not do that.

Human physiology — The lower the caliber the more important a knowledge of human physiology becomes. Knowing the location of critical organs and nerve centers is important to knowing where to aim. Center mass is a very large area of the body. There are some place better to aim for than others. For example, I would aim for the bottom area of the sternum. A hard fist punch to the sternum can incapacitate and even kill a person. If my bullet hits high of the sternum it hits the neck. If it hits center, it can deflate the lungs. If t hits low, it can impair heart function. If the bullet hits right of the adversary's sternum it hits a lung. If it hits farther right, there are major veins. If it hits left, the heart and aorta are exposed. If you shoot high and hit the neck the bullet can reach the spinal column. If you hit below the sternum you hit the solar plexus nerve center of the torso and the liver. The area of the sternum is a rich incapacitation zone.

I consider clothing as an adjunct to physiology. A tee shirt will not slow down a lighter caliber. A tee shits, regular shirt, fleece vest, and winter coat can slow down a bullet, and in lighter calibers that can meaningfully impair the ballistic performance. So clothing can be a factor in selecting point of aim. Anything that will affect penetration must be taken into consideration regardless of caliber. If I saw an adversary was wearing body armor, I would aim my 9mm for the neck or face, but not the forehead.

To the OP's point, I believe that 22LR or 380 ACP can be adequate self-defense rounds provided that you absorb the importance of the above information. When the day comes that I cannot handle 9mm, I will bypass 380 and go to 22LR, because I know that I am and will be more accurate with 22 than 380.

Note: Oddly this thread related to the first post of my blog that will go public on October 10. I decided to publish this as a harbinger of more to come.

 

[BearBiologist]

After all, what is a rifle with a bayonet but a spear? A rock is a low-velocity, large diameter bullet. Again, bigger and faster is better but all are only as good as the man holding them.

 

[Joe Chartreuse]

If you are comparing just those two then the answer is obvious... the .380. I don't care how many people have been killed with a 22...

bigger is better....

Not that obvious. I know how many feel about .22LR . However, field experiences would put it ahead of the NATO round for use against those NOT wearing body armor. The .380 is also a smaller caliber. The comparison part was more a question of accuracy between the two as well as other comparisons. However, I am also getting replies regarding at what caliber do some accept as MORE than "better than a stick". .357s, .45s, .44s. etc. I get it. However, these are what I call "kill calibers". Of course they are great for self defense- but they are also sorta final. Smaller calibers can kill, but also offer other options. Please understand that this is simply my personal preference. Doesn't mean I don't own land wouldn't use larger if needed. Of course, it's also way more comfortable to carry a smaller gun than a cannon... ;-)
Anyway, still interested in comparisons between the two even if both are just "better than a stick".

 

[Dave P.]

Expanding a bit on what I already posted.
I believe the .22 has only two advantages if both being fired from the same gun. Cost per round and reduced recoil.
If someone is physically unable or unwilling to shoot the .380 enough to handle it and the choice comes down to the
.22 or .....no gun at all....... the .22 wins.
Range practice drawing and firing, dry practice is great but you really don't know what you hit with that lightning fast draw
followed by a trigger click. The .22 in that LCP platform would be a good training tool, cheap enough to practice 1000s of
times with, finishing each practice session with a couple out of the .380.
I really can't think of anything else the .22 has going for it in the LCP platform.

 

[Fox Mike]

I practice the four "5s" with my 380 LCP II. Five shots, five seconds, five yards. at a five inch circle. Don't laugh till you try it. Not nearly as simple as it sounds.

 

[noahmercy]

The .380 is the absolute minimum I consider suitable for self defense, and then only with a couple of the rounds on the market. The Hornady XTP is one of my favorites, as it penetrates deeply enough while still expanding some to do damage along its path. The Lehigh Defense XP also performs well, but it can shoot off of the POA in some guns due to its light weight. I much prefer the 9mm, .40 S&W, and 45 ACP for defense in semi-autos partly because their performance after impacting sheet metal, auto glass, or interior walls is far superior to the .380, and since we can rarely determine the exact circumstances of a life-or-death situation, I believe in carrying a cartridge that will work in less-than-optimal conditions.

 

[Pal Val]

I have never heard a dead man say he would have rather been shot with a different caliber. I carried a .380 pistol (Walther PPKs) for a long time before switching to a Ruger SP101. As I got older and fatter, I found it easier to conceal the revolver.

 

[Joe Chartreuse]

Expanding a bit on what I already posted.
I believe the .22 has only two advantages if both being fired from the same gun. Cost per round and reduced recoil.
If someone is physically unable or unwilling to shoot the .380 enough to handle it and the choice comes down to the
.22 or .....no gun at all....... the .22 wins.
Range practice drawing and firing, dry practice is great but you really don't know what you hit with that lightning fast draw
followed by a trigger click. The .22 in that LCP platform would be a good training tool, cheap enough to practice 1000s of
times with, finishing each practice session with a couple out of the .380.
I really can't think of anything else the .22 has going for it in the LCP platform.

In some case THREE advantages. Depending on the firearm, more rounds per mag.

 

[cowboycopus]

Sig P238 .380 in my pocket where it's legal.
If I lived in one of the "high crime/gang infestations" I might beef up.

 

[Sturgis270]

Sig P238 .380 in my pocket where it's legal.
If I lived in one of the "high crime/gang infestations" I might beef up.

Also have the Sig P238. Carries well and shoots well.

 

[KurtC]

The best handgun in the world is the one you have with you. The one at home is useless.

Most 380's are straight blowback and have more felt recoil than a locked breech 9mm.

Regardless of the handgun you choose, use it too take a defensive handgun course of fire. Most folks think they are Wyatt Earp because they can hit a piece of paper at 10ft. Nothing can be further from the truth.

The smaller the pistol, the more difficult it is to use under stress. Drawing from awkward positions, reloading, malfunctions, weak hand shooting, darkness, etc, are all more difficult with subcompact pistols.

 

[RC44Mag]

I have a Beretta 84F I bought about 25 years ago and love it but by todays standard it too large for concealed carry as smaller 9mm pistols are out there now with about twice the muzzle energy. It now spends it’s days in a safe.

 

[Snake Pleskin]

I use a Glock 42 most days, or a J frame(various) and of course my LCPII in .22lr. I once read where these were called "two handed" firearms. You hold the bad guy with one had and shoot them with the other?? LOL : ) No one wants to be shot, and unless you practice daily/weekly, are in great shape physically, and have professional training both mind and mechanics, thinking you are going to remember all these great bits of information etc, your 4 point Gunsite draw, the side step, the terminal T, the danger zone within 21 feet , etc., You will be lucky to get the piece out and get a shot off before the SHTF! If you have been in a close confrontation and been shot at, you will understand. Sensory deprivation, tunnel vision, loss of hearing, from muzzle flash & blast. Adrenalin pumping, heart racing, hands sweating, flight or fight response. LOL, I just did not realize how many professionally trained Jason Bourne types we have here, who have actually done this and survived. LOL, LOL! IMHO. The last thing I want to do is get in a "gunfight" with anyone. I practice daily my best technique. It's called "running away"!! I'm getting very good at it!

 

[Dave P.]

In some case THREE advantages. Depending on the firearm, more rounds per mag.

Correct! I'm not too stuck on higher round capacities but agree that more can't hurt.
As long as they all go bang instead of click.

 

[Dave P.]

I use a Glock 42 most days, or a J frame(various) and of course my LCPII in .22lr. I once read where these were called "two handed" firearms. You hold the bad guy with one had and shoot them with the other?? LOL : ) No one wants to be shot, and unless you practice daily/weekly, are in great shape physically, and have professional training both mind and mechanics, thinking you are going to remember all these great bits of information etc, your 4 point Gunsite draw, the side step, the terminal T, the danger zone within 21 feet , etc., You will be lucky to get the piece out and get a shot off before the SHTF! If you have been in a close confrontation and been shot at, you will understand. Sensory deprivation, tunnel vision, loss of hearing, from muzzle flash & blast. Adrenalin pumping, heart racing, hands sweating, flight or fight response. LOL, I just did not realize how many professionally trained Jason Bourne types we have here, who have actually done this and survived. LOL, LOL! IMHO. The last thing I want to do is get in a "gunfight" with anyone. I practice daily my best technique. It's called "running away"!! I'm getting very good at it!

This got me thinking about training and practice type stuff.
I think I posted about this at the time but last November was asked for money by a druggie/drunk going into an auto parts store and semi-politely
brushed him off. Coming out he more aggressively tried again and I responded equally with..... well you know. Apparently it pissed him off and he came
after me. It was a very short physical encounter , but honestly thinking back I never remembered I was actually carrying a gun. At no time did even a hint of thought or reaction to draw came into my mind. I've taken plenty of training but NONE of it involved any physical struggle and trying to get a gun
into action. Played ice hockey my whole life and been in countless tussles and that's what my brain and body reacted with. Wonder how long it
would have taken if he had a knife or weapon to catch up to the situation and decide it was time to shoot him......
It was obviously the right choice not to, but the point is I didn't make the decision but totally forgot I even had the option.

 

[Notaguru]

With a career in the Marines behind me (three Vietnam tours, two combat deployments "elsewhere"), and one attempted mugging (I was the planned muggee), I feel strongly that shot placement trumps caliber. At this age I need a bit more distance between me and an attacker, so since age 70 I've done a warmup and then two strings of SEVENS at least monthly, and am confident that my LCP MAX (slightly modified/polished and now ultra-reliable) is an ideal self defense handgun. For decades I carried a 637 in 38 Special +P, but now - in my declining and reclining years - I prefer 12+1. The Max can go into any pocket, so is unlikely to be left behind. For me, a high-capacity .380 is ideal and I watch the market looking for the emergence of anything superior to my Max...

Two more points.
1. For those who do a warning shot (as in my mugging incident), the "snap" of a .22 - even a WMR - is not an effective deterrent. Changing an attacker's plan requires the "bang" of a .380 - at least.
2. My first round (chambered) is a blank 9x19mm, crimped to fit. They're handloaded to avoid FTF and FTE problems and make one hell of a bang!

As always, train regularly and hope you never need it!