Quite off thread but one of my chemistry professors in college specialized in polymer research. The guy sitting next to me and I quickly figured out if we wanted a day off from what he was teaching, one of us would ask about his polymer research and off he went. No more studying for that day.
Why are all of Ruger's 9mms Polymer Frames Now?
- Thread starter Tarheel
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bczrx
Single-Sixer
Tam 212 said:
Don't forget Sig Sauer: most of the P22x series are aluminum framed.
Donaldjr1969 said:
Disclaimer: Not all of this post is directed at you, nor is it meant to be purely argumentative (that was just a happy side-effect), but rather intended to be informative.
Depending on what steel you're talking about, and what type/amount of carbon reinforcement you're talking about, this can be WILDLY incorrect.
Shear strength of carbon reinforced plastics is much lower than steel.
The tensile strength (in the direction of the fiber) of unidirectional carbon is significantly higher than steel, while the transverse strength will be much lower. The tensile strength of a quasi-isotropic laminate will be almost identical to a high carbon steel, and weight/strength will increase over that of steel.
For anyone wondering, this can be verified using matweb.com. It is a real-world database of properties of most structural materials.
Polymers and reinforced polymers are great. I love them, but they aren't ideal for everything. High impact-force density and high compressive stress areas will be better suited by metal in almost every case, while areas exposed to tension in a predictable direction are better suited by grained polymers and reinforced polymers.
As far as Young's modulus goes...
7075-T651 Aluminum: 10,400 ksi
General High-Carbon Steel: 2,000 - 34,100 ksi (depends on exact alloy and treatments)
Carbon-fiber reinforced acetal: 2,250 ksi
Carbon-fiber reinforced ABS: 3,400 ksi
Impact grade ABS: 203 - 406 ksi
Not all of those seem too terribly similar to me. :/
But, plenty of other very important properties are left out by these... many have been mentioned and over-generalized earlier in the thread. Impact strength, fatigue life, proper design with the selected materials, manufacturing defect allowance and tolerances, directional strength and so on and so forth.
That being said, I like polymer guns, and I like aluminum guns, wood guns, steel guns, and pretty much anything that shoots bullets. Nothing wrong with polymers imo, aluminum has it's purposes (and can have an incomprehensibly high fatigue life if properly designed, so saying steel's set fatigue strength is better is kind of a moot point), and steel... well, it's steel. Built our nation outta the stuff, it's a pretty nifty, extremely versatile and varied product.
Polymer is cheap, and as far as using it for the frame of a gun, plenty enough reliable for me and anyone else planning on less than 5 or 6 million +p rounds in the lifetime of the frame.
Donaldjr1969
Blackhawk
I was using a best-case scenario of a carbon fiber-epoxy matrix with a ratio of 70/30. It's Young's Modulus (lw) is 26,300ksi. Close to some steels. Now is that something used in a grip frame? Doubtful. But it merely shows that with proper engineering, it can be done. Of course, when the tensile modulus is measured CW, it is nearly 1/20th of that, or just over 1,500ksi! But depending on the stress and in which direction, the fibre matrix can be shaped into the part to absorb the stressin a perpendicular fashion.axisofoil said:
Yes, Young's Modulus, Shear Modulus, and Flexural Modulus are just a few properties. Depending on the part, impact strength and abrasion resistance are factors. But then, how much money is the company willing to spendon a certain plastic for a part? The biggest thing to mind is the bolt buffer on the Franchi SPAS-12. I know it is a nylon (whether it is 6, 6/6, 6/66, etc I do not know) but nylons, while relatively cheap, do not have the impact resistance that will handle the stress of repeated firings. So a person took it upon himself to produce an aftermarket buffer using a plastic of his choice. Wanting the best, he settled on UHMWPE. Now UHMWPE does not have the high values mentioned for the moduli mentioned above. But its properties make it perfect for such an application. Problem is, UHMWPE is a son of a gun to mold!
Now I am not sure what resin is used on the grip frame of my 22/45. But I seriously doubt I will be breaking that tab off the grip frame that hooks into the receiver anytime soon. So I feel confident of its durability.
Finally, it must be noted that my education in polymers took place 20+ years ago. Sadly, I never finished school and never received my degree. So I am merely going on memory. However, my data comes from manufacturers' websites such as substech dot come and plastic-products dot com.
Gunsby_Blazen
Single-Sixer
polymer,
because i dont want to spend 700-800 dollars on ever pistol i buy
and, have you guys felt how slim that sr9/40 frame is???? (i know a lot of you have)
:!: :?: what you guys really need to complain about is:
Why are pistols only coming with 1 mag now instead of 2 like they used to??????
because i dont want to spend 700-800 dollars on ever pistol i buy
and, have you guys felt how slim that sr9/40 frame is???? (i know a lot of you have)
:!: :?: what you guys really need to complain about is:
Why are pistols only coming with 1 mag now instead of 2 like they used to??????
Tam 212
Single-Sixer
bczrx said:
I learn something new everyday... I thought they were steel framed like the CZ-75 and Beretta 92.
These "classic" SIGs are out of my price range and I haven't looked at them much.
I had the same problem when looking for a new carry 9 last year. There are really no american companies making all metal carry-able sub compact traditional double action pistols. I had to turn to CZ to get a 2075, which is a very nice gun (albeit $600 i would have rather given to Ruger). I was upset that no american companies offer a gun similar to this (except maybe sig or kimber for about $900). After a year with the 2075 I have to admit that the rail wear on this alloy pistol is far worse than the wear on my p95 which i got for $275 brand new. I think the p95 is a great gun and I seriously abuse it all the time by getting it flithy and accidentally dropping it in the water when Im fishing etc...(its gets used way more than any other gun i have) Honestly I prefer polymer to aluminum. And steel to polymer. I trust aluminum the least after this 2075. And my all steel s&w 5906 has all kinds off little shavings missing from the slide and little chunks of metal have come off too. It was like that when I got it. I do not know what the previous owner did to it, but it has not gotten any worse for me and it does not affect performance.
bczrx
Single-Sixer
Tam 212 said:
You can order a 'classic' SIG P6 [for us civilizians it was marketed as a P225] for $320 or so at JG Sales. It IS used and you then have to deal with shipping and a dealer receiving it.
Or you can find used ones in the $500-600 range in different calibers/models.
Heck, CDNNinvestments had NEW P220s for around $650 recently. Of course CDNN won't ship firearms to California, if that matters.
If you are really interested in a used SIG, you should do some research though. There are some things to watch out for if you can see it in person. Sig Forum has a LOT of info. And I believe APEX Technologies [make stuff for M&P pistols, etc] is now hosting a used-sig guide, or was it a sig lubricating guide?
Just some thoughts.
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