Red Eagle found

[radicalrod]

So when an old Winchester is redone buy one of the BIG NAME restorers it is worth less than if it hadn't been touched.....how do those guys stay in business ???? Or is it just RUGERS that lose value....I DO realize that a 100 % untouched gun is worth more than a restored gun all being equal....BUT once again there is a lot of difference in the words RESTORED and REDONE or REBLUED.... I am with TA on this...I have a few RE's that Rugerguy has painstakingly RESTORED for me.....Dan did this as a favor to me AND the pistol ........why leave them in a state of disrepair with no real value....how can making them look original make them worth less.....an everyday model is not a candidate for a restoration but early numbered and or rare variations are another thing........of course if I happened upon # 15 Single Six I think I would leave it in it's beat up, well used shape....so there are considerations for everything.....nothing is ever clear cut :lol: :lol: :lol: JMO and once again it is worth what ya paid for it
see ya RR.

 

[chet15]

Yeah...Colt and Winchesters are different I guess from "their" perspective, I.M.O.
I don't have nearly the pucker factor those guys do for restored stuff.
And anyway, you should see all the near mint to mint Colts and Winchesters that were available in the old Shotgun News's I have from the 1950's and 1960's. That stuff is out there, its just salted way in expensive collections.
But can everybody tell the difference between a "restored" 1886 Winchester and one that has its original minty finish? Which one is worth more? So potentially one day Winchester collecting could possibly see more mint 1886 Winchesters for example than guns that are well used?
Just tough for me to see the fun in that (maybe I compare too much with coin collecting because most of the "GOOD" coins have been cleaned in some way to the point that there are very few that have been left in original condition).
Don't get me wrong, there are a few rare Rugers out there like guns with holes in topstraps, etc. that look much better with a plugged topstrap and good refinish. But hopefully my grandkids won't be in the Ruger collecting hobby a few decades from now with a wad of cash burning holes in their pockets for those Rugers which you can't tell.
J.M.H.O., but some of you guys are getting burned today by reblued stuff.
Chet15

 

[radicalrod]

Hey Chet, they aren't getting OLDER......JUST BETTER :lol: :lol: :lol: RR

 

[street]

I would rather have a very well done Factory re-blue or a Rugerguy restored gun in my collection then a 50% gun. But I would rather have a mint untouched example then either of the above.
This is the order I would like:
#1--- Untouched example in mint shape.
#2--- Factory re-blue or Rugerguy restoration.
#3---50% gun.


If you guys don't like a gun that's been re-blued, which means not original. How do you feel about a gun that has a box that is not original to the gun. :wink: That package is not factory original. Yes you can't tell the difference between boxes, but the bottom line, It's not original. If you don't like a gun that's been re-blued then you shouldn't have a box that's not original to the gun!!! :lol: :twisted: :lol:

 

[chet15]

I would rather have a very well done Factory re-blue or a Rugerguy restored gun in my collection then a 50% gun. But I would rather have a mint untouched example then either of the above.
This is the order I would like:
#1--- Untouched example in mint shape.
#2--- Factory re-blue or Rugerguy restoration.
#3---50% gun.


If you guys don't like a gun that's been re-blued, which means not original. How do you feel about a gun that has a box that is not original to the gun. :wink: That package is not factory original. Yes you can't tell the difference between boxes, but the bottom line, It's not original. If you don't like a gun that's been re-blued then you shouldn't have a box that's not original to the gun!!! :lol: :twisted: :lol:

Yeah, like taking an abused pair of grips or ejector housing with light pitting off a gun and putting the same type parts back on that are much nicer. Or replacing a boogered screw...same difference really, and one can't tell once its done. I know, is the same thing, but to me is much different than putting a "non-original" finish back on a gun, and that is the key to me anyway.
As to boxes, there are so many that have been separated from their guns that I don't think there are too many collectors that care one way or the other whether the box has the original numbers on the gun or not, at least there doesn't seem to be any price differential with collectors between guns with original box and guns with original "type" box.
But one day...somebody will start printing OM Ruger SA boxes, and lets all hope they will be somehow different than the originals.
So to me a reprinted box would be the same as a reblued gun, with neither being "original era production"
Chet15

 

[martyj]

If you guys don't like a gun that's been re-blued, which means not original. How do you feel about a gun that has a box that is not original to the gun. :wink: That package is not factory original. Yes you can't tell the difference between boxes, but the bottom line, It's not original. If you don't like a gun that's been re-blued then you shouldn't have a box that's not original to the gun!!!

Very good point! Never thought of it that way before.
Its all on how you perceive it I guess. A shinny firearm doesn't necessarily shoot better than a rusty one.
I myself never figured out why most people prefer a 3 digit single six over a red eagle when if it wasn't for the success of the red eagle the single six would of never came into existence.

 

[street]

Yea! We collectors are a strange bunch. We will accept replaced parts different grips, different boxes and paperwork the same as if those parts were the original parts that came with the gun. But come Hell or high water a re-blued gun is only good for a boat anchor. It's got to be something wrong with us gun collectors and the way that we think. :roll:

 

[HAWKEYE#28]

Yea! We collectors are a strange bunch. We will accept replaced parts different grips, different boxes and paperwork the same as if those parts were the original parts that came with the gun. But come Hell or high water a re-blued gun is only good for a boat anchor. It's got to be something wrong with us gun collectors and the way that we think. :roll:

Yes, however, a rust bucket of a GTO(as an example; many others apply) can be off frame restored using all NOS parts and be worth just as much, if not more, than an original survivor.......Still haven't figured out that reverse "logic". :?
Second, one of my Friends and sometimes "Critic", notes that "something"(like3 a Ruger OM) well/superbly done(reworked, re-done, parts[un-numbered] and/or boxes replaced, ) is "just one owner or generation from factory original/minty"........" Ala, silence is golden....Pays to be very careful, questioning and always observant, BEFORE reeaching into your pocket for the $'s. 8) And Yes, I know who the SILENT re-workers are, or at least, SOME of them...... :roll:

 

[T.A. WORKMAN]

I truly believe that a Ruger factory re-blue, or a professionaly Restored
gun deserves to be rated at 80% not 60%. Its not in the collector class of
95% or better but its damm sure one at the top of the shooter class.

The future of our hobby rests in the hands of the young collectors on this site and others. It is they who will establish values and prices paid and hopefuly they will revisit this issue. I fully understand and appreciate the Purist concept of as close to 100% as possible, but like grandma used to say "Theres more than one plate on the table"

Old Cars, Guns (Colt Win,Purdy, LC Smith etc), Antique Furniture, Documents etc. in poor condition and restored Increase in Value ???
Would you rather see an old gun Restored or parted out???? Once a
gun is parted out it is gone! A Restored gun remains as an example of what a gun of that era looked like.

My gun was lucky if you rated it 50% (grips were very good) and the guy I got it off of had it for sale for $300.00 and no takers (months), I bought it for $250.00. The grips alone are worth more than I paid for the gun so
I could justify having Dan Restore it. All Dans work is done by hand with a carefull eye to detail (lettering & numbers) with as close to an original finish as possible with all original parts. If I would have sent the gun to Ruger they would have changed out some parts I'm sure and used machines to prep the gun and the blueing would be whats currently used.

I have always been up front on this gun and as stated Its not for sale. To
me it is a Beautifully Restored 1950 example of a Type IA Red Eagle,Auto Pistol which launched the Ruger Firearms Company that we all enjoy today.
JMHO!
Terry

 

[HAWKEYE#28]

Terry, I like and enjoy your style and logic 8)

 

[americal]

This has been a most interesting posting :!: :!: Enjoyed it--ya'll did good & no one got bent out of shape :lol: :lol:

 

[street]

I truly believe that a Ruger factory re-blue, or a professionaly Restored
gun deserves to be rated at 80% not 60%. Its not in the collector class of
95% or better but its damm sure one at the top of the shooter class.

The future of our hobby rests in the hands of the young collectors on this site and others. It is they who will establish values and prices paid and hopefuly they will revisit this issue. I fully understand and appreciate the Purist concept of as close to 100% as possible, but like grandma used to say "Theres more than one plate on the table"

Old Cars, Guns (Colt Win,Purdy, LC Smith etc), Antique Furniture, Documents etc. in poor condition and restored Increase in Value ???
Would you rather see an old gun Restored or parted out???? Once a
gun is parted out it is gone! A Restored gun remains as an example of what a gun of that era looked like.

My gun was lucky if you rated it 50% (grips were very good) and the guy I got it off of had it for sale for $300.00 and no takers (months), I bought it for $250.00. The grips alone are worth more than I paid for the gun so
I could justify having Dan Restore it. All Dans work is done by hand with a carefull eye to detail (lettering & numbers) with as close to an original finish as possible with all original parts. If I would have sent the gun to Ruger they would have changed out some parts I'm sure and used machines to prep the gun and the blueing would be whats currently used.

I have always been up front on this gun and as stated Its not for sale. To
me it is a Beautifully Restored 1950 example of a Type IA Red Eagle,Auto Pistol which launched the Ruger Firearms Company that we all enjoy today.
JMHO!
Terry

Terry, I would rather have your gun then an 80% to 90% gun. I know most collectors think otherwise, but I think your gun should be worth more then most collectors would give for it. I had a couple of re-blued guns in my collection for years. I keep them because I couldn't find any 98% to mint guns to replace them with. I found a few 90% to 95% guns, but I still liked the re-blued guns better. When I started selling my collection, I always noted to the buyer that the guns were re-blued. I had trouble getting rid of them, but I never wavered from this. I always noted that they were re-blued.

Maybe some years down the line collectors will accept the re-blued Rugers as good examples will be next to impossible to find. You know, there are a lot of people that just have to shoot a gun they have, no matter how rare it is. But until then, collectors, before you invest in a re-blued Ruger, remember it is going to be very hard to sell. Only buy it because you like and want it.

 

[chet15]

But until then, collectors, before you invest in a re-blued Ruger, remember it is going to be very hard to sell. Only buy it because you like and want it.

Ditto! Some very wise words there! We learned early on, and the culls (dogs and reblued guns) were replaced as soon as we found 98+% guns. The only reblue we kept was Super Blackhawk #357 and it is such a good reblue we thought it was factory. But it turned out to have been shipped a few months before Ruger started putting a high polish on them. Kept it because of the sn.
Chet15

 

[rugerguy]

yessir, tough to put together a "collection" and as said, you get what you can and 'hopefully' upgrade to a finer example to replace it later on, and you display what is yours, and as longs as its "noted" it stands on its own, a type or variation is what it is, the condition can and will figure into any judging criteria ,but how many folks actually display?? few really.......
I recall years ago, when Laura first displayed along with Jeff M, and Donnie F, they had some really rare and scarce stuff, "original " condition, and they would get beat out ( score lower) by 'others' who had stuff that was nice and shiny and sparkly, and "claimed to be original..." ??? condition , when in fact it was NOT..........................
anytime ANY one tells you its "brand new, unfired, in the box..." little lights & alarms should go off in your head.............. :roll:

 

[martyj]

This one is older than I thought
http://s576.photobucket.com/albums/ss203/martyj87/?action=view&current=03-15-2011071523AM.jpg

 

[radicalrod]

MAN, you got a REALLY EARLY one.......about 2 years before the rest do you think it is right or just a typo ??? I am guessing typo......RR.

 

[martyj]

Earliest one I have ever heard of but Im going with a typo.

 

[chet15]

I gotta add this, because it is just driving me nuts, on the thoughts I wrote in this thread about "professionally reblued", "refinished", "restored" guns or whatever you guys want to call them. To me, this is a serious issue that needs to be dealt with because even though some of you would rather avert your attention when you know this is going on...there is serious $ being spent right now on guns that should have a factory original finish on them. I can tell you of at least three very big Ruger collectors that are regular Forum members here who have spent big $ on guns for their collections because they were supposed to be original and they are not.
If you know what the term "accumulation of error" means in the construction business, these exact same "reblued, non original finsih Rugers will continue to get traded amongst other well-intentioned collectors....to the point where nobody will know whether their minty Rugers have been redone or not, and when you tell them in the future their guns don't have an original finish they're going to get PO'd at you.
The same argument exists with Ruger's factory stag and ivory grip panels. Nobody knows anymore what pairs are original and which are not.
That's the sharp stick in Ruger collecting that drives me nuts.
To me "NEW" means "NEW", "FACTORY ORIGINAL" means "FACTORY ORIGINAL" and "professionally restored" is NEITHER!!
Its up to you guys to determine the "culls" from the good ones.
J.M.H.O., Chet15
P.S....I've got a gun listed in the Reference of Ruger Firearms that would be a rare variation anyway just because it was a short production run, but the gun is also a "one of a kind" because it is "different" in one way that is not the same as the others that are known. I really considered this to be a true one of a kind great discovery....then I heard who the current owner purchased it from and the the circumstances under which the previous owner "announced revelation and bewilderment" that he had no idea it looked that way. In short...this is the exact same reason I observed three pair of supposedly factory ivory XR3 panels on a collectors' table in the mid 1980's with "POST 1966" black eagle medallions, no less. The people faking this stuff and rebluing for a healthy "collector" profit don't even know what the guns or other items even looked like to make a good enough fake!!
Chet15

 

[HAWKEYE#28]

Well.........Supposition, accusation, rumors and subterfuge, with perhaps other terrms applicable. That said, formal libel charges would abound if the accused and the accuser are put into the public domain's spotlight. Not sure how one proves this without a sting operation of some type. We have all understood that un-numbered parts, ala ERH, GF, Action parts(all), ER, ER spring etc, can be and have been replaced in a myriad of Ruger handguns.........No way to stop that. A box is a box, china marker SN's not withstanding either. Mind you, I am not discussing re-blue, re-finish, grip making, just parts and boxes. I suffer no shame, heartache or malice for proper parts and/or box replacement. Life is too damn short to fuss about that stuff. Just saying..........Have at it, Stalwarts.

 

[clocks]

Chet 15
Does all this also pertain to a factory gun reblued back in the 70s with a letter or work order?? :roll: :roll:
Leon