The gunslinger effect
- Thread starter Danjet500
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The theory is flawed. It doesn’t take into account training and muscle memory.
I'd rather see a study that didn't. I don't practice enough to have true "muscle memory" for a draw, and I'm betting the standard wackjob I might confront doesn't either. More likely they might already have their weapon of choice at the ready. My one, and hopefully only, draw was from open carry and when my best new friend made a move that "provoked" me into a response. Being someone who doesn't practice that, I can tell you doing it as a reflex was way smoother than I would have thought and certainly, I think, better than if I'd "tried" to draw (i.e. Barney Fifed it).
None of it takes into account drawing from various n sundry concealed locations either.
Raylan was tough on Gun Thugs.
Some of us might need to be more like Han Solo.
I've seen Solo T shirts that say "damn right I shot first". Space Pirate.
I'm prejudiced in that I believe in muscle memory which actually in effect might be what the guy was talking about.... once our brain kicks in to draw and fire then it just happens. The reason for my thinking is I've got over 150 hours of formal instructor training in just drawing, firing and hitting your target.
I fully intend to have my gun in my hand if/when I need it. Needing to perform a 'quick draw' means my observation skills failed.
I've mentioned before about being used as a lab rat for a long time by the U of M's exercise physiology department.
Been part of a few long term studies and a bunch of oddball stuff. One of them about 15 years ago was looking at pretty much what the above link was about. Involved placing one hand on a contact that tripped a timer when your hand came off and basically a short jump over and up to hit a stop button. They recorded the time if you just went when you were ready, another when a light blinked and another from a beep like a shot timer. Did it in both directions and averaged the results of about ten attempts each way. It seemed odd and still does but I was a few thousandths of a second quicker in the movement segment when reacting to a light flash or beep then going at will. Initial reaction was slower by about .1 second to the beep vs. the light flash. Learning the move from many repetitions made me quicker across all three about equally in the movement portion but had no measurable effect on the reaction times. Eventual fatigue slowed them all down some. I was consistently faster going to my left, probably due to more right side strength. They looked at both reaction time to hand coming off the start switch and movement time till hitting the stop switch
Based on my own times I can see some validity in the study linked above but would still vote for practice and muscle memory in the real world, particularly because of the skills needed for a clean draw.
Been part of a few long term studies and a bunch of oddball stuff. One of them about 15 years ago was looking at pretty much what the above link was about. Involved placing one hand on a contact that tripped a timer when your hand came off and basically a short jump over and up to hit a stop button. They recorded the time if you just went when you were ready, another when a light blinked and another from a beep like a shot timer. Did it in both directions and averaged the results of about ten attempts each way. It seemed odd and still does but I was a few thousandths of a second quicker in the movement segment when reacting to a light flash or beep then going at will. Initial reaction was slower by about .1 second to the beep vs. the light flash. Learning the move from many repetitions made me quicker across all three about equally in the movement portion but had no measurable effect on the reaction times. Eventual fatigue slowed them all down some. I was consistently faster going to my left, probably due to more right side strength. They looked at both reaction time to hand coming off the start switch and movement time till hitting the stop switch
Based on my own times I can see some validity in the study linked above but would still vote for practice and muscle memory in the real world, particularly because of the skills needed for a clean draw.
Can't really argue with that thought. But, I'd just add that, in a lot of instances, "real world" conditions are not conducive to matching up with practice. Still, we all should be as familiar with a carry weapon and, to the extent possible, potential deployment impediments. Otherwise, if you find yourself in the position, some of it boils down to just plain luck, and, hopefully, that will be on your side.
Just be prepared to be charged with agg assault with a firearm and improper display of a weapon, regardless what your side of the story is.
Have a criminal atty and bondsman lined up, and a cash stash to pay those persons when needed.
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You all realize its not a study its a theory. Also it’s not really about gunfights right?
This is like discussing Schrodingers cat on a pet forum.
This is like discussing Schrodingers cat on a pet forum.
I bet that happens too!
There's far to many variables' to measure/ account for during a gun battle. Waiting for the bad guy to draw first is a false bet on your life. Action is always faster than reaction. Distractions of any kind slow reaction even more. Some people are always faster than others be it age, physical size, how that person processes thought to action. If each was equal and one drunk and one sober. Sober will win.
In police advanced level firearms training I used a shot clock that when it beeped the person was to draw and shoot one or more rounds hitting the X ring. These shooters all had several years under their belts and the slow ones are always slower than the fast ones. After years, I knew about where the persons speed would be at based on their past. Most peaked out at a point and trying to get them to shoot faster meant loss of accuracy. Than consider this, we cannot just train cops on fast draw and shoot. They must be smooth, fast and still decide to shoot or not shoot. That was just as important. That's another subject. But really goes along with drawing and shooting.
No training or no skills learned through draw, fire and hit the target puts that person at a big disadvantage over someone who has put the time into proper training.
I am not a western buff at all, but as an example: my mind just does not work in thinking a lawman knowing someone is wanted for murder and would be willing to bet his life on standing in the street and wait for that murderer to draw first. On the big screen it looks cool and shows the lawman is fair, maybe cocky and macho. To me it is a bad tactical move.
In police advanced level firearms training I used a shot clock that when it beeped the person was to draw and shoot one or more rounds hitting the X ring. These shooters all had several years under their belts and the slow ones are always slower than the fast ones. After years, I knew about where the persons speed would be at based on their past. Most peaked out at a point and trying to get them to shoot faster meant loss of accuracy. Than consider this, we cannot just train cops on fast draw and shoot. They must be smooth, fast and still decide to shoot or not shoot. That was just as important. That's another subject. But really goes along with drawing and shooting.
No training or no skills learned through draw, fire and hit the target puts that person at a big disadvantage over someone who has put the time into proper training.
I am not a western buff at all, but as an example: my mind just does not work in thinking a lawman knowing someone is wanted for murder and would be willing to bet his life on standing in the street and wait for that murderer to draw first. On the big screen it looks cool and shows the lawman is fair, maybe cocky and macho. To me it is a bad tactical move.
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contender
Ruger Guru
Thanks to a slow computer, I wasn't able to get the link opened easily.
But,, I can add to a bit of the discussion by the members here. I'm a firearms instructor, and a USPSA competitor & Range officer.
The comment;
"The theory is flawed. It doesn't take into account training and muscle memory."
Training, as discussed above is an excellent way to develop skills that may allow a person to be faster, smoother, & more likely to be the first one to draw a firearm.
But I always talk about "motor memory skill" which is mistakenly called "muscle memory."
Muscles do not react w/o the brain telling them what to do.
Motor memory skills are a conditioned learned action or reaction by the brain. Just like doing anything daily or often enough in repetition to where the brain develops a response without the conscious thought to do so.
Just like driving a vehicle.
Do it often enough & you do not independently think about all the little steps you take to drive a vehicle. Things like; Unlocking the door, opening the door, sitting down, putting your foot on the brake, inserting the key, turning the key, placing you hand on the steering wheel, putting the vehicle in gear, turning the wheel in the direction needed, moving your foot from the brake to the gas & back when needed, turning the wheel to direct the vehicle, and when confronted with a sudden, unexpected action in front of you, hitting the brake and/or turning the steering wheel away from it.
None of us are born with motor memory skills to do anything,, but we learn them by repetition. The brain can tell us what to do quicker than we can consciously think about each & every step.
In shooting, by practicing a draw, stance, sight acquisition, grip, trigger control, recoil management & follow through, we can become faster & faster the more we practice these skills by training our brain to accept the motor memory necessary to do these things.
Just like Dave P.'s comments about his participation in the studies.
But it's not muscle memory, it's motor memory skills.
Blume357 has mentioned his many hours of training. Excellent. And yet,, he can attest to how fast I am vs his own skills, as he's videoed it. And I'm NOT a super fast shooter. Blume's skills are very good. But I have over 20 years of shooting practice by being a USPSA competitor.
In that game, you will spend a lot of time doing all the skills necessary to be a faster AND more accurate shooter.
RRM is right about the average whack job not being that fast or good either,, but will most likely already have their gun in a "ready" condition.
But there have been a few cases of where known competitors who do have good motor memory skills were confronted by a thug, and they came out on top, quickly.
And IDPA competition has CCW draws, so that skill can be easily practiced as well.
"in a lot of instances, "real world" conditions are not conducive to matching up with practice."
This comment,, I can say is both true & false. Many real world conditions can easily be duplicated in practice. In USPSA,, we are challenged at every match with different scenarios that require a draw, accurate shooting, movement, reloading, deciding which actions to take when, & overall, a mental challenge as well as physical ones. ALL of this takes place "on the clock" which places a certain amount of stress factor upon your skills. This alone is an excellent skill to develop better motor memory.
But there is no way to totally practice every possible scenario that might take place in the real world. That's why practicing a competition game such as USPSA or IDPA can be a big help in developing motor memory skills that might save your life.
"I fully intend to have my gun in my hand if/when I need it. Needing to perform a 'quick draw' means my observation skills failed."
This quote, has a lot of truth in it. Observation skills are a MUST to be able to be as prepared as possible. As noted by KIR, "Lesson #6."
My Karate Master taught us our best weapon was our legs,, run like hell.
By being observant,, we can avoid MANY, MANY situations where things might go bad.
And;
"Just be prepared to be charged with agg assault with a firearm and improper display of a weapon, regardless what your side of the story is.
Have a criminal atty and bondsman lined up, and a cash stash to pay those persons when needed."
I can personally disagree with that statement.
I've had the occasion to be in a position where I had my firearm out, in a non-threatening manner, and the police were called. And the guy who prompted this action was the one who called the police. He did so as I extracted my wife & myself from his vicinity, and moved well away from everything.
When the police arrived, they were calm, not overly concerned, (stopped to politely talk to customers in the restaurant, even when I motioned for them to see me.) When they came to me,, they were calm, polite, & never once gave us any disagreeable feelings. I never had to stand up, be frisked, or anything. I had informed them I had my gun on my body, and they said; "Yeah, we know."
My ability to be aware of my surroundings, allowed me to be proactive, and prepared when the potential thug made a move. When he tried to get into my wifes car, with her there,, I was parked beside her, and had my door partially open, yelling at him to get away from her. I did NOT see a weapon in the thug's hands, so I didn't point my gun at him. When he did back away, he saw my gun and commented; "Oh, you got a gun! I'm calling the police!" (This was just before I was going to strike him with my truck door to get him away from my wife.)
Not every case of brandishing a firearm will result in charges.
But back to the original discussion.
Motor memory skills can be developed to make a person quicker in his draw & shooting. It's done by proper practice, in many various scenarios, that require it.
But,, I can add to a bit of the discussion by the members here. I'm a firearms instructor, and a USPSA competitor & Range officer.
The comment;
"The theory is flawed. It doesn't take into account training and muscle memory."
Training, as discussed above is an excellent way to develop skills that may allow a person to be faster, smoother, & more likely to be the first one to draw a firearm.
But I always talk about "motor memory skill" which is mistakenly called "muscle memory."
Muscles do not react w/o the brain telling them what to do.
Motor memory skills are a conditioned learned action or reaction by the brain. Just like doing anything daily or often enough in repetition to where the brain develops a response without the conscious thought to do so.
Just like driving a vehicle.
Do it often enough & you do not independently think about all the little steps you take to drive a vehicle. Things like; Unlocking the door, opening the door, sitting down, putting your foot on the brake, inserting the key, turning the key, placing you hand on the steering wheel, putting the vehicle in gear, turning the wheel in the direction needed, moving your foot from the brake to the gas & back when needed, turning the wheel to direct the vehicle, and when confronted with a sudden, unexpected action in front of you, hitting the brake and/or turning the steering wheel away from it.
None of us are born with motor memory skills to do anything,, but we learn them by repetition. The brain can tell us what to do quicker than we can consciously think about each & every step.
In shooting, by practicing a draw, stance, sight acquisition, grip, trigger control, recoil management & follow through, we can become faster & faster the more we practice these skills by training our brain to accept the motor memory necessary to do these things.
Just like Dave P.'s comments about his participation in the studies.
But it's not muscle memory, it's motor memory skills.
Blume357 has mentioned his many hours of training. Excellent. And yet,, he can attest to how fast I am vs his own skills, as he's videoed it. And I'm NOT a super fast shooter. Blume's skills are very good. But I have over 20 years of shooting practice by being a USPSA competitor.
In that game, you will spend a lot of time doing all the skills necessary to be a faster AND more accurate shooter.
RRM is right about the average whack job not being that fast or good either,, but will most likely already have their gun in a "ready" condition.
But there have been a few cases of where known competitors who do have good motor memory skills were confronted by a thug, and they came out on top, quickly.
And IDPA competition has CCW draws, so that skill can be easily practiced as well.
"in a lot of instances, "real world" conditions are not conducive to matching up with practice."
This comment,, I can say is both true & false. Many real world conditions can easily be duplicated in practice. In USPSA,, we are challenged at every match with different scenarios that require a draw, accurate shooting, movement, reloading, deciding which actions to take when, & overall, a mental challenge as well as physical ones. ALL of this takes place "on the clock" which places a certain amount of stress factor upon your skills. This alone is an excellent skill to develop better motor memory.
But there is no way to totally practice every possible scenario that might take place in the real world. That's why practicing a competition game such as USPSA or IDPA can be a big help in developing motor memory skills that might save your life.
"I fully intend to have my gun in my hand if/when I need it. Needing to perform a 'quick draw' means my observation skills failed."
This quote, has a lot of truth in it. Observation skills are a MUST to be able to be as prepared as possible. As noted by KIR, "Lesson #6."
My Karate Master taught us our best weapon was our legs,, run like hell.
By being observant,, we can avoid MANY, MANY situations where things might go bad.
And;
"Just be prepared to be charged with agg assault with a firearm and improper display of a weapon, regardless what your side of the story is.
Have a criminal atty and bondsman lined up, and a cash stash to pay those persons when needed."
I can personally disagree with that statement.
I've had the occasion to be in a position where I had my firearm out, in a non-threatening manner, and the police were called. And the guy who prompted this action was the one who called the police. He did so as I extracted my wife & myself from his vicinity, and moved well away from everything.
When the police arrived, they were calm, not overly concerned, (stopped to politely talk to customers in the restaurant, even when I motioned for them to see me.) When they came to me,, they were calm, polite, & never once gave us any disagreeable feelings. I never had to stand up, be frisked, or anything. I had informed them I had my gun on my body, and they said; "Yeah, we know."
My ability to be aware of my surroundings, allowed me to be proactive, and prepared when the potential thug made a move. When he tried to get into my wifes car, with her there,, I was parked beside her, and had my door partially open, yelling at him to get away from her. I did NOT see a weapon in the thug's hands, so I didn't point my gun at him. When he did back away, he saw my gun and commented; "Oh, you got a gun! I'm calling the police!" (This was just before I was going to strike him with my truck door to get him away from my wife.)
Not every case of brandishing a firearm will result in charges.
But back to the original discussion.
Motor memory skills can be developed to make a person quicker in his draw & shooting. It's done by proper practice, in many various scenarios, that require it.
That is wonderful....for those who have the time, money and dedication to pursue and perfect those skills to the point they are muscle memory or motor skills or whatever the words of the day may be. I don't and don't know many who do.
And my personal experience is that I was jailed and had to fight over a year on the charges. We have open carry at our residences, and I was defending my wife and myself in my yard from a known druggie who was trespassing and would not leave and got aggressive. He called the police after he baited me into drawing on him. He knew exactly what he was doing. Then he spun an incredible yarn to the responding LEO. Side note--took them 12 minutes to get here after both of us called and I can see their back door and cruisers form my front yard!!
The LEO did not charge me. They wrote a report. A sniveling little state attorney then decided to charge me. Ultimately, I had to take pretrial diversion for several more months and at more expense to me. They "pled down" to an affray (a joke given the original charges). Had to take that as the risk if I lost to a jury "of my peers" would be a felony. So I missed an entire hunting season I'll never get back and I'm out several thousand bucks.
So, I stand by what I said: be prepared to be charged. You are an idiot if you don't, IMO. Of course, YMMV, but preparation is the key. If you are gonna spend that much of your life practicing to be Quick Draw McGraw you should know an attorney and bondsman.
JackBull
Hunter
I was physically attacked and knocked down by an assailant and he was screaming at me for trespassing, I was retrieving my dog. I fell on my artificial hip and had trouble getting up. He stood over me the entire time. I pulled my gun to prevent another attack. He ran into the house and called the police, with whom he had connections.
DA told my lawyer she did not believe in CC, I refused to admit I was the aggressor. Went to court. Convicted, appealed and won. Pleaded quity to breech of peace, my wife could not take another trial.
contender
Ruger Guru
The good thing about motor memory skills, is that you can EASILY practice certain ones, at NO expense,, except your time.
All of the serious, top level competitors, as well as most casual but dedicated USPSA shooters who want to be better at the game, do a simple thing.
Dry fire practice.
In your home, pick a safe spot, put on your gun & holster rig. DO NOT HAVE ANY AMMO AROUND AT ALL.
Then, do a series of draws, and EMPTY chamber trigger pulls.
Focus upon PROPER skills, w/o pushing the speed factor. Speed will come as the skills increase.
If you can, use a timer to "beep" to start your dry fire draw. (There are phone apps that can do this as well.)
Stance, draw, grip, sight acquisition, trigger pull all can be practiced EASILY.
You can advance your skills by also getting spare magazines or speed loaders etc to match your gun, USING SNAP CAPS OR DUMMY ROUNDS, to where you can practice reloads.
All this can develop motor memory skills to a better level.
Then, live fire at a competition can assist in building more skills. Even if you only do it occasionally. But dry-fire practice is a well proven technique used by almost everyone.
Sorry to hear you were put in a bad situation, but I can also say it's often up to whatever DA is around & what they think they can do.
In your case,, by what you've shared, (I do not know all the details,) instead of confronting the druggie,, you should have called 911, and retreated into your home, instead of allowing yourself be baited into drawing your gun. You became the aggressor by what you said.
I don't practice to be "QuickDraw McGraw" but instead I practice to keep my motor memory skills sharp & as good as possible. I take it seriously that I may need a firearm to protect myself or my family.
ANYONE can do this free practice to help their skill set.
BUT,, I also seriously make a very conscious effort to NOT allow myself be put into a situation where I may be forced to use a firearm. In my case above,, I had my gun "at ready" yet never used it in a threatening manner. I have also discussed this very case with (a) the Lieutenant of the PD in the jurisdiction, (b) a LEO friend, (c) my LEO son, (who chewed me out for NOT being the one to call 911 & getting my side on record.) (d) a retired Federal LEO, and a few others. In my case,, ALL of the LEO's said that they admired my restraint, my ability to recognize the fact he didn't have a weapon, not escalating the situation, and my favorite,, ALL said that they each would have most likely shot the guy. That includes the Lieutenant over the responding officers.
All of the serious, top level competitors, as well as most casual but dedicated USPSA shooters who want to be better at the game, do a simple thing.
Dry fire practice.
In your home, pick a safe spot, put on your gun & holster rig. DO NOT HAVE ANY AMMO AROUND AT ALL.
Then, do a series of draws, and EMPTY chamber trigger pulls.
Focus upon PROPER skills, w/o pushing the speed factor. Speed will come as the skills increase.
If you can, use a timer to "beep" to start your dry fire draw. (There are phone apps that can do this as well.)
Stance, draw, grip, sight acquisition, trigger pull all can be practiced EASILY.
You can advance your skills by also getting spare magazines or speed loaders etc to match your gun, USING SNAP CAPS OR DUMMY ROUNDS, to where you can practice reloads.
All this can develop motor memory skills to a better level.
Then, live fire at a competition can assist in building more skills. Even if you only do it occasionally. But dry-fire practice is a well proven technique used by almost everyone.
Sorry to hear you were put in a bad situation, but I can also say it's often up to whatever DA is around & what they think they can do.
In your case,, by what you've shared, (I do not know all the details,) instead of confronting the druggie,, you should have called 911, and retreated into your home, instead of allowing yourself be baited into drawing your gun. You became the aggressor by what you said.
I don't practice to be "QuickDraw McGraw" but instead I practice to keep my motor memory skills sharp & as good as possible. I take it seriously that I may need a firearm to protect myself or my family.
ANYONE can do this free practice to help their skill set.
BUT,, I also seriously make a very conscious effort to NOT allow myself be put into a situation where I may be forced to use a firearm. In my case above,, I had my gun "at ready" yet never used it in a threatening manner. I have also discussed this very case with (a) the Lieutenant of the PD in the jurisdiction, (b) a LEO friend, (c) my LEO son, (who chewed me out for NOT being the one to call 911 & getting my side on record.) (d) a retired Federal LEO, and a few others. In my case,, ALL of the LEO's said that they admired my restraint, my ability to recognize the fact he didn't have a weapon, not escalating the situation, and my favorite,, ALL said that they each would have most likely shot the guy. That includes the Lieutenant over the responding officers.
The goal is not to win a civil suit or criminal trial … the goal is to never become a defendant.
You come live in the methhead and homeless infested world I was in then you judge. The police admitted they were allowing the homeless to make an encampment on public property next to our county library right behind my house. My wife was incessantly harassed by these people who constantly trespassed. All this while the cops did NOTHING. Did you see their response time with a weapon involved? It's a joke to be an honest citizen man.
The mandated PTI "anger mgt" intake person said he would flat have shot the guy. He also determined I didn't need anger mgt ($45 later).
Keep practicing your reflexes though! May come in handy in the showers!
Thanks for sharing your story. NO one who has not been in these situations can appreciate it. The criminals know how to work the system, just like your assailant. And plenty of lily livered folks in the system are more than happy to oblige them. No law guarantees you will prevail. I had "stand your ground" (no duty to retreat) on my side (remember Trayvon?), but you can not rely on that.
After they inflict plenty of hurt on you they'll often drop it to some BS charge to plea you out--just like they do with the real criminals. Folks you are treated NO differently than a career criminal. I'd never been charged with anything in my life when that happened. It took 3 pages to print my aggressor's rap sheet for just our county. Law enforcement DOES NOT CARE about your "rights".
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JackBull
Hunter
My wife said she was shocked at how fast my trespass warning went to homophobic slurs from this guy. I returned in kind, but this guy was tweaked and spoiling for a fight.
I spoke with someone who got charged with an aggravating factor in Hawaii. He shot an aggressor in his home with a SA revolver. Prosecutor claimed having to cock gun showed it was malice.
THIS IS WHAT WE ARE UP AGAINST FOLKS!!! Ignore at your peril!
Actually, the first goal is to live to tell about it and if need be defend your actions... the alternative is pointless.
In expanding on what Contender said.... I think the reaction time is because your brain/nerves are bypassing a part of the brain that analyzed and responds. I know there are many times while driving that I can't even remember the last couple of minutes .... my body and some part of my brain is just doing it with out any conscious thought.
Adding a bit to my above post. This morning I had my swim practice session with Sue who is the retired U of M professor I've know forever and dragged me into their lab years ago when we were dating, still calls when they want a guinea pig for something. She was a D1 swimmer back in collage and is helping me in my triathlon attempt. About the last 10 years or so she's gotten away from the muscle side of things and focused on research to help stroke or brain injury patients. Basically she says if you want to be good in a old western movie style gunfight to practice a LOT and be under 30 years old with good genetics.....basically just like any other physical sport. Anybody can make themselves faster with practice to a point..... then you've got what you've got and WILL slow as you age. As for people competing, she suggesting doing all your practice with whatever type of shot timer beep used in competition and whatever hearing protection, glasses and headgear you usually wear. Dress however you do competing. Really focus on initiating movement at the beep then worry about hitting something later. Thinking unless somebody has been a long time competitor doing serious practice they ought to be able to pick up .1 to .2 seconds on the start alone.
Thought a training setup would start the clock at the same time the beep started and a contact switch where the gun grip was to stop it, basically work at driving your gun hand from the surrender position to the gun are fast as possible. Also just random thinking that a beep that was hard to hear and shorter in time would teach the brain/ears to listen better, want to fire the muscles at the first hint of sound. She knows basically nothing about shooting but is plenty smart about human performance and optimization of it.
She pointed out with perfect sense that my visual reaction to the light was faster because hockey, motocross and cars were all visual driven sports, my body and brain were conditioned for years to that.
The people with track and swimming backgrounds who were trained to react to starting guns were almost all quicker to sounds than visual stimulus in that study, didn't surprise her at all.
She offered to have some grad students set it up again if I wanted to see how much slower and weaker I am 15 years later...no thanks!
Thought a training setup would start the clock at the same time the beep started and a contact switch where the gun grip was to stop it, basically work at driving your gun hand from the surrender position to the gun are fast as possible. Also just random thinking that a beep that was hard to hear and shorter in time would teach the brain/ears to listen better, want to fire the muscles at the first hint of sound. She knows basically nothing about shooting but is plenty smart about human performance and optimization of it.
She pointed out with perfect sense that my visual reaction to the light was faster because hockey, motocross and cars were all visual driven sports, my body and brain were conditioned for years to that.
The people with track and swimming backgrounds who were trained to react to starting guns were almost all quicker to sounds than visual stimulus in that study, didn't surprise her at all.
She offered to have some grad students set it up again if I wanted to see how much slower and weaker I am 15 years later...no thanks!
beentheredone
Single-Sixer
I believe it was Wyatt Earp who said that the secret of winning a gunfight is to, "Take your time, quickly."
contender
Ruger Guru
"You come live in the methhead and homeless infested world I was in then you judge. The police admitted they were allowing the homeless to make an encampment on public property next to our county library right behind my house. My wife was incessantly harassed by these people who constantly trespassed. All this while the cops did NOTHING. Did you see their response time with a weapon involved? It's a joke to be an honest citizen man.
The mandated PTI "anger mgt" intake person said he would flat have shot the guy. He also determined I didn't need anger mgt ($45 later).
Keep practicing your reflexes though! May come in handy in the showers!"
You act as if I was attacking you RRM.
I was not.
I was pointing out a different point of view. Your point of view doesn't seem to allow for any other viewpoint.
You may live in a bad place. You may have harder laws to follow. You may have anti-gun judicial people. You may have several things that influence your point of view.
But I also have my point of view.
I also have LEO's in my family as well as several as friends. I also associate with lawyers & a few judges.
And in my area,, we respect law-abiding people. And for the most part,, the LEO's around here recognize the problem people, and they also understand when a law-abiding person tries to stop something.
BUT,, NC law concerning self defense AND the use of deadly force is also clear in that you can not be the aggressor.
By your post,, and what you stated, you were the aggressor when you brandished your gun.
As the school yard saying goes; "Sticks & stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me."
Words. Nothing more. If you have enough control to let words NOT affect you, then the thugs will either give up, or they will escalate things to where they become the aggressor.
I've had Drill Instructors get in my face, and call me names, call my mother names, call all my relatives names. Say the ugliest things imaginable. Yet,, I did not let it bother me.
It's done to GET a response, and usually they WANT a violent type of response.
We, as law-abiding gun owners NEED to show the anti's we are NOT the crazies etc by resorting to violence at the least amount of provocation. All that does is fuel their fire to take away our rights.
Owning a firearm comes with responsibility, and that responsibility should always include as much retreat as possible to avoid a conflict. It's not cowardice,, it's intelligence.
Your comment; "It's a joke to be an honest citizen man" is an insult to many of the fine folks on this forum.
There are MANY, MANY honest citizens here, and we support law-abiding actions.
RRM,,, you are new here. And you are very welcome here. But this Forum has always tried to be very open, polite & respectful of everyone. That is, until they show disrespect, or verbally attack other members.
Now,, I'm NOT accusing you of anything,, but your words point to a little disrespect for the law-abiding people here.
Yes,, your living in a bad neighborhood can affect your views, actions & such.
And we have a town nearby, (Asheville NC) that is a cesspool of the very type of people you described. Homeless, trespassers, drug abusers, etc. And as such, the city leaders & city DA & all are very liberal, very anti-police, very soft on such crimes etc. That is why we have such a cesspool in Asheville. AND,, due to such attitudes in that town,, the conservative, law-abiding have moved out of the areas where that stuff is allowed. The city police dept has suffered a 40%-45% loss of cops who've left. Problems abound.
But that still doesn't legally excuse a person from being the aggressor with a firearm.
Now,, I have always chosen to NOT live in a place with such problems. Even when I was in the Army, and chose to live off post,, many of the areas that I could afford were crime ridden & bad places. I CHOSE to work harder at finding a better place to live,, because I did not want to find myself in any kind of potential trouble, just because of where I lived.
I'm proud to be an honest citizen. I also know that I can, only if necessary, use my skills to protect myself or my family. I'm a Vet, and my youngest is a LEO. I know the laws, and I CHOOSE to abide by them. I also know, that if I'm forced to use my firearm, it'd be the last resort. I'll not brandish a firearm without expecting to have to use it. I'll have one at the ready, and I'll also accept that if I do use it, I'll be within my legal rights to do so. It may cost me money, and a trip through the legal system. But, I'll prevail, because I have already proven my restraint, and my ability to avoid an armed conflict unless absolutely necessary.
Brandishing, threatening etc with a firearm is NOT the avenue to take. ESPECIALLY with the thugs who already know the insides & outsides of "the system" and how to get out of things.
In short, I do NOT have to worry about my "shower time."
But I will POLITELY ask that you show a bit more respect for the honest citizens here on this Forum please!
The mandated PTI "anger mgt" intake person said he would flat have shot the guy. He also determined I didn't need anger mgt ($45 later).
Keep practicing your reflexes though! May come in handy in the showers!"
You act as if I was attacking you RRM.
I was not.
I was pointing out a different point of view. Your point of view doesn't seem to allow for any other viewpoint.
You may live in a bad place. You may have harder laws to follow. You may have anti-gun judicial people. You may have several things that influence your point of view.
But I also have my point of view.
I also have LEO's in my family as well as several as friends. I also associate with lawyers & a few judges.
And in my area,, we respect law-abiding people. And for the most part,, the LEO's around here recognize the problem people, and they also understand when a law-abiding person tries to stop something.
BUT,, NC law concerning self defense AND the use of deadly force is also clear in that you can not be the aggressor.
By your post,, and what you stated, you were the aggressor when you brandished your gun.
As the school yard saying goes; "Sticks & stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me."
Words. Nothing more. If you have enough control to let words NOT affect you, then the thugs will either give up, or they will escalate things to where they become the aggressor.
I've had Drill Instructors get in my face, and call me names, call my mother names, call all my relatives names. Say the ugliest things imaginable. Yet,, I did not let it bother me.
It's done to GET a response, and usually they WANT a violent type of response.
We, as law-abiding gun owners NEED to show the anti's we are NOT the crazies etc by resorting to violence at the least amount of provocation. All that does is fuel their fire to take away our rights.
Owning a firearm comes with responsibility, and that responsibility should always include as much retreat as possible to avoid a conflict. It's not cowardice,, it's intelligence.
Your comment; "It's a joke to be an honest citizen man" is an insult to many of the fine folks on this forum.
There are MANY, MANY honest citizens here, and we support law-abiding actions.
RRM,,, you are new here. And you are very welcome here. But this Forum has always tried to be very open, polite & respectful of everyone. That is, until they show disrespect, or verbally attack other members.
Now,, I'm NOT accusing you of anything,, but your words point to a little disrespect for the law-abiding people here.
Yes,, your living in a bad neighborhood can affect your views, actions & such.
And we have a town nearby, (Asheville NC) that is a cesspool of the very type of people you described. Homeless, trespassers, drug abusers, etc. And as such, the city leaders & city DA & all are very liberal, very anti-police, very soft on such crimes etc. That is why we have such a cesspool in Asheville. AND,, due to such attitudes in that town,, the conservative, law-abiding have moved out of the areas where that stuff is allowed. The city police dept has suffered a 40%-45% loss of cops who've left. Problems abound.
But that still doesn't legally excuse a person from being the aggressor with a firearm.
Now,, I have always chosen to NOT live in a place with such problems. Even when I was in the Army, and chose to live off post,, many of the areas that I could afford were crime ridden & bad places. I CHOSE to work harder at finding a better place to live,, because I did not want to find myself in any kind of potential trouble, just because of where I lived.
I'm proud to be an honest citizen. I also know that I can, only if necessary, use my skills to protect myself or my family. I'm a Vet, and my youngest is a LEO. I know the laws, and I CHOOSE to abide by them. I also know, that if I'm forced to use my firearm, it'd be the last resort. I'll not brandish a firearm without expecting to have to use it. I'll have one at the ready, and I'll also accept that if I do use it, I'll be within my legal rights to do so. It may cost me money, and a trip through the legal system. But, I'll prevail, because I have already proven my restraint, and my ability to avoid an armed conflict unless absolutely necessary.
Brandishing, threatening etc with a firearm is NOT the avenue to take. ESPECIALLY with the thugs who already know the insides & outsides of "the system" and how to get out of things.
In short, I do NOT have to worry about my "shower time."
But I will POLITELY ask that you show a bit more respect for the honest citizens here on this Forum please!
My comment about 'having my gun in my hand' was wildly exaggerated and misconstrued as meaning I would be waving the gun around like some TV actor.
First off, I live in a very rural area where carrying a firearm is quite common. Secondly, I carry crossdraw usually with some sort of cover garment meaning with a very innocuous crossing of my arms, my hand has a shooting grip on my pistol or drawn w/o being visible. Finally, I'm a somewhat frail appearing geezer who can easily justify 'being afraid for my safety' if braced by anyone younger, bigger, or stronger (which is darned near everyone).
First off, I live in a very rural area where carrying a firearm is quite common. Secondly, I carry crossdraw usually with some sort of cover garment meaning with a very innocuous crossing of my arms, my hand has a shooting grip on my pistol or drawn w/o being visible. Finally, I'm a somewhat frail appearing geezer who can easily justify 'being afraid for my safety' if braced by anyone younger, bigger, or stronger (which is darned near everyone).
Snake Pleskin
Banned
If you had been with two different officers the results could have been vey different and not pleasant(IMHO) I have had simial encounters and my experience is, the Police come and take everyone, and sort it out later!
