Trigger return Spring on BH

[Bountyhunter]

I am trying to put a brass grip frame on my BH that had a Bisley grip frame. I have the trigger return spring from the Bisley on the brass grip frame, but the gun isn't working as it should be. It does not cock right. It will, but is real hard. The gate will not open either. i checked and the detent spring is sitting right. The hammer and trigger came off a 32 BH. Any ideas what is wrong? I can't see anything out of place. I'm wondering if the hammer and trigger just aren't going to work, or if the trigger return spring is not the right set up?

 

[contender]

By chance,, is your brass gripframe a factory one?
If so,, it's an OM design,,,!
Just wondering,,!

 

[cas6969]

Wait a sec…. you a single six hammer/trigger in a full size blackhawk?

 

[Bountyhunter]

It's an aftermarket grip frame.

I was told that the 32 BH was a full size BH. I have never owned one so know only what I was told. Is the 32 a Single Six? If that's the case then the hammer is the problem, correct?

 

[rugerguy]

yep, the 32 Single Six hammer is definitely "shorter"...............

 

[RonEgg]

It is a Buckeye 32.

 

[Bountyhunter]

I think I may have it figured out, Ron. The cylinder latch plunger hole is not deep enough I believe. That's what's causing it to lock up on me.

 

[Robb Barnes]

I had trouble getting a blackhawk NM to go back together a week or so ago and I found that a small piece of the bolt plunger had broken off and when I tried to cycle it it would not drop the bolt. After several assemblings and tear downs I finally got smart and took a small pick and reached in there and out if popped. Problem solved as soon as a new plunger was installed after the broken scrap was removed.

 

[Bountyhunter]

I'm guessing one of the plungers is not working right. It will cycle fine and then lock up. I open the gate and spin the cylinder and it'll work fine again. Maybe twice, maybe 12 times, and then lock up again. When it locks up I can't get the hammer back more than half way. It's driving me nuts. I'm going to have to tear it down again and inspect each plunger.

 

[Hondo44]

I'm guessing one of the plungers is not working right. It will cycle fine and then lock up. I open the gate and spin the cylinder and it'll work fine again. Maybe twice, maybe 12 times, and then lock up again. When it locks up I can't get the hammer back more than half way. It's driving me nuts. I'm going to have to tear it down again and inspect each plunger.

Bingo, hammer plunger pins come in different lengths. Use the hammer plunger that is in the Bisley hammer. Or if you like the Bisley hammer, just grind down the back to fit the brass grip frame.

 

[Bountyhunter]

Bisley hammer is gone with the spring.

This is where I'm at with it now. The gun is together and running 100% until I install the cylinder. It seems that the cylinder latch is popping back up before the pawl moves the cylinder enough to get the catch out of the way. Could this be because of the hammer plunger? If it is what part # do I need. Is it just a standard BH hammer plunger? I order everything thru Midway, and will look there.

 

[Hondo44]

If the gun was originally a Bisley model, get the plunger for it. Also get one for the standard Blackhawk hammer.

 

[Hondo44]

It's an aftermarket grip frame.

I was told that the 32 BH was a full size BH. I have never owned one so know only what I was told. Is the 32 a Single Six? If that's the case then the hammer is the problem, correct?

Did you determine which 32 hammer that you have, the 32 BH or 32 Single Six? Ruger made both.

 

[Bountyhunter]

It's the BH hammer and the plunger in it is the stock one. But it doesn't work. So I need a different one. Would a stock Vaquero hammer and spring work?

 

[Hondo44]

It's the BH hammer and the plunger in it is the stock one. But it doesn't work. So I need a different one. Would a stock Vaquero hammer and spring work?

Yes the Vaq hammer and spring will work. A New Vaq hammer spring will be lighter tension.

I have never swapped hammers that didn't just drop in and work right, and I've swapped dozens even a super BH into a 22 single six. There's something else wrong. see if the cyl bolt has been modified on the tip that contacts the hammer plunger. Or try a new one.

 

[Bountyhunter]

The cylinder bolt is the part that pops up and locks up the cylinder, correct? It is the same one I used before the grip frame swap. The only things I've changed on the gun are grip frame, hammer and trigger. The gun worked perfect before the swap, so it has to be one of those three things that is not right.

 

[Hondo44]

But you no longer have the original grip frame, hammer and trigger right? Becuase the 1st thing I would do is put it all back on and see if it still works. I suspect the new grip frame, did you ever see it on a gun working properly?

 

[Bountyhunter]

I do not have the original grip frame, hammer or trigger. I traded it for this stuff. The grip frame I got is brass and was never fitted to anything. I don't know what on the grip frame could cause this. This is frustrating.

 

[Hondo44]

I do not have the original grip frame, hammer or trigger. I traded it for this stuff. The grip frame I got is brass and was never fitted to anything. I don't know what on the grip frame could cause this. This is frustrating.

Yes I agree, very frustrating, but I've been there done that. I believe it could be the grip frame and here's why:
I have worked on dozens of Ruger single actions which doesn't make me an expert by any means of course. But it has allowed me to accidently discover some quirks about them.

If you take one apart, put it back together with it's original parts and try to test the action with any of the screws loose like the grip frame screws, the hammer will not cock properly. It will feel like it's locked up. It has something to do with the geometry of the hammer spring strut.

So what does that have to do with your problem? I know there are less than quality repro brass frames available. It could be that even though you may have tightened it up with the screws, the dimensions are slighty off and it's not able to get close enough or too close to the main frame for the hammer strut geometry to be exactly right.
If I were you, I would borrow a Ruger factory grip frame to assemble on your gun to eliminate that possibility. Afterall, it was traded off for some reason and it may be the problem you're having. Do you have another Ruger SA, even a single six grip frame will interchange with a BH grip frame, or a friend's Ruger you could borrow from?

If the gun works properly with a Ruger grip frame, you could compare grip frame dimensions to the brass one and possibly modify the "ears" around the hammer. But likely the screw holes in the trigger guard will then be off and require slight elongation to line up with the main frame threaded holes. I wish we were closer, I'd love to grapple with this dilema.

 

[Bountyhunter]

I have a Vaquero that I am going to pull apart and try. I also was told that by filing a tiny, tiny bit off the lower pawl tooth the timing could be adjusted. I'm thinking since it seems to be a timing issue, that it may the right thing to do. With gun working with the cylinder out and the cylinder latch lowering and then popping back up before the cylinder turns, it may be the fix I've been looking for. I'll try this first, and then tear down the Vaquero and try the grip frame from it.

I appreciate all the help, Hondo.

 

[Bountyhunter]

Well I just realized that the gun will not bind up if I put a little pressure on the trigger at the start of the cocking action. It will cock just fine a few times and then bind. Once it does, all I have to do is simply put a bit of pressure on the trigger and cock it. It works just fine then. It will work 100% of the time if I do it this way. Is the trigger return spring forcing the trigger too far forward?

 

[Hondo44]

Is the trigger return spring forcing the trigger too far forward?

That's an interesting development. No, the spring can not force the trigger farther forward than it is mechanically able to go. The forward position of the trigger when at rest is based on the upper trigger and transfer bar contact with other parts. The only way it could be farther forward is if metal was removed from one of those parts.

The pawl and the cylinder are original to the gun and were in proper time before. So I would not touch the pawl. We should look at the new parts introduced such as the transfer bar, hammer & plunger and the trigger. I would do two things:
Assemble the gun without the transfer bar and see if it works.
Or I would compare the new parts to your Vaquero parts to see if any appear to have been modified. If not, I would substitute one part at a time from your Vaq parts and see if the gun works with one of them. Mark the Vaq parts with a felt pen so they don't get mixed up.

 

[Bountyhunter]

I did end up pulling the Vaquero apart and comparing parts. They appeared to be exactly the same. I used the Vaquero grip frame and the Buckeye trigger and hammer and still it would not work. I ended up using the trigger, hammer, pawl, and transfer bar from my Vaquero. It works perfectly now. The Vaquero is in pieces and will not work with the brass grip frame. I've given up on the grip frame. I am going to get another BH grip frame for Vaquero and the brassy is being shipped out tomorrow to be someone else's headache. I ran out of patience.

I'll be back in a few days asking why the Vaquero won't work. :lol:

 

[Hondo44]

I did end up pulling the Vaquero apart and comparing parts. They appeared to be exactly the same. I used the Vaquero grip frame and the Buckeye trigger and hammer and still it would not work. I ended up using the trigger, hammer, pawl, and transfer bar from my Vaquero. It works perfectly now. The Vaquero is in pieces and will not work with the brass grip frame. I've given up on the grip frame. I am going to get another BH grip frame for Vaquero and the brassy is being shipped out tomorrow to be someone else's headache. I ran out of patience.

I'll be back in a few days asking why the Vaquero won't work. :lol:

I was afraid the brassy was the culprit all along. I was going to offer to have you send it to me for evaluation but that's OK, it'll be out of your hair now for good. Sorry for all the frustration you had.

Check the classifieds and post a want ad. You'll be better off finding a used grip frame that's already been fitted to a gun, it'll save a lot of work over fitting a new one to your frame and if it's a blue gun, the new ones come in the 'white' and must be blued after fitting. I would recommend a steel grip frame for best balance and its recoil absorbing weight.

Steel grip frames from the short barrel Super BH or original Vaq will be the original size for your gun. The new model blue steel grip frame will be marked XR-3.

If you want a stainless GF for the contrast similar to a brassy, look for those marked
KXR-3, KXR-3 with a separate N, K (in circle) XRN-3.

If you give me your serial number I'll look up its manufacturig date and can tell you which of the above will have the 'ears' around the hammer most likely to match your main frame for best fit.

If you want an alloy GF like the gun came with oiginally, they are marked:
Early = NXR3-RED, Late = XRN-3RED.

 

[Bountyhunter]

Lots of info in that post!

I have a line on a new stainless grip frame for it. Probably trade the brassy for it. I'm not in a hurry to put the Vaquero together. I'm hoping to hunt with the BH next month though.

I appreciate all the help, Hondo! :mrgreen:

 

[Hondo44]

I just realized something from the photos on the other site...your gun actually is a Bisley. I was thinking it was just a BH with Bisley grip frame. Here's the reason I mention it, the ears on the Bisley grip frames are taller than on the old plow handle grip frames.

That's why the brassy ears are too short because the Bisley mainframe is taller at that point. However, about 5 years ago Ruger made all the main frames like the Bisleys to simplify production. They made the plow handle ears taller to match the frames. Therefore to find a grip frame to fit your Bisley main frame you want a grip frame made in the last 5 years or so.

This includes the Super BH Dragoon grip. If you liked the feel of the brassy you'll love the SBH. But it must come from a SBH with the 7 1/2" barrel or longer to get the dragoon grip.

 

[Bountyhunter]

Good to know, Hondo. I'll keep that in mind.

So for the record, are you saying that the shorter ears will not work? Or just won't line up?

 

[Hondo44]

Good to know, Hondo. I'll keep that in mind.

So for the record, are you saying that the shorter ears will not work? Or just won't line up?

The grip frame will work perfectly with short ears. But if you want to match fit the main frame to to the GF you have some work ahead to do plus bluing touch up. And a Bisley GF will no longer fit. If you start with a GF with long ears you'll have little to no fitting to do.

 

[Bountyhunter]

You know what really sucks? I had the grip frame fro a few days before i got the internals and fitted the Bisley to the grip frame. Fortunately the the Vaquero grip frame fits just fine anyway.

 

[Hondo44]

Cool, it must be the same relative vintage. You can measure the ear height of your grip frame and request the measurement for any potential acquisition before closing the deal so there are no surprises when you get it.