Topstrap drilled and tapped - OUCH as a collector piece. I like buying guns like that but they are project guns for conversions, not a collector gun but who knows. Maybe the guy is like me and buys because he likes the gun, not it's collector value.
Red Eagle found
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To me, an otherwise-nice Hawkeye with a D&T top strap would be interesting if the price were right.
Of course, I'm not an absolute purist, nor can I begin to afford a pristine Hawkeye.
Man's gotta know (and accept) his limitations.
Of course, I'm not an absolute purist, nor can I begin to afford a pristine Hawkeye.
Man's gotta know (and accept) his limitations.
But boy if a guy could find one at a good price and have Alan fix the holes and CCH it, it would make the stalwarts cringle but be a fun shooter.
. . . and likely cost as much as a pretty nice, unmolested one.
Actually if any of you guys find a nice Ruger that is D&T Alan doesn't charge that much to weld and have his local guy CCH. Less than $300 for it all and a violated Ruger gets some new coloring and holes fixed.
Have to admit that could be interesting for a gun that's been "compromised", and not too likely to ever be confused for a factory original. If nothing else, it wouldn't letter.
But as stated, it would surely be a great shooter and conversation starter.
But as stated, it would surely be a great shooter and conversation starter.
I have to agree with AZ Dan, the realm of "coins, cars, and firearms" are totally on a different plain, NO comparison in the least bit.......as he stated, the factory could NOPT get it right themselves, they redid over and over so many of their guns, , and some left the factory , some went to distributors only to be returned, and some made it into the hands of new owners and again, ONLY to be returned , redone........and ALL of these guns LOOK reblued, not even a nice job, put any in the hands of an 'expert" refinisher, and hear them tell you....yes, ONLY the Ruger collectors put a "premium" as well as "love" defective, 'seconds' in firearms.......a Colt ,Winchester or Parker, and on and on, would NOT give a" rats pituty" with one of them.
Besides the over laps in time and finishing problems has gone all over the spectrum with Ruger, and sorry Steve, the books CANNOT 'show or tell" you what its "supposed" to look like............high polish in Rugers is NOT "high polish LUSTRE, as in a S&W or such..........caveat emptor baby, I again say when anyone tells you , "its brand new, unfired, in the box....." you better know what you're getting into, and I do NOT care WHO is doing the selling, as AZ Dan says, look at 'RL Wilson'...................... :roll:
Besides the over laps in time and finishing problems has gone all over the spectrum with Ruger, and sorry Steve, the books CANNOT 'show or tell" you what its "supposed" to look like............high polish in Rugers is NOT "high polish LUSTRE, as in a S&W or such..........caveat emptor baby, I again say when anyone tells you , "its brand new, unfired, in the box....." you better know what you're getting into, and I do NOT care WHO is doing the selling, as AZ Dan says, look at 'RL Wilson'...................... :roll:
chet15
Hawkeye
rugerguy said:
I don't mind hearing from the other side of this.
But not being familiar with what the nice Colts, Winchesters and Parkers go for, are you saying there isn't a price difference between a truly original mint gun and one that has been, as you say "restored"?
Can anybody honestly say that some of those "restored" guns aren't being sold as Mint Original guns today? It only takes one or two generations to lose track of what's original and what's not.
Me, I prefer putting the solid $ in the original stuff, cause anything can be refinished. There can't be any more new "originals" any more.
Hope everybody can honestly see the difference there.
Chet15
I remain "really tired" of hearing from or about those who did not or won't seek information found in "the books". I have postured "from the pulpit" and will continue to do so.I have the soft cover "know your Ruger single actions" 1953-1963"" for $19.00 Shipped(!) out of print and there are not any more..........."Old INFO" ABOUT OLD GUNS...........This beats buying drilled and tapped guns done by some SHADE TREE AUTO MECHANIC . Sorry, I am showing my impatience with those who choose not to read, but spend lots of money on their ignorance......Your turn.......... :roll:
never said "what they are going for, I referred to the collectors of these guns, and how any of their firearms are finished in the first place, there is NO doubt what an original Colt,Winchester, or Parker ( and S&W'S) are going for as there are few if any that can replicate their FINE original finish, unlike many a Ruger in this case that may have left the factory after having been redone , gone over, rebuffed, polished and finished to cover flaws in the castings, i.e. "the plum" finish, None of these collectors are going to buy or 'savor" or fall in love with "plum" finishes and "seconds" , they just don't do that...as for coins, ONLY the very rare, and for the MOST part "uncirculated" ones are of any value, now of course, the metal itself has its own value ( weight) look at gold and silver.....you take a coin out of its "protected" plastic cae, and it becomes "handled" (circulated)??? I've seen and watched dealers ( buyers ) chastise 'sellers' for this, unlike just about any firearm that is handle, fondled, and as some folks suggest " EVERY GUN" is "proofed test fired",,,, then they are NOT "brand new, unfired, in the box...." (Commemeroratives may NOT be.......hhhmm....)
Sorry, 'Splitz' don;t mean to burst your bubble,but there is NO book that shows, in detail ,what these finishes actually appear, look and are to be "proven" as actual "period"...yes, they try using words and pictures to describe, but ONLY in the looking at, seeing touchng feeling, as well as KNOWING what process is (was) used at the time, and not just one or two guns, but many of like models as comparison, can one say for any certainty, 'this is how it is...." and today, ANY picture over the internet, is basically taken on its "merits",too easy to doctor (edit, photshop, whatever..) I will NOT tell anyone a set figure or value, based on a "picture" that is subjective....one reason, I do NOT do "on line" auctions,unless I send or go myself to "view" beforehand as ALL the reputable auction houses want, and offer as one of their services...and I know some photographers, from years gone by that did the picture taking for some of these places, and they did awesome, terrific work, and the catalogs are COSTLY !! as to time AND work, research, etc) but one still has to be very careful, we see folks get burned all the time, and yes, RL Wilson was one that got caught, small percentage of what happens in reality..............
NO I am NOT saying buy any and everything, and I too want ONLY what should be "original" to be a basis of MY collecting, but many people can only afford to buy what is available ,and many its just what they are handed down, (heirlooms) and or gifts, and have no control.............beginners buy ANY , just to get ONE, then hopefully "upgrade, buy another, sell off the 'poor example' and on and on, and some "Upgrade, by restoring what they have , for their OWN liking, use, want or need. Also just how many of YOU ever switched ANY part, screw, housing or grip panel to make yours "look better" ha ha, ,,,,,,,,,,,,same thing folks, same thing, " let he who is without sin, cast the first stone..." 8)
People restore cars, restore guns, toys and trains, but NOT coins............
Its when one does it to perpetrate a fraud or a hoax ( and in the case of RL Wilson, get caught), they should be punished, ................no, the Turnbulls and the Delgrecos of the world to name only two of MANY, get paid the BIG bucks, and their work itself is and has become "collectible".................
and they ain;t "plum, nor 'seconds".....................
Very subjective, and very opinionated topic, to say the least, with NO set answer,YOU the collector, have to set YOUR standards, and stick to them.
Sorry, 'Splitz' don;t mean to burst your bubble,but there is NO book that shows, in detail ,what these finishes actually appear, look and are to be "proven" as actual "period"...yes, they try using words and pictures to describe, but ONLY in the looking at, seeing touchng feeling, as well as KNOWING what process is (was) used at the time, and not just one or two guns, but many of like models as comparison, can one say for any certainty, 'this is how it is...." and today, ANY picture over the internet, is basically taken on its "merits",too easy to doctor (edit, photshop, whatever..) I will NOT tell anyone a set figure or value, based on a "picture" that is subjective....one reason, I do NOT do "on line" auctions,unless I send or go myself to "view" beforehand as ALL the reputable auction houses want, and offer as one of their services...and I know some photographers, from years gone by that did the picture taking for some of these places, and they did awesome, terrific work, and the catalogs are COSTLY !! as to time AND work, research, etc) but one still has to be very careful, we see folks get burned all the time, and yes, RL Wilson was one that got caught, small percentage of what happens in reality..............
NO I am NOT saying buy any and everything, and I too want ONLY what should be "original" to be a basis of MY collecting, but many people can only afford to buy what is available ,and many its just what they are handed down, (heirlooms) and or gifts, and have no control.............beginners buy ANY , just to get ONE, then hopefully "upgrade, buy another, sell off the 'poor example' and on and on, and some "Upgrade, by restoring what they have , for their OWN liking, use, want or need. Also just how many of YOU ever switched ANY part, screw, housing or grip panel to make yours "look better" ha ha, ,,,,,,,,,,,,same thing folks, same thing, " let he who is without sin, cast the first stone..." 8)
People restore cars, restore guns, toys and trains, but NOT coins............
Its when one does it to perpetrate a fraud or a hoax ( and in the case of RL Wilson, get caught), they should be punished, ................no, the Turnbulls and the Delgrecos of the world to name only two of MANY, get paid the BIG bucks, and their work itself is and has become "collectible".................
and they ain;t "plum, nor 'seconds".....................
Very subjective, and very opinionated topic, to say the least, with NO set answer,YOU the collector, have to set YOUR standards, and stick to them.
street
Hunter
HAWKEYE#28 said:
Hawkeye#28 I agree with what you say. These books don't cost very much, but the information that you get that helps you buy that one rare Ruger, or helps you not get taken by the not so rare Ruger., will pay for all the books that you buy. Wise up people, invest in a few of these Ruger Books. It will pay for itself 10 times over. :roll:
chet15
Hawkeye
rugerguy said:
Dan:
Are you saying Colt, Winchester, S&W, or whoever didn't somehow "fix" the guns that had minor issues, or even reblue, go over, rebuff, polish and finish the flaws in the castings/forgings etc. or even "fix" the color that they have after they come out of the bluing tanks before they shipped their "NEW" guns? If you think those "other" companies didn't do that you are really kidding yourself. Regardless of what those other companies did to make them "acceptable" before they left they factory, they were still "NEW ORIGINAL" condition when they left. Factory New is Factory New, So Factory New Rugers are just like every other make of guns whether they were rebuffed, fixed at the factory, whatever before being shipped through the distributor/dealer system originally. Thought I clarified what I was trying to say on that with my last post ???? Or should we all be suing the gun companies for selling something they "claim" to be NEW????
My original rant in this thread was because of the few here in Ruger collecting who are intentionally "restoring" these guns with a factory looking reblue and intentionally selling them to the unsuspecting for profit. To substantiate the problem is enabling the "work" you know has been done right along with all the perpetrators. I'm not sure even you know what's been redone and what hasn't via your past comments "If the finish looks "too good" it has probably been refinished".
rugerguy said:
People do restore coins....its called cleaning. To those who intentionally do it, they are trying to put back on what they think is an "original shiny NEW" finish. What it does though is take a substantial amount of value away from the coin that was once "original". There are many other dealers and coin companies who also clean or "dip" coins before selling them to the unsuspecting. It is no different than peddling a reblued Ruger as NEW to the unsuspecting. Price differences between cleaned coins and "original" coins also work about the same way as guns. A cleaned coin will be worth one to two grade levels less than an original coin. A reblued gun is also worth a like-amount less. But in each case, the "redone" coin or gun is substantially less desireable than when they were when they had an "original" finish. The difference is, you can't clean a coin and make it look new....at least the major grading services won't certify it as "original".
rugerguy said:
Again, I'd just about guarantee those "sloppy" finishes by those other companies were "fixed" by them before being sold as "NEW" guns. Is what QC is for. Having worked at Dan Wesson and who knows where else, are you really sticking by that argument?. Also there is a market for "seconds" of other companies as I've seen the listings in the blue book. One of them is an early S&W numbered model, page 1682 of the 31st Edition, "Model No. 1 Second Issue Tip UP, Second Quality" which states the model "may bring double or triple values over the Model Number 1 Second Issue tip up". So yes, "Seconds" of other companies can also bring big $
rugerguy said:
Dan...again you are saying and somehow trying to substantiate that "UN-ORIGINAL" guns are the same as FACTORY NEW FIREARMS that have been "handled, fondled, proof test fired" etc? They are not the same! Ruger is no different than any other company so I have to question why you keep coming to that conclusion, so don't try separating Rugers with any other company...every company does it the same way, and last I knew every company is still selling their product as NEW. Your motives are unclear.
As to coin collectors, they take coins out of their slabs for different reasons. Some collectors would rather have those coins busted out of their holders to put in their coin books (I'm one of them). Other collectors/dealers, and this is the most prevalent, will take the coin out of a slab and send it back to a grading company to have it re-graded in the hopes of achiving a higher grade (i.e. higher value). Busting a coin out of a slab does not take a coin's uncirculated status or other grade away from the coin. You cannot take an "original" finish off a coin by taking a coin out of its holder. Also, giving the argument about Rugers not really being "NEW" from the factory is like telling a coin collector that a coin in UNCIRCULATED condition is not really "uncirculated" because it is outside the building where it was made. How many coin collectors do you suppose will buy that argument??
Now what you may have heard from the dealers you quoted is somebody who has had a coin graded by one of the "other" third party grading services who will severely overgrade the coins sent to them. Here you are talking about the same thing....a dealer who knowingly sells a coin slabbed by one of these "other" grading services which is overgraded and the dealer has it priced at what the holder grade is, frauding the buyer of his $. Again, this is no different than selling a reblued gun for "ORIGINAL".
rugerguy said:
Really? Again, the subject of my rant...you know who they are.
Chet15
clocks
Bearcat
WOW
This thread should be published,so every gun collector of every brand could read it. Really helpful.
Leon
This thread should be published,so every gun collector of every brand could read it. Really helpful.
Leon
radicalrod
Hunter
Well I don't see anymore use for this post other than we got a lot of "DIRTY LAUNDRY" aired out......let see if I can hit the highlights
1 REBLUING is BAD
2 only mint unused guns have any collector value
3 some old guns "age" much better than others
4 if the gun is RARE enough a reblue is OK as long as admitted too
5 people actually believe they collect guns for a retirement account NOT because it is a hobby
6 lots of opinions and no substantiation
7 You don't eat PARSLEY :lol: :lol: :lol: ( a punch line from an old joke)
8 send me all your old unwanted RUGERS that need a good home where they will be loved no matter how they look......
9 and 10 save for later.......see ya RR.
1 REBLUING is BAD
2 only mint unused guns have any collector value
3 some old guns "age" much better than others
4 if the gun is RARE enough a reblue is OK as long as admitted too
5 people actually believe they collect guns for a retirement account NOT because it is a hobby
6 lots of opinions and no substantiation
7 You don't eat PARSLEY :lol: :lol: :lol: ( a punch line from an old joke)
8 send me all your old unwanted RUGERS that need a good home where they will be loved no matter how they look......
9 and 10 save for later.......see ya RR.
chet15
Hawkeye
Yeah, well...I suppose that about covers it.
Chet15 :mrgreen:
Chet15 :mrgreen:
Good one RR :lol:
To me, a non-collector, the the main thing I took from the discussion was the need for personal integrity and full disclosure in all dealings. If a gun is reblued and I like it, I'll buy it but it is nice to be told about the work ahead of time. It is still a fun hobby!
P.S. if there are "known" proven secret restorers out there as alluded to then maybe they should be outed. Otherwise quiet acquiescence simply is allowing the practice to continue at the expense of the hobby. JMTCW
Robb
To me, a non-collector, the the main thing I took from the discussion was the need for personal integrity and full disclosure in all dealings. If a gun is reblued and I like it, I'll buy it but it is nice to be told about the work ahead of time. It is still a fun hobby!
P.S. if there are "known" proven secret restorers out there as alluded to then maybe they should be outed. Otherwise quiet acquiescence simply is allowing the practice to continue at the expense of the hobby. JMTCW
Robb
right on Radical, no need for a discourse on pure "BS"... love how one has the time to try and turn things around and not pay attention to what I even meant or said........
Chad you have NO friggen clue son.........wow
Colt,Smith and some of the others did NOT ship guns that came out looking like the Ruger, on the 'average'......... they SCRAPPED 'em
I worked at Dan Wesson, and I made NO comment as to them, as they too had "issues" and lots of RED /PLUM guns, and a bad reputation and lack of support, and collecting of these guns, tough sells back then due to this.
I don't have to win friends, influence people, nor sell books.............
I am tired of repeating myself and trying to compete with some smart A$$,snott nosed ,wet behind the ears, punk kid..........
and have 'lost' TOTAL respect for you.
Chad you have NO friggen clue son.........wow
Colt,Smith and some of the others did NOT ship guns that came out looking like the Ruger, on the 'average'......... they SCRAPPED 'em
I worked at Dan Wesson, and I made NO comment as to them, as they too had "issues" and lots of RED /PLUM guns, and a bad reputation and lack of support, and collecting of these guns, tough sells back then due to this.
I don't have to win friends, influence people, nor sell books.............
I am tired of repeating myself and trying to compete with some smart A$$,snott nosed ,wet behind the ears, punk kid..........
and have 'lost' TOTAL respect for you.
NEW summary.........BS is money if you sell "green" manure......That said, I am happy with my four decades of knowledge and I WILL SHARE(knowledge)........That is my current and probably forever job, now that I am in my 8th decade(seventy two in August)Tanko is close behind me(younger 8) ) All of you youngsters need reference books..(.BUY THEM!!)I have been places you do not want to go(to) and will share.........MIKE
chet15
Hawkeye
rugerguy said:
Dan...then you need to mean what you say and say what you mean, eh...instead of spouting out half-truths without thinking about them first. Or maybe have somebody else read back to you what you said in your comments and see for yourself how silly they sound. I for one won't be flip-flopping on my comments in this thread, which by the way I know you haven't forgotten...you know...the knowledge of supposedly "honest" collectors knowingly selling reblued UNORIGINAL guns to unsuspecting collectors (by the way, everybody here on RF must be wondering why you aren't speaking out about this problem...seems you are only condoning it by saying "Well, Ruger rebuffs, refnishes...blah blah blah before they ever leave the factory"). Me wet behind the ears? I don't see you speaking up whatsoever, you are only condoning.
The subject remains the same and will remain the same until these newbies (and even seasoned collectors) know the difference between what is ORIGINAL and what isn't....and the difference between which is really the most desireable. You can be defiant about the subject all you want, but for one who talks about being in the business for so long you'd think you'd know the difference.
No, No...I take that back...I know you know the difference. You just choose to aid and abet because certainly some of you know there is a buck to be made, and what you're really saying is its OK to rip somebody off. And I don't say it to sell books. Every one of you ought to know the truth and I'm not going to stand back and continue to watch it happen without saying something. You want to say how great it is to see this happening, I'm calling you out on it.
Chet15
Tucsonite
Single-Sixer
It seems that the topic has turned abit sour. Personally I have plated at least 5 guns, and have had 4 guns re-blued/restored, only on 2 of them did I lose money when I decided to sell. the 1st one was a drilled and tapped 357 flattop that after being repaired and re-blued the hole was still obvious. I sold it as such and lost close to $200 on it. the other was a Type I Flatgate Single Six that I had plated, I knew going into it that I spent too much buying the gun, as I got into a bidding war with another forum member on Gun-broker. when I decided to sell it I knew I would never get back what I had into it. Now if I had had it restored I would have been fine and am sure I would have got my money back out of it.
All the Guns I had restored I sold as such and made money on them. Serial # 144 flattop is a good example as It is a Low Number, and was in horrible condition when I got it. I had some Ohio magic done on it and when I found a gun I wanted more I did some trading.
here is the gun I wanted
I got $1500.00 trade value on it as a restored gun for it. Definitely was a profitable transaction for me.
I don't know anyone who deliberately sells re-blues as NIB but if there are those who do. Shame on them.
Dan
Personally I have plated at least 5 guns, and have had 4 guns re-blued/restored, only on 2 of them did I lose money when I decided to sell. the 1st one was a drilled and tapped 357 flattop that after being repaired and re-blued the hole was still obvious. I sold it as such and lost close to $200 on it. the other was a Type I Flatgate Single Six that I had plated, I knew going into it that I spent too much buying the gun, as I got into a bidding war with another forum member on Gun-broker. when I decided to sell it I knew I would never get back what I had into it. Now if I had had it restored I would have been fine and am sure I would have got my money back out of it.All the Guns I had restored I sold as such and made money on them. Serial # 144 flattop is a good example as It is a Low Number, and was in horrible condition when I got it. I had some Ohio magic done on it and when I found a gun I wanted more I did some trading.
here is the gun I wanted
I got $1500.00 trade value on it as a restored gun for it. Definitely was a profitable transaction for me.
I don't know anyone who deliberately sells re-blues as NIB but if there are those who do. Shame on them.
Dan
