The Bundy Trial

[Rancher Will]

In the past there has been a few posts on this site concerning the "Bundy Case" involving the Federal BLM and the Cliven Bundy rancher and others. The trial, originally scheduled for November 7 has started today (Nov 14). As a rancher in Colorado I have more or less followed this case at a distance since it involves the ranching and cattle industry. This trial seems to me to have some peculiarities that are very strange. Defendants include Cliven Bundy, Ammon Bundy, Ryan Bundy, Ryan Payne.

Dan Love, the BLM agent in charge in April, 2014 has been fired from the BLM as a result of "unethical conduct a number of times" according to the U.S. Inspector General. Included in the "number of times", Love was in charge of the BLM roundup of Bundy cattle during calving season, with intent to sell them by the BLM, that resulted in the deaths of a number of the cattle. Also included in unethical conduct was "ordered emails ordered by Love to be deleted and "scrubbed".

Before opening of the trial today, U.S. District Judge Gloria Navarro, has made a number of restrictive rulings, before opening arguments. Only as a career LEO, I having been involved in a few hundred court cases, although no an attorney, I am somewhat puzzled by some. Included in the pre-trial rulings are:

The Defense is not permitted to mention the killing of the cattle. No mention of Self defense can be made in front of the jury for the reason that the judge stated she "already believes the protesters were protesting against the Federal Officials "military style" rather than defending themselves and family." No mention of First or Second Amendment Rights, nor the word "Constitution" may be used in court before the jury, plus no mention about the BLM's actions that caused the defendants to protest will be allowed in the trial.

There was no report today concerning the Judge's decision about the government surveillance video footage that exists but the government has refused to be submitted as evidence requested by the Defense.

Source of information today -
Tri-State Livestock News

 

[Colonialgirl]

Sounds like an OBAMA/Clinton appointed left winger who wants to DICTATE the outcome of the trial before it even starts.

 

[JPGLSG]

If any body thinks the government is going to give these men a fair shake they are dreaming. Maybe the jury can make a difference if they are aware of just how this whole travesty went down, before they get seated in the box

 

[bogus bill]

Is this the same judge in Vegas that was on the prior Bundy trial? Back then what little seen of her I thought she should be disbarred and ran out of town. She considers herself a dictator and god. I couldn't understand why she is still in position. Someone in high power needs to get rid of her if possible. I think she thinks she is Queen of the U.S. and there isn't a king. She is a female Hitler.

 

[Ugly Hombre]

"Is this the same judge in Vegas that was on the prior Bundy trial?"

Looks like it-


I would not vote to convict Mr Bundy.

I don't care what a Obama appointed Judge says.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloria_Navarro

No way.

She is a Prog. Harry Reid Judge

We need justice not leftist subversion in our courts.

 

[Gator89]

I am intrigued by the outlooks of posters on various forums.

I see lots of support on this forum for the Bundys.

On another gun forum I frequent, the posters tend to be in favor of the BLM because they say the ranchers deny public access to the Federally owned lands.

I am undecided, but I enjoy the various perspectives.

I would truly like to know what prompted the Feds to decide the Bundys were a major issue, it surely is more than just unpaid grazing fees.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

I haven't followed the Bundy situation--now case--closely enough to know what charges are being brought, but in looking at his past history with BLM, I wouldn't be surprised if they're trying to come up with something special that's not really on the books. Mr. Bundy is apparently well known as being a PITA, but that's not illegal. Nor is it illegal to be stupid, which I'm tempted to think he is, relating back to being a PITA to the Feds. I can't think of anyone I know with half a brain who doesn't know they really can't stand that type of behavior. Therefore, they're gonna throw a lot of stuff at the wall and see what sticks. In essence, they'll try to do an arguably legal version of "Get him out of our hair!" And it sounds like this judge knows what's sticky and what's not, so she wants to make sure what's allowed in her courtroom is the stickiest of the sticky! My bet is that regardless of whether he's TRULY guilty or innocent, he's going away...

Rick C

 

[blume357]

I think if I was the Bundy's lawyer after what the OP just posted... what I would do at this trial is absolutely nothing.... until the close. Then I would say that the judge had before the trial denied my client a fair hearing and leave it at that..... seems like a lot of grounds for appeal to me even before the trial starts.

 

[bogus bill]

I live a hour and half from his place. There is/was a lot of radio talk show about the case here early on. I have rode ATV on his lease. I met Finicom on his lease. Didn't know who he was until a few months later when he was killed. There are some mitigating factors behind the case from stuff I heard. That area once had many ranchers that were drove out through the years and Bundy is about the last left. While they have lease`s they also have put up water tanks etc that deer and other wildlife use. I have seen plastic pipe running for miles in those areas. I have heard skuttlebuck that Harry Reeds son is big into those sun powered farms around here with the Japanese and wants to use BLM land over there.
Bundy family was originally from near Mt. Turnbull that now is deserted. There is a schoolhouse there that the Bundy family rebuilt as a museum or monument to where they went to school. Its half way to the north rim of the grand canyon on the Arizona strip. About 60 miles down from St. George in the middle of no where. Not a living sole except a fly in dude ranch near the North rim another 30 miles or so. We found the school on a ATV ride. I was surprised to find the door unlocked without even a lock on the door. The inside has pictures etc on the wall from back around the 1910`s to late 1930`s or so where mostly Bundys went to school. I think the Bundys built the school when vandels burnt down the original from what was on the signs etc. They couldnt be all that bad to do that. Take a look here.
http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/17685158.jpg

 

[powder smoke]

Looks like the Judge has her thumb on the scales of Justice! ps

 

[Chief 101]

Here is an article from Range Magazine on the subject. http://www.rangemagazine.com/features/fall-17/range-fa17-constitution_not_allowed.pdf
It may be worthwhile to look further into the RangeMagazine site for more interesting articles on the Western lifestyle...good pics also

 

[Paul B]

Sounds like a typical federal trial to me. I was called up for jury duty on a federal case and after those were picked I had to stick around as one of the jurors picked was a friend who wanted a ride home. What that judge said to the jurors was literally after all is done you WILL find the defendant guilty. Sounded to me like he was ordering them to deliver a guilty verdict.
Paul B.
Edited to add, frankly, I no longer believe there is such a thing as a fair trial. I wonder how many plea bargains are made because the defendant can't afford the mega thousands of dollars their attorneys charge?
PB

 

[CGDustDevil]

I have been following this series of trials very closely. I have updates twice a day from two groups who are actually inside the courtroom and in attendance.

There are some real earth shakers coming out of this.

Ryan Bundy was allowed to go to a halfway house a few days ago, and got to embrace his wife and children for the 1st time in some 640 days. Ryan is representing himself, and has been commanding some serious respect in the courtroom. Ammon and Cliven were refused pre-trial release because they're so dangerous... (Sarcasm)

The jury selection process was as lop-sided as ever, and the judge (Navarro) deemed it fine that federal employees could be impartial, but anyone who even showed remote support for the Bundys were excluded.

Opening statements began yesterday, and oddly enough a LOT of information made it into the prosecution's opening statements that has never been allowed in any of the other trials.

Ryan Bundy had a rocky first few minutes in his opening statement this morning, but collected his thoughts, found his courtroom rhythm and did an absolutely splendid job of laying out the case. Cliven's lawyer said he's been at this for years, and in 28 federal cases he's argued, he's never seen anything like Ryan's performance. He said Ryan 'hit it out of the park'... At the end of his statements, the court was in absolute silence for several minutes. Pretty incredible.

The trial is going to last 'till the end of February, with only 11 or so 'court days' in December. They're only doing 3 or 4 days a week.

Ryan made a point yesterday of telling the court, and specifically the judge, that the so-called 'justice system' has everything exactly backward when one of the defendants decided to cop a plea rather than go through the trial, and the prosecution wanted to postpone the trial to collect more discovery that they SHOULD have given to the Defense, but never have. Ryan admonished the court that admitting guilt gets 'the guilty party' rewarded with release, yet maintaining one's innocence (with the supposed presumption of innocence) is punished by keeping legally innocent people locked up, unable to mount a proper defense. (It's also come out that the feds are monitoring, and supposedly recording all the client/lawyer conversations)

It should also be known that the trip to and from the CCA Prison in Pahrump requires they leave the prison at around 4:00 to 4:30 a.m., and they don't get back to the prison until 9:30 p.m. They are in irons at all times in the court and have no private time with their legal team. Absolutely no time to do anything for themselves.

An interesting tidbit came out today... The 'fines' that the government had levied against the Bundy family that required all this hoopla was not 'in the millions of dollars' as has been advertised. It was around $8000 dollars. That is eight thousand dollars.

The rental cowboys the government hired to rustle Cliven's cattle cost 10 times that amount, and they're said to have spent tens of millions of dollars on these trials to date. Good job, government. Mickey Rooney once said he lost 50 bucks at the racetrack, and he spent 15 million trying to get it back. Not unlike the government, it seems!

We also now know (as does the jury) that the dump trucks that were coming and going from the property prior to the stand off were carrying the water infrastructure (Pipes, tanks, valves, etc) that the BLM had torn out, destroyed and were in the process of carting off.

There's going to be a lot of blockbusters coming out... I'm not even remotely optimistic that they will be acquitted, but the details are going to be astounding. And it only takes one to hang the jury and avoid a guilty verdict. They're probably going to have to do several of these trials, but the prosecution is still determined to get a guilty verdict and put the Bundys away. Some of the others who've been convicted already have received as few as 7, and as many as 68 years in prison, 85% of which MUST be served. For some of these guys, that's a life sentence. Clearly at 71, Cliven can't possibly survive that sort of sentence.

I am archiving every official update from the supporters who are selflessly donating their time to support these people... It's gonna be a heck of a story.

Regards, Pete

 

[Pat-inCO]

Sounds like an OBAMA/Clinton appointed left winger who wants to DICTATE
the outcome of the trial before it even starts.

True!
(IMO) It also lays groundwork for an appeal.

Looks like the Judge has her thumb on the scales of Justice!

PS: Let me correct your spelling.
Looks like the Judge has her thumb on the scales of INjustice!


Standard disclaimer applies.
I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. :wink:

 

[BearBio]

Easy solution: Stop RURAL WELFARE. End grazing leases on all public land. That will benefit:
1. The economy (restore free markets and stop socialistic ranching practices!)
2. The habitat
3. Hunting and fishing rights.
5. Public access.
6. Endangered species.
7. Animal (deer and elk populations).
8. Reduce predation on livestock (more game) and reduce dangers to people (more game for predators).

Even charging MARKET VALUE will reduce the deadbeats like the Bundys and reward the REAL ranchers (and not the melon farmers on the public dole). Go after small business loan defaulters and seize the buildings. etc of deadbeats who agree to pay their legal debts and then welch!

 

[Chief 101]

Easy solution: Stop RURAL WELFARE. End grazing leases on all public land. That will benefit:
1. The economy (restore free markets and stop socialistic ranching practices!)
2. The habitat
3. Hunting and fishing rights.
5. Public access.
6. Endangered species.
7. Animal (deer and elk populations).
8. Reduce predation on livestock (more game) and reduce dangers to people (more game for predators).

Even charging MARKET VALUE will reduce the deadbeats like the Bundys and reward the REAL ranchers (and not the melon farmers on the public dole). Go after small business loan defaulters and seize the buildings. etc of deadbeats who agree to pay their legal debts and then welch!

there is always somebody in the crowd that missed the train!

 

[BearBio]

As always, attack the messenger.......

Any INTELLIGENT comments?

Did a little background checking:

1. I find no military records for Cliven, Ryan or Ammon Bundy.
2 NUMEROUS (at least six) of Bundy's "Patriots" have been investigated for "Stolen Valor".
3. His "Security Head" deserted from the Marine Corps (enlisted but never showed up).
4. Another Bundy son was arrested and imprisoned for burglary.
5. All three Bundys have been charged with owing back taxes (Federal and property)
6. None are "ranchers"==Cliven grows melons (runs cattle on land he doesn't own nor pays for=="leeches off the public dole"), Ammon runs a "truck stop", and Ryan is a construction worker. Vinicum was a deadbeat (2-3 failures as a rancher) and was running a foster care scam.



THESE ARE YOUR PATRIOTS?

Just so you know: I am a U.S. Army veteran, have always paid my taxes, pay my debts, never been in jail. My family farmed and ranched the west since the 1860s (Grandfather was born not far from Malheur in 1898=rode rodeo in Pendleton in 1918). Worked my way through college and have worked or been in school continuously since high school (1968).

Any more attacks on me?

 

[bogus bill]

BearBio, would you please explain each of your eight points as to how you believe it would do it?

 

[Rancher Will]

Don't be too hard on BearBio. He is either trying to get a rise out of us with humor or he is a Democrat spouting political correct nonsense. None of his eight points have anything to do with "grazing leases on all public land". I too am in favor of stopping any and all "rural welfare". Grazing leases costs are paid by the ranchers and are not subsidized by taxpayers are some types of "rural welfare".

This post started as a report on the Bundy Trial and has nothing to do with "Rural Welfare".

 

[BearBio]

BearBio, would you please explain each of your eight points as to how you believe it would do it?

1. The economy (restore free markets and stop socialistic ranching practices!)
2. The habitat
3. Hunting and fishing rights.
5. Public access.
6. Endangered species.
7. Animal (deer and elk populations).
8. Reduce predation on livestock (more game) and reduce dangers to people (more game for predators).

#1: Already explained. Would reduce a drain on public funding. Ammon has stated that subsidies are a "right" and a function of the Federal Government (in reference to his SBA loan of $500,000+)
2. Livestock spread disease to wildlife (Blue Tongues, brucellosis, CWD) pollute water sources water sources. Uncontrolled ("feral" ) grazing, like Cliven does over grazes the land, reducing forage for wildlife. Livestock ranching increases feral dogs and cats into the environment (feral cats are the #1 threat to native birds. Second is habitat destruction, especially riparian areas).
3. Many "ranchers" fence or otherwise restrict public access (even if illegal to do so)
4. Mis-typed.
5. Public access=See # 3 above.
6.Endangered species: A more fragile version of #2 and #3--violation of Federal and State laws.
7: More food and cover for deer & elk (and other game), especially sage grouse, pheasant, ducks, etc.
8. More game and less livestock, obviously, means less predation on livestock (as well as humans).

Be glad to provide reviewed published articles substantiating the above (and others)

" Grazing leases costs are paid by the ranchers and are not subsidized by taxpayers are some types of "rural welfare"."

True: Grazing fees ARE paid to the ranchers but are GREATLY reduced from the rates for using private land. The government lease fees are set by Congress (currently around $2.50 per AUM as opposed to as much as $200 per AUM on current open market). The above statement is merely a mis-direction.

The original post has nothing to do with a "report" but is something Joseph Goebbels would have been proud of!=A great piece of propaganda!

 

[dougader]

Funny how the land, once owned outright by the old time ranchers, now is in the hands of the Feds and leases have to be paid for. Steal their land, charge them to use it, then kick them off after you abuse them for decades. Same thing in SE Oregon in Malheur county, where my family still lives.

You can bet the Feds are doubling down after having been handed their @sses with not guilty verdicts in Portland, OR.

Feds want the land - for whatever corrupt intentions they have for it - and they need the ranchers off the land, and they'll screw, jail or kill anyone in the way to get it.

 

[Rancher Will]

I guess I and my neighbors must be exceptions. I have had grazing leases in the West Elks since 1960 and in the Route National Forest since 1986. None of the points mentioned by Bear Bio are true here in Colorado. BearBio must have information from somewhere else.

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

BB has a bias against anyone not tied to the federal government, where he's been living off the tit most of his life.

 

[Mike J]

If the Federal Government obeyed the Constitution it would not own that land to start with. I believe that was one of the reasons the Bundys were protesting.

 

[BearBio]

"BB has a bias against anyone not tied to the federal government, where he's been living off the tit most of his life."

Another LIE. I worked for 25+ years in the real estate industry, 2 years military, 6+ years in school. That's a total of 33 years in private sector/non-Federal. I've only worked 17 years for the Feds.

Second LIE: I am not biased against non-government employees. But, working 85-90 hours per pay period (without overtime, BTW), I really resent "rural welfare" low-lifes saying we don't work. I get defensive about such stupid or ignorant remarks.

 

[BearBio]

"If the Federal Government obeyed the Constitution it would not own that land to start with. I believe that was one of the reasons the Bundys were protesting."

They were protesting Federal ownership BUT the Constitution does NOT prohibit Federal land. That has been settled in other threads. BTW: the Bundys BOUGHT their land in 1947 (Their tiny little melon ranch!)=before that, they lived in Las Vegas. So they didn't "pioneer" any land!

 

[Paul B]

"Second LIE: I am not biased against non-government employees. But, working 85-90 hours per pay period (without overtime, BTW), I really resent "rural welfare" low-lifes saying we don't work. I get defensive about such stupid or ignorant remarks."

How did you work all those hours and not be either paid or given comp time? I put in 33 years with the National Weather Service and during severe weather hits you stayed to back up your relief or they backed you up however you want to look at it. I worked many a 16+ hour shift and always got the overtime pay. probably the longest shift ever was during the flood of 1983. The world saw that one on the news. You know where trailer homes were sliding into the Santa Cruz River here in Tucson? Got to work just as it got started and didn't get off or home for three and a half days and I damn well got paid for every hour.
So, if you did not get paid the overtime or at least given comp time, somebody screwed you over.
Paul B.

 

[bogus bill]

On a very low level I did grunt work for the NPS in 1960 and 1961. Also worked for my state conservation dept in 1962. Then worked in the boonies another four years or so after that. I was too dumb and poor to go to a real college but did go to a cheap tech school for two years and majored in conservation in the late 1950`s. I am sure Bear Bio is far more educated than me plus worked his entire career in the field. That said I did some work that I didn't agree with so I wasn't a golden boy or a "90 day wonder" as we used to call the "rangers" that were college vacation workers that got to wear the smokey bear hats collecting money at the gates. I worked with quite a few older locals that worked many seasons or years before me. Maybe I am biased? I was taught conservation by teachers that studied it from text books but never did the actual dirty grunt work to my knowledge. One minor incident for example, there was a beautiful old log cabin that was there longer than the area was declared a park. It looked "romantic" but some wheel decided it wasn't "natural" because it was man made.and we were assigned to burn it down and had to "flush" the burnt ground to make it look like there never was a man made structure there. As I recall there really wasn't a road to it. On the conservation department we poisoned lakes that were overstocked with stunted fish and restock them.
My favorite activity is trail riding in our RZR or Quad. I have seen a few trails on BLM land with ether locked gates or no trespass signs placed on the side at a slight angle that I believe are to confuse a high percentage of the public into not going farther when they legally could. I met Finicom, the man murdered up in Oregon, on his lease in Arizona and he was nice and helpful when I asked directions etc.
The part that bugs me is that the BLM managers HAVE TO KNOW the few ranchers that do that practice, but it looks like they are happy to let them or they wouldn't let them get away with it. I once was a absentee owner of a few acres of prime hunting land for about thirty years but never did post it. When it comes to land like that, there are some types of owners that would gladly blow your head off if you spit over the fence walking past it, if they could get away with it.
It seems there is a shortage of common sense with some party's on both sides of the issue. It does seem there is some underlying corrupt political interests when the likes of Harry Reed appoints or influences judges that police the courts to his liking.
When some people land a sweet government job with benefits like retirement, vacations, paid holidays, vehicles and health insurance they see things different than ranchers that have to do all that for themselves.

 

[BearBio]

"How did you work all those hours and not be either paid or given comp time? I put in 33 years with the National Weather Service and during severe weather hits you stayed to back up your relief or they backed you up however you want to look at it. I worked many a 16+ hour shift and always got the overtime pay. probably the longest shift ever was during the flood of 1983. The world saw that one on the news. You know where trailer homes were sliding into the Santa Cruz River here in Tucson? Got to work just as it got started and didn't get off or home for three and a half days and I damn well got paid for every hour.
So, if you did not get paid the overtime or at least given comp time, somebody screwed you over"

I got credit time but only to 10 hrs (2 hrs per day). I am, also, a GS-12. (Started as a GS-9, made GS-12 in 3 years)

Bogus Bill: a pretty good post that points out several facts ignored so far. Our Station Supervisor was just appointed from within our Staff. Within two weeks I received a sharp reprimand for saying things he has said for years. The reasons were strictly political! I resigned as a Supervisor because, largely, of the politics versus Biology games.

 

[CGDustDevil]

This post started as a report on the Bundy Trial and has nothing to do with "Rural Welfare".

Thank you, Rancher Will.

I will not engage in any political arguments in this thread because I believe it's important to report the facts revealed in the trial in a venue where more people will have an opportunity to see it. Turning the thread into a political rant will only get it moved to the part of the forum that is much less frequently visited, and thus limit exposure.

I hope all participants will honor the Forum Guidelines as well as Rancher Will's intent for this particular thread.

In the spirit of the previous statement, here's some interesting information that's come to light in the trial regarding some trespass fees that have been discussed in the so-called 'media':

Trespass Fees (At the repeated willful rate): $ 8,815.50 (Over a 10 year period I understand)
Service Charge: $ 10.00
Admin Fees for investigation, detection and resolution: $283,776.00
Total monetary charges due to the U.S.: $292,601.50