Red Eagle found

[chet15]

Chet 15
Does all this also pertain to a factory gun reblued back in the 70s with a letter or work order?? :roll: :roll:
Leon

I.M.O., even a factory reblue is not a factory original finish....anybody can do it...doesn't matter if the factory did it or not. Is the same to me as somebody plating a gun, engraving a gun, special grips, etc. etc....it is all after-factory. It will never be worth as much as a factory original gun....and the more guns get reblued, the less factory "original" finish guns are out there....so the value of the factory finish guns should be going up, right? Unfortunately, some of you guys are spending huge $ on reblues.
As far as Splits comment above about "Supposition, accusation, rumors and subterfuge, with perhaps other terms applicable. That said, formal libel charges would abound if the accused and the accuser are put into the public domain's spotlight"....Splitz, these revelations have come about because of certain circumstances that have arisen between certain individuals and my notes as well as Ruger's process of manufacture. I.E. One collector sees a specific gun one day with wear, and the next month year or 10 years later it is mint.
What I don't care for is the person who knowingly passes such junk onto the next unknowing collector for profit. It should be an embarrassment to the individual who sells a minty OM for example with bluing salts oozing out of the front sight base (this happened to us when we first got heavy into collecting...no it wasn't us that did the rebluing). And then, these guns get traded so much that in a few years collectors will probably even be giving credence to guns with smeared rollmarks, or blued over rustpits.
Don't get me wrong though, if you guys like 'em, go ahead and keep buying them. I'm no dog in the hunt.
Chet15

 

[HAWKEYE#28]

Well, for the most part, I am not in disagreement with your observations, and I am confident that you know that from numerous and historical discussions. The issue, amongst a few others, remains that this problem is fostered by not identifying the person(s) doing the "rework". Just noting, without a name, usually by word of mouth, will not "get the job done". Some of us can look at a firearm and for the largest part, know that a rework has occurred somewhere before that day's viewing. The level of confidence is present because of experiences, both good and not so good. Lesser experienced viewers do not have this advantage. Younger(age and/or exposure to the collecting world) participants are at a distinct disadvantage. Sure, we could publish a list of the "bad" guys, but that is not going to happen, other than the name of the guy, one Christiansen, in California at the time, who manufactured "authentic" Ruger "factory" ivory and stag XR3 grip panel sets.............For the rest, all I have heard
are "he" or "They" or "someone". It is difficult to combat the fabricators and rework charlatans, without a name. Not all of us will lay it on the line and publish the name(s)....Yes, there are some that I would never ever buy or trade with. BTW, I think after market engraved firearms stand alone in valuation, based on the beholder's eye, provenance, style, level of expertise and embellishment percentage. They are not in the classic sense, "reworks"........Some of you must have something to say about all of this matter, so why the vast silence? MIKE 8)

 

[chet15]

Some of you must have something to say about all of this matter, so why the vast silence? MIKE 8)

Yes...is taboo. But surely Mike and I aren't the only ones to have agreement on this...you guys know who they are, so maybe 'nuff said???
It still burns me though that every now and again I hear of sombody getting burned, and I'm not talking about the burnee being lesser experienced collectors.
But I agree with you on engraved guns, after market engraving that is. Everybody knows they have been done after factory anyway...and there won't be any letter coming from the factory saying otherwise. So they are what they are, and hold their value based on the "eye of the beholder".
Speaking of engraved guns, even the original Jerred Engraved Single-Sixes are reblues. Did everybody know that? Yes, Jerred cut the engraving on many of the components through blued parts as it was easier to keep a handle on the work being done. So when they returned to the factory after being cut by Jerred those previously blued components were essentially dipped in the bluing salts a second time. The difference is, those guns left the factory originally to the buyer/distributor only once as the product described as RSSE or RSSEC.
Chet15

 

[radicalrod]

Well ya can't have it both ways...I bought an ARAMEX auto that was listed in RENE for sale....listed as redone.....everything in the ad was said to be for sale at RENE Values.....everything but THIS gun cause...seems someone at RENE advised the seller that the RENE price was low....even though it was a REBLUED GUN....heck I still bought it...how many do you see for sale ???? I am NOT complaining but just musing the difference in my head.....RR

 

[chet15]

Well ya can't have it both ways...I bought an ARAMEX auto that was listed in RENE for sale....listed as redone.....everything in the ad was said to be for sale at RENE Values.....everything but THIS gun cause...seems someone at RENE advised the seller that the RENE price was low....even though it was a REBLUED GUN....heck I still bought it...how many do you see for sale ???? I am NOT complaining but just musing the difference in my head.....RR

Rod, a gun will bring what the market will bear. The gun was listed as reblued but still sold. Also, what is an Armamex worth today, reblued or original finish? Does the RENE price truly reflect what they "should" be worth, reblued or original finish? Its been my experience that that some of the auto variations are truly underpriced because there really aren't that many auto collectors out there, certainly not enough to fill out the RENE price guide questionaire. Remember though, I'm not the one that determines the prices, you guys are.
My point however is, the gun still sold...so was it underpriced? You may have answered that question.
When pricing something we've always had the mentality that you can always come down a little...some bargaining leverage. But when you are already priced low, you can't go back up...well you can, but we don't.
Chet15

 

[T.A. WORKMAN]

I truly hope that the younger collectors are following this thread, alot
of good thought and ideas.

Mike,,, I agree 100% with the fact that being able to name the individule
doing the work and his credentials as such being recognized by Ruger Collectors as doing quality work would be an asset. I also like the idea
of a stand alone group for after factory work.

I have never thought that my gun should be valued as a "mint" gun, but to lump a beautifully restored gun into the 60% class is B.S. IMHO.
I think that RR's Armex is proof enough of that. He knew what he was buying and willing to pay the freight!!!!!!

The whole key here is Honesty!!! All I can say is that "I can only be responsible for myself"

 

[chet15]

The whole key here is Honesty!!! All I can say is that "I can only be responsible for myself"

Yep...you hit the nail squarely on the head.
Another thing, I know for a fact some of the newer collectors aren't buying because they are alert enough not to get sucked into such a trap (Is it factory or is it reblued?). This is also affecting the market because at least one of these guys was known to spend some pretty big $. So...THIS AFFECTS EVERYBODY, meaning it is already tougher than it should be to sell minty guns (or er, um...reblued).
Chet15

 

[HAWKEYE#28]

Let's see. A gentleman by the name of Trembly, as I recall, spent some 1800 dollars with me19 years ago, for an Armamex I bought out of a mexican crate down Houston way , twenty years ago. Seems there was a market then and I remain sorry I did not obtain the last one I saw. It was the highest condition gun known at that time ..........Based on the history and small numbers of those that returned here, or survived at all, I think the Mexicans are underpriced..In any condition......Just saying........... 8)

 

[Ale-8(1)]

I am REALLY enjoying this thread.

I have many opinions on this subject, but am staying up here on the porch listening to the BIG DAWGS.

I find the points that are being avoided as interesting as those being discussed.

Carry on, gentlemen.

:mrgreen:

 

[Tucsonite]

OK Chet15,

I understand your concerns and have some of my own, but a properly restored gun is worth way more than a shooter IMO, but how do you explain the High Polish 357's of the 3 digit variety? Where they were Refinished (sometimes multiple times)by the Factory trying to get rid of the bad plum color :shock: yet they bring a premium not a deduct. is this any different in your opinion?

Dan

 

[chet15]

OK Chet15,
I understand your concerns and have some of my own, but a properly restored gun is worth way more than a shooter IMO, but how do you explain the High Polish 357's of the 3 digit variety?

The high polish 3-digit .357's didn't leave the factory until they had the high polish on them, so they were factory original finish...as in they left the factory originally with that finish and went straight into the distributor/dealer system as "NEW" guns.
Guns that were sent back to the factory and "Returned to stock" where they were refinished, rebarreled or whatever, were often (not always) stamped with an "S" are also factory original finish guns because again, they were sold through the distributor/dealer system as a new gun straight from Ruger. Maybe that's the key that I'm not fully expressing with this....the gun needs to have been sold as a "NEW" gun from the factory...and a factory "NEW" gun to me means it has a "factory original" finish...Stock. Somebody sends a gun back to Ruger to have it reblued...it may be a factory finish, but its not a factory original finish. And that should be like apples and oranges when considering the price difference between the two.

Where they were Refinished (sometimes multiple times)by the Factory trying to get rid of the bad plum color :shock: yet they bring a premium not a deduct. is this any different in your opinion?
Dan

I'd have to say that for those who returned their early Single-Sixes (per the discoloration notice) and the guns were returned to them, I gotta say they're not an original finish...it was done for the owner. And again, anybody has the ability to reblue a gun. Its really no different than somebody sending a non-purple gun back for refinishing.
I'd think that early in the game that if somebody sent an early purple framed Single-Six back to the factory to have it redone that Ruger may have put the buffing wheel to it, smearing some of the markings, because at that time Ruger didn't know what was causing the problem (i.e. High Polish .357's). I guess I can't recall seeing a heavily buffed Type 1 Single-Six (maybe that number 133 years ago at an '80's Monroeville show), but when you see it I'm sure everybody would think its a reblue anyway.

I do agree with you that a reblue will be worth more on the market than a "shooter" grade gun that nobody looks at. Thats because it has more aesthetic appeal to a potential buyer. But my beef is those individuals who are purposely re-doing those "Shooters" and selling them as factory original.
J.M.O. and I'm sure its different from everybody else's, but I treat a reblued gun as if it has 0% original finish and it does....there is -0- original finish left on that gun. So its got to be a super huge rarity for it to be desireable for me to put it away...like maybe a reblued Armamex laying on a gunshow table, etc. ...because anything else and the saleability really sucks.


Chet15

 

[Robb Barnes]

This has been a very interesting thread to follow guys. As you know, I make no claims to be a "Ruger Collector" but am more of a Ruger converter. After the discourse on the supposedly unfired 6 1/2" flat top with what was sold to me as factory ivories and the advice about the Ross gun that TA pointed out a few days ago that I put the backup offer on and ended up buying it confirms what I have felt for quite a while. Ruger collecting may be a neat hobby but it is too fraught with eventualities to make it something a shooter like me would ever want to get into. I have never bought a gun as a collector but because I like the gun, the features or the condition. I think it will be pretty tough for new guys to get into the Ruger collecting hobby due to both the scruples of some sellers and the shall we say "stalwartness" of some of the stalwarts. I will enjoy reading the posts and continueing to learn but it doesn't sound like something a new person can enjoy getting into. Me I will stick to my custom conversions and move any odd guns I find on to you guys with FULL disclosure as best I know.

Not trying to be a stick in the mud or pointing any fingers but when the poster asked about the silence I figured I had permission to insert my two cents worth.

Robb

 

[rugnelli]

Wow, I have been passing this thread for days because it didn't look very interesting... Boy was I ever wrong!

This is an interesting topic with excellent comments. While I am about as far as you can get from a "Big Dawg", I am not afraid to make a few comments. Just thought I would warn everyone.

I completely agree with chet. Factory original finish is just that, factory original in any condition or grade it may be.

In my opinion a reblue job results in a pretty (sometimes) shooter or budget priced collector.

A factory original restoration job (like the one shown earlier in this thread) can be a thing of beauty if done correctly and would definitely increase value. The value would still not approach a factory original finish firearm. It is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. That is where the collector price is realized. After full disclosure it is worth what the buyer will pay for it. Low serial number, rare variation, etc. all play into it and prices would no doubt fluctuate widely depending on where it was offered for sale and the individuals looking to purchase.

Parts swapping is kind of tricky. To me if they are in their factory original condition when removed from one firearm and installed on another... no harm no foul. If they are reworked prior to installation... that would be a different story.

True factory original finish guns in all conditions are out there and their conditions will never increase. There is a finite amount of them.

Something to think about: A reconditioned gun can be made at any time from a less desireable specimen. If it is able to be produced at any time, why would it be worth as much as factory original? A couple of reasons might be a low serial number or a rare variation. The value would then not only reflect the rarity but also the restoration to "original" condition. In these instances of rare firearms, it appears justified to restore a tired firearm to it's former glory. As long as it is noted as such. Although in the instance of a super-rare one of a kind firearm, I might argue original finish no matter what it is would be preferred.

Lastly, if I knew that someone was knowingly misrepresenting a firearm, I would without hesitation let everyone know about it...

Sorry for the long post from someone that probably nobody wants to hear from...

rugnelli

 

[martyj]

I think deep down most of us would prefer original condition. Even though it might not be as nice as looking as a quality redone one.
As far as judging them for display purpose that should be the first thing on their list is originality. There are plenty of sharp guys out there that can tell the difference.
For example there are not to many of us that when we have an accident with our vehicle ask for after market part replacement even though the after market might be just as good or better than the original.
Or on the other hand look at it from another side. May West and Rachel Welsh were factory original parts compared to what you might get now days for super models. Now days with advanced technology your super model could of been someones little brother at one time.
Just some food for thought. A little work in the right hands I might even be nice looking. Take a lot of work though.
Have a good day

 

[T.A. WORKMAN]

Wow, I have been passing this thread for days because it didn't look very interesting... Boy was I ever wrong!

This is an interesting topic with excellent comments. While I am about as far as you can get from a "Big Dawg", I am not afraid to make a few comments. Just thought I would warn everyone.

I completely agree with chet. Factory original finish is just that, factory original in any condition or grade it may be.

In my opinion a reblue job results in a pretty (sometimes) shooter or budget priced collector.

A factory original restoration job (like the one shown earlier in this thread) can be a thing of beauty if done correctly and would definitely increase value. The value would still not approach a factory original finish firearm. It is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. That is where the collector price is realized. After full disclosure it is worth what the buyer will pay for it. Low serial number, rare variation, etc. all play into it and prices would no doubt fluctuate widely depending on where it was offered for sale and the individuals looking to purchase.

Parts swapping is kind of tricky. To me if they are in their factory original condition when removed from one firearm and installed on another... no harm no foul. If they are reworked prior to installation... that would be a different story.

True factory original finish guns in all conditions are out there and their conditions will never increase. There is a finite amount of them.

Something to think about: A reconditioned gun can be made at any time from a less desireable specimen. If it is able to be produced at any time, why would it be worth as much as factory original? A couple of reasons might be a low serial number or a rare variation. The value would then not only reflect the rarity but also the restoration to "original" condition. In these instances of rare firearms, it appears justified to restore a tired firearm to it's former glory. As long as it is noted as such. Although in the instance of a super-rare one of a kind firearm, I might argue original finish no matter what it is would be preferred.

Lastly, if I knew that someone was knowingly misrepresenting a firearm, I would without hesitation let everyone know about it...

Sorry for the long post from someone that probably nobody wants to hear from...
rugnelli

rugenelli,
You are WRONG! Your imput and thoughts as a collector/shooter are more than welcome. As I stated earlier, Its the young Ruger collectors and Ruger collectors of the future who are going to have to sort this out.
Your points and opinion's are as valuable as anyone else's.

I am not a BIG DAWG either, I just put my $0.02 in and state what I belive, no hard feelings, no misconceptions. I try to be as honest and forthright as I can when describing a gun and thats all I can do.
Unfortunately with money involved alot of people ignore this principle that is where the true problem lies.
Again thanks for yours and everyone else's imput!! It is from threads such as these that we ALL learn!!!
Terry

 

[chet15]

If I weren't so much a study of coin collecting I might have a different opinion about re-blued guns. But it has always been important for a coin to have its original finish. Throw it in the gold or silver cleaner before you sell it to a dealer and you'll no longer get collector value for it, you'll only get bullion value for it (i.e. collector grade/shooter grade). And believe me when I say that the larger percentage of older coins have been cleaned at some time in their past...everybody did it. That's why the original condition coins are worth so much more today, because the rules of supply and demand increase its value seemingly exponentially. The ones that will always bring the big $ are the ones that will always have their original finish.
For new collectors, its nothing to get all confused about...but if you are going to buy guns for investment, and in the end they always turn out to be an investement, always buy the best condition examples that you are able to afford. The same rules apply in coin collecting.
Chet15

 

[T.A. WORKMAN]

If I weren't so much a study of coin collecting I might have a different opinion about re-blued guns (chet15)

Chad I understand your point, I had a friend who was a coin collector
and he was brutal when it came to grading a coin!!!
Terry

 

[Tucsonite]

Coins and Guns are Apples and Zucchini's in my opinion. just like cars and Guns or Stamps or Pez dispensers or any other collectible.

Ruger Collectors are a strange breed :wink: We love factory seconds and oddities that most other Firearm Collectors of other manufacturers would run from. We value consecutive pairs to a higher degree, where unless the guns shipped together as a pair are ignored by other collectors.
Restored guns are Taboo to Ruger Collectors? I don't think so and I am sure there are many guns refinished in the 70's or 80's by the Old Gaurd that pass for original in collections today.
The parts swapping and Rare :shock: variations that became rare because of it is almost laughable. Like How many type I 44 flattops or XR3 Red 44 flattops have been made with a screwdriver?
The important thing is Collect what you like, Spend what feels good to you and if you are going to retire on your gun collection GOOD LUCK :roll:
Honesty and Morals in a collector is Key in all collectibles, Just ask R.L. Wilson

rant over

Dan

 

[Robb Barnes]

Dan I like your perspective. Like I mentioned, I buy a Ruger because I like the model, the condition (either good or an orphan beater) and grins and giggles. While not a collector my anymeans I have always tried to be honest and forthcoming in anything I have sold. That has not always been the case in guns I've boughten but if I didn't want them, I wouldn't have pulled the trigger.

You comment about the huge impact a simple screwdriver can have makes me chuckle. When I mentioned that I am customizing a Type 1 transition model to 44 Special a couple of folks expressed an interest in the original barrel. Not that members would try to build something and foist it off but the value of decent kind of unique parts to let someone build their own personal version of a special gun is often high. The gun in question is a perfect example. It is become a clone to John Taffins SS Skeeter gun right down to the TLA parts I purchased for the project but there is no way on earth I would ever try to sell it as THE SS gun, even if the original could no longer be found. I just want to make my own personal tribute gun to keep for myself.

Thanks guys for letting rogue irreverent Ruger owner comment,

Robb

 

[SteveRuger]

One point that has not been touched on much is: IMHO is get the books & STUDY, it is buyer beware! I know a guy that is trying to put a nice group of Ruger hand guns together. This last weekend there was a Gun Show which I went to & there for once was not a bad amount of Rugers for sell & being on displayed also. There was a Hawkeye there for sale & this person wanted it & asked me to look it over & give him my thoughts after he purchased it. He was very happy to get it. It was a nice Hawkeye but the top strap was drilled & tapped & he did not even know that was not correct. He paid more than he should have. Most of us have been there done that I know. J/S