Vaq hammer swap?
- Thread starter FHBrumb
- Start date
DGW1949
Hawkeye
It depends.
DGW
DGW
hammie
Single-Sixer
I'm not exceptionally talented with mechanical things, but I've done it successfully several times.
There is a helpful video on ruger's website. If you haven't been there, go to ruger's home page (ruger.com), roll over "news & resources", and then click on "videos" on the drop down menu. Then click on the "tech tips" icon, and then select the single action assembly and disassembly. I've not found the asembly/disassembly to be quite as easy as the guy in the video makes it look, but it is all quite doable.
There is a helpful video on ruger's website. If you haven't been there, go to ruger's home page (ruger.com), roll over "news & resources", and then click on "videos" on the drop down menu. Then click on the "tech tips" icon, and then select the single action assembly and disassembly. I've not found the asembly/disassembly to be quite as easy as the guy in the video makes it look, but it is all quite doable.
hammie
Single-Sixer
@FHBrumb: I've swapped 4 hammers on two new model blackhawks and two mid-frame flat tops with super blackhawk hammers. They all worked fine as "drop-in" parts.
The problem right now is finding the hammers. I've had two super blackhawk hammers on back order from midway since december.
The problem right now is finding the hammers. I've had two super blackhawk hammers on back order from midway since december.
Chuck 100 yd
Hunter
The last time I wanted a Super hammer I called Ruger. That was a couple months ago. I got the hammer in about 5 days.
Worth a try. I have a couple on backorder from Brownells also (just for my parts collection).
Worth a try. I have a couple on backorder from Brownells also (just for my parts collection).
hammie
Single-Sixer
@chuck: Thanks for the suggestion. I just checked with midway and they're now predicting september 2014 as a delivery date for the super blackhawk hammers.
DGW1949
Hawkeye
Like I said before, "it depends".
On post #12 we've learned that the OP does not like "the Bisley hammer". I'm OK with that because I don't like them either....but that alone aint answering the questions which need answered.
Me thinks that we should know the answers these before trying to answer "How hard is it to do?":
Which style of RNV does he have, and which hammer does he want to install?
Will it involve a different hammer-only, or a different hammer Ass'y?
Is it just a hammer install...or is there to be a grip frame change also?
Does he got any experience, as-in..... ever tinkered on small machinery before?
Does he got the right tools?
Does he got's a manual and/or a parts drawing?....you know, something to go by once the revolver becomes just a pile of parts?
Just sayin' that what's easy for one guy may not be so easy for the next, some hammers swap easier than others, and that the difference is in the details......which, as far as I can tell, none of us knows.
DGW
On post #12 we've learned that the OP does not like "the Bisley hammer". I'm OK with that because I don't like them either....but that alone aint answering the questions which need answered.
Me thinks that we should know the answers these before trying to answer "How hard is it to do?":
Which style of RNV does he have, and which hammer does he want to install?
Will it involve a different hammer-only, or a different hammer Ass'y?
Is it just a hammer install...or is there to be a grip frame change also?
Does he got any experience, as-in..... ever tinkered on small machinery before?
Does he got the right tools?
Does he got's a manual and/or a parts drawing?....you know, something to go by once the revolver becomes just a pile of parts?
Just sayin' that what's easy for one guy may not be so easy for the next, some hammers swap easier than others, and that the difference is in the details......which, as far as I can tell, none of us knows.
DGW
JimMarch1
Blackhawk
You can graft a Super hammer into a Blackhawk (either frame size), Vaquero or New Vaquero quite easily. Note that the mid-frame size Blackhawks are basically NewVaqs mechanically speaking but with improved sights.
You can also splice in a Bisley hammer but you have to modify the hammer some. It's not very difficult...basically the rear area of the hammer's "lower circle" area needs to be ground down to follow the profile of the stock (or SuperBlackhawk/Montado) hammer. Any decent grinding wheel will do :) and it's not a high-tolerance area.
The sear fit IS critical and it's usually a drop-in. Be sure and do good basic tests to make sure it's OK post-swap - cock it, dry-fire it, cock it again and wiggle the hammer around to make sure it doesn't slip off the cocked position. Odds are you'll be fine.
Now there's one more thing to check: make sure the transfer bar isn't being "pinched". Flatgate and others believe transfer bar pinch is a factor in premature transfer bar breakage and I for one agree.
Step one: take the cylinder out, put the base pin back in so the action works.
Step two: cock it and dry-fire while holding back the trigger.
Step three: push forward on the hammer with some authority - not "crazy" but give it a shove.
Step four: while pushing forward on the hammer release the trigger.
If the trigger goes forward, you're fine. If it sticks back it is because the transfer bar is being "pinched" between hammer and firing pin and is holding the trigger back.
What you do next to fix it is annoying. Get some small files (PUT DOWN THE DREMEL, GRINDER OR ANY OTHER POWER TOOL!) and gently file on the face of the hammer that hits the transfer bar. Not the top-most area, the face of the "step" below that. This decreases the amount of "whack" being applied to the transfer bar, basically.
You need to test it for pinch a bunch of times as you file. I found it to be nearly a 2hr job on mine while watching TV - the hammer metal is hard as hell. I wrapped a small bit of rag around the base of the hammer as I filed with it cocked (but the gun mostly assembled 'cept for the cylinder) so I could test it between more filing sessions.
You want to stop filing JUST when the pinch ends. And then, if you filed with the gun assembled, you need to now take it completely apart and clear out the ground-up hammer metal before use.
I for one think this is vital if the gun is going to be pressed into defensive service, and useful on any other.
What else...ah. Yeah. There's one other source of hammers - Ron Powers at Power Custom. He can sell you a matched hammer/trigger setup that is a lot like dropping in a high-dollar action job yourself. He sells hammers in regular and Bisley flavors with the Bisley set up to fit in non-Bisley grip frames already.
There's a rumor he also sells some in SBH shape as well...you'd have to call and ask.
The prices are high - $180 or so for the hammer/trigger set. But it may be worth it to you - a gunsmith would charge $125 for the same work level, plus shipping, so the cost is about a wash and you don't have to ship your gun anywhere. Plus it's a drop-in Bisley solution for non-Bisley grip frames.
You can also splice in a Bisley hammer but you have to modify the hammer some. It's not very difficult...basically the rear area of the hammer's "lower circle" area needs to be ground down to follow the profile of the stock (or SuperBlackhawk/Montado) hammer. Any decent grinding wheel will do :) and it's not a high-tolerance area.
The sear fit IS critical and it's usually a drop-in. Be sure and do good basic tests to make sure it's OK post-swap - cock it, dry-fire it, cock it again and wiggle the hammer around to make sure it doesn't slip off the cocked position. Odds are you'll be fine.
Now there's one more thing to check: make sure the transfer bar isn't being "pinched". Flatgate and others believe transfer bar pinch is a factor in premature transfer bar breakage and I for one agree.
Step one: take the cylinder out, put the base pin back in so the action works.
Step two: cock it and dry-fire while holding back the trigger.
Step three: push forward on the hammer with some authority - not "crazy" but give it a shove.
Step four: while pushing forward on the hammer release the trigger.
If the trigger goes forward, you're fine. If it sticks back it is because the transfer bar is being "pinched" between hammer and firing pin and is holding the trigger back.
What you do next to fix it is annoying. Get some small files (PUT DOWN THE DREMEL, GRINDER OR ANY OTHER POWER TOOL!) and gently file on the face of the hammer that hits the transfer bar. Not the top-most area, the face of the "step" below that. This decreases the amount of "whack" being applied to the transfer bar, basically.
You need to test it for pinch a bunch of times as you file. I found it to be nearly a 2hr job on mine while watching TV - the hammer metal is hard as hell. I wrapped a small bit of rag around the base of the hammer as I filed with it cocked (but the gun mostly assembled 'cept for the cylinder) so I could test it between more filing sessions.
You want to stop filing JUST when the pinch ends. And then, if you filed with the gun assembled, you need to now take it completely apart and clear out the ground-up hammer metal before use.
I for one think this is vital if the gun is going to be pressed into defensive service, and useful on any other.
What else...ah. Yeah. There's one other source of hammers - Ron Powers at Power Custom. He can sell you a matched hammer/trigger setup that is a lot like dropping in a high-dollar action job yourself. He sells hammers in regular and Bisley flavors with the Bisley set up to fit in non-Bisley grip frames already.
There's a rumor he also sells some in SBH shape as well...you'd have to call and ask.
The prices are high - $180 or so for the hammer/trigger set. But it may be worth it to you - a gunsmith would charge $125 for the same work level, plus shipping, so the cost is about a wash and you don't have to ship your gun anywhere. Plus it's a drop-in Bisley solution for non-Bisley grip frames.
Hondo44
Hawkeye
FHBrumb said:
Simply put, any Ruger large frame or mid frame hammer will interchange and drop in, (Original Vaqueros are large frame and the NEW Vaquero is a mid size frame.) Which do you have?
As said above, the exception is the Bisley hammer; they also inter-change too, with a little metal removal from the hump as shown:
A few checks after hammer change is wise and standard procedure as outlined well by Jim March. But 95% of the time there are none of these minor issues.
FHBrumb said:
No, not regular production Vaqueros but some limited edition Vaqueros made for exclusive distributors are supplied with Super Blackhawk hammers which are lower and wider than standard hammers and look like this:
The videos suggested above are excellent but will cause you some wasted effort if you just need to change the hammer.
REPLACING JUST HAMMER and/or PAWL:
Recognize, you do not need to hassel with the PESKY GATE SPRING, pull the trigger pin, trigger OR transfer bar JUST to remove the hammer and pawl. Once you remove the grip frame, the hammer pin is the only thing you need to remove to get them out. Just pull the hammer back and all the way down, then depress the hammer plunger in the base of the hammer with a small tipped screwdriver to clear the trigger extension where the transfer bar connects to it. Let the hammer & pawl fall out. Install in reverse! Piece o’ cake.
NOTE: When you pull the grip frame, examine the upper end of the two trigger guard screw holes where they are exposed. Almost always there will be a huge flat 'roll-over’ burr in each hole from the milling cuts that expose the holes. If they are present they generally cause the 1st 1/8" of removing those two screws to take extra effort to unscrew. You'll need to break them off and pick them out with a dental pick or equivalent tool.
Hondo44
Hawkeye
That is the standard New Vaquero hammer, it has the extra long spur:
http://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/trigger-group-parts/hammers/hammer-only-prod44182.aspx
The super Blackhawk hammer shown above on my Blackhawk is #780-000-535WB. $23.96:
http://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/trigger-group-parts/hammers/hammer-assembly-ss-sku780000535-44411-28153.aspx?sku=780000535
It's currently out of stock, but just click Backorder and they will ship it as soon as they get it and not charge your card until shipped. These are in high demand.
You can also order from Ruger for $29 but they will not place a back order for you, you just have to keep calling.
Recognize your Bisley hammer is also in high demand and would fetch a good price on the forum, especially if it's a blue one (no longer made).
You'll find someone on this forum to trade you a SBH hammer for your Bisley hammer.
The SBH is a drop in for your gun, but just so that you're aware: remember the photo of the Bisley hammer in my post above that shows the 'hump' that must be removed to fit the standard plow-handle grip frame? Well the Super hammer does not have that hump and therefore will not fill the long slot in the top of the Bisley grip frame. But it's a cosmetic issue only, it will function fine!
http://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/trigger-group-parts/hammers/hammer-only-prod44182.aspx
The super Blackhawk hammer shown above on my Blackhawk is #780-000-535WB. $23.96:
http://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/trigger-group-parts/hammers/hammer-assembly-ss-sku780000535-44411-28153.aspx?sku=780000535
It's currently out of stock, but just click Backorder and they will ship it as soon as they get it and not charge your card until shipped. These are in high demand.
You can also order from Ruger for $29 but they will not place a back order for you, you just have to keep calling.
Recognize your Bisley hammer is also in high demand and would fetch a good price on the forum, especially if it's a blue one (no longer made).
You'll find someone on this forum to trade you a SBH hammer for your Bisley hammer.
The SBH is a drop in for your gun, but just so that you're aware: remember the photo of the Bisley hammer in my post above that shows the 'hump' that must be removed to fit the standard plow-handle grip frame? Well the Super hammer does not have that hump and therefore will not fill the long slot in the top of the Bisley grip frame. But it's a cosmetic issue only, it will function fine!
Hondo44
Hawkeye
Yes it will, and will also leave the long slot open.
You can see here that the SBH hammer is almost the same low profile as the Bisley:
The New Vaq hammer is not shown but it's longer and higher than the three shown.
The third one labeled 'stock' is the standard Old Vaq and the Blackhawk hammer and the most common.
You can see here that the SBH hammer is almost the same low profile as the Bisley:
The New Vaq hammer is not shown but it's longer and higher than the three shown.
The third one labeled 'stock' is the standard Old Vaq and the Blackhawk hammer and the most common.
(I mis-posted this in another thread (but it worked for somebody anyway)...was meant for here:)
There is another option some choose, though clearly not the OP...actually the reverse... putting the standard (stock) Vaquero/Blackhawk hammer in the New Vaquero. Like a lot of folks who have converted their NVs, I am not a devotee of the longhorn NV hammer, and so I equipped two of my three NVs with SBH hammers (a fourth, a Mantado, already came with a SBH profile hammer. The one unconverted regular NV is undecided/may yet be on the for sale list). I like the SBHs a lot functionally but one of the now converted NVs I've (almost) decided I want the more traditional "western/cowboy" looking hammer without going back to the overly (to me) long/high/backswept NV spur,...and have thought of reverting to the Vaquero/BH shorter spur as a decent compromise--and use the SBH on future project. This is an approach a lot have taken who can't abide the more extreme backsweep of the stock NV, but also don't want--or can't find--either the SBH or Bisley piece.
To me and a lot of others I've heard, the perfect hammer is the Colt SAA, which none of the Rugers seem to match exactly. One of those puzzlements. While Ruger was at it in 1956--and then over the next six decades--while emulating the SAA in most other ways (on the surface), why didn't they just adopt the Colt hammer?!
There is another option some choose, though clearly not the OP...actually the reverse... putting the standard (stock) Vaquero/Blackhawk hammer in the New Vaquero. Like a lot of folks who have converted their NVs, I am not a devotee of the longhorn NV hammer, and so I equipped two of my three NVs with SBH hammers (a fourth, a Mantado, already came with a SBH profile hammer. The one unconverted regular NV is undecided/may yet be on the for sale list). I like the SBHs a lot functionally but one of the now converted NVs I've (almost) decided I want the more traditional "western/cowboy" looking hammer without going back to the overly (to me) long/high/backswept NV spur,...and have thought of reverting to the Vaquero/BH shorter spur as a decent compromise--and use the SBH on future project. This is an approach a lot have taken who can't abide the more extreme backsweep of the stock NV, but also don't want--or can't find--either the SBH or Bisley piece.
To me and a lot of others I've heard, the perfect hammer is the Colt SAA, which none of the Rugers seem to match exactly. One of those puzzlements. While Ruger was at it in 1956--and then over the next six decades--while emulating the SAA in most other ways (on the surface), why didn't they just adopt the Colt hammer?!
JimMarch1
Blackhawk
A few years back at a gun show in rural northern Arizona I got a chance to fondle a variety of classic SA wheelguns and compare them to my NewVaq which was (and still is) wearing an SBH hammer.
When I cock a single action I do so strong-side-thumb, when shooting one-handed or two. I want to put the tip of the hammer right into the joint in my thumb, dead smack on. That way I can fold my thumb over the hammer and push it down from above, rather than dragging the hammer down from below with friction on the middle area of my thumb-pad. I do not consider the latter a reliable method of cocking. On my gun the SBH hammer put the tip of the hammer exactly where I need it, on the joint, while doing my preferred pinkie-under hold.
A pair of post-WW2 Colt SAAs put the hammer's tip too high - up on the pad of my thumb. Two Uberties and a Pietta, same deal...as did my New Vaquero in stock form of course.
A bone-stock USFA Rodeo put it in the right place - at the joint. As did all three pre-WW2 Colt SAAs available for testing, including one with a black powder frame (pre-1895).
From this limited testing it appears to me that Uberti, Pietta and Ruger are cloning the hammer reach feel of the post-WW2 Colts. USFA cloned the pre-war feel. And then you graft an SBH hammer onto a NewVaq or other mid-frame Ruger, you get the pre-war feel as well. The result may not "look period correct" but in terms of functionality it is (surprisingly!) the SBH hammer that allows you to use shooting techniques correct to the Old West period including "thumb fully over hammer" as endorsed in writing by Bat Masterson, a former buffalo poacher (and criminal at Adobe Walls) who used to have in his employ while police chief in Dodge City Kansas one Wyatt Earp.
When I cock a single action I do so strong-side-thumb, when shooting one-handed or two. I want to put the tip of the hammer right into the joint in my thumb, dead smack on. That way I can fold my thumb over the hammer and push it down from above, rather than dragging the hammer down from below with friction on the middle area of my thumb-pad. I do not consider the latter a reliable method of cocking. On my gun the SBH hammer put the tip of the hammer exactly where I need it, on the joint, while doing my preferred pinkie-under hold.
A pair of post-WW2 Colt SAAs put the hammer's tip too high - up on the pad of my thumb. Two Uberties and a Pietta, same deal...as did my New Vaquero in stock form of course.
A bone-stock USFA Rodeo put it in the right place - at the joint. As did all three pre-WW2 Colt SAAs available for testing, including one with a black powder frame (pre-1895).
From this limited testing it appears to me that Uberti, Pietta and Ruger are cloning the hammer reach feel of the post-WW2 Colts. USFA cloned the pre-war feel. And then you graft an SBH hammer onto a NewVaq or other mid-frame Ruger, you get the pre-war feel as well. The result may not "look period correct" but in terms of functionality it is (surprisingly!) the SBH hammer that allows you to use shooting techniques correct to the Old West period including "thumb fully over hammer" as endorsed in writing by Bat Masterson, a former buffalo poacher (and criminal at Adobe Walls) who used to have in his employ while police chief in Dodge City Kansas one Wyatt Earp.
JimMarch1 said:
You speak the truth. That said, the post war Colts--or at least my ca 2008 example and most 2nd Gens I've sampled--appear to me a lot better and more natural than the NV or V/BH hammers in overall feel, and oh so much better in reach than the NV. Although there are slight differences, I move between my Colt, USFA and Cimarron (Uberti) pretty seamlessly. Obvious grip and weight differences aside, blindfolded, can always tell when a Ruger--any Ruger--is in hand.
Hondo44
Hawkeye
Tx gunrunner, who also prefers the SBH height, makes it look traditional.
SBH hammer wide spur thinned on the right and bottom:
SBH hammer wide spur thinned on the right and bottom:
JimMarch1
Blackhawk
I had to do that on the left side of my SBH hammer so it wouldn't scrape my magazines on cocking.
Hondo44
Hawkeye
JimMarch1 said:
We obviously know who Bat Masterson was and opinions are free speech. But we all clearly recognize that you're "trolling" on FHBrumb's thread, just because you want to advertise your bias against Masterson with your misinformed name calling. It's clear to everyone else that an animal with no hunting season or regulations pertaining to it is impossible to be poached.
Definition of a troll: "In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
Back to thread business, you need a bit more familiarity of Colt 1st, 2nd and 3rd gen, and USFA hammer heights to improve your perceptions. Because they are all the same albeit with the usual slight variances always associated with parts that are final hand finished/knurled by 100s of different employees over a span of 141 years. I have the hammer tracings of dozens of Colt's and/or USFA's hammers of all generations to prove it.
Hondo44
Hawkeye
JimMarch1 said:
Still more trolling, I see.
JimMarch1
Blackhawk
I'm not trolling. I think Masterson absolutely knew how to shoot. But he had...issues, and not just poaching deep in treatied reservation territory although that was absolutely what was going on at Adobe Walls. Billy Dixon didn't shoot a "savage" off a horse, he shot a friggin' game warden!
Once in his retirement in a big city back east Bat's idea of earning extra cash on the side was to go to pawn shops, buy up the crappiest stuff he could lay hands on from the "old west period" and sell it soon after as "a genuine old west artifact owned by none other than Bat Masterson!!!"
He was...a character.
As to the measurements I took of the guns I had access to that day: I am pretty good at obtaining the same hold on each of the very similar guns involved. I checked alignment between the topstrap and my forearm bones from above to make sure I was at the same place. I stand by my observations.
Once in his retirement in a big city back east Bat's idea of earning extra cash on the side was to go to pawn shops, buy up the crappiest stuff he could lay hands on from the "old west period" and sell it soon after as "a genuine old west artifact owned by none other than Bat Masterson!!!"
He was...a character.
As to the measurements I took of the guns I had access to that day: I am pretty good at obtaining the same hold on each of the very similar guns involved. I checked alignment between the topstrap and my forearm bones from above to make sure I was at the same place. I stand by my observations.
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