SO what do you call accurate?

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hockeyref

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I see a lot of folks say that a load is "accurate", or that their gun is accurate. But, what is considered accurate? I'm talking revolvers here... 44sp\44mag with cast, cast w\GC, and jacketed.... Do you judge accuracy at 25\50\100\more yards?

Years ago I shot IHMSA and wanted my revolver (Ruger SBH w\the 10" barrel) to be able to take the shoot-off chickens at 200 yards so I wanted to see maybe 2 MOA groups at all yardages.... The Contender was another matter and I basically expected sub-MOA from it's loads.

Tell me, what do you want to see....
 
ALL OF 'EM in one hole at twenty five yards. Correspondingly so out to one hundred yards. WE plink tincans at 250. Do NOT hit a lot but we scare the 'ell out of 'em every shot.
And so it goes...
 
Talking revolvers, 1" or less at 25 yards. Too many years of PPC and NRA Action Pistol to accept less. I too shot IHMSA, and the load I had for my 7mm TCU would shoot 1 3/4" at 200 quite regularly. I haven't shot that gun in years, but I refuse to sell it because it is such a good shooter.
 
Within a 4 inch circle from 20 yds is plenty for me and any handgun....will get the job done on most anything!
 
I think there might be some confusion here about the difference between accuracy and precision as it relates to ballistics. A tight group indicates precision, but not necessarily accuracy, since the group can be far off from the point of aim. Accuracy can be a very dispersed group centered around the point of aim. You need both. Just sayin'. The initial goal should be precision, which will by it's nature, provide information for sight adjustment to bring the group closer to the point of aim. Precision is a function of the shooter, the rifle system (including optics), and the cartridge. Conquer those 3 and accuracy is just a matter of adjusting the sights to compensate for wind and other external factors.
 
Interesting thread. I have always been curious as to what folks expect. A lot of variables with shooter ability. IMHO a revolver is about as tough as it gets to shoot 2 MOA at 100 and beyond on demand. Most folks just don't have it in them to keep 5-6 shots in the group.
I mean you load your cylinder, and proceed to put them all in 2" every time out. I have not even come close. Maybe three and then it doubles or triples or worse.
I work most of my loads up at 50. Then go from there if it shows promise. I have had a couple of revolvers that have since went down the road that had issues with a couple of cylinders that threw flyers all the time. Up, down left or right but it was always the same two. The other one was one cylinder and it would run high and right all the time.
There is some work being done with a GP100 that is showing a good amount of promise. I am sitting back and seeing how it progresses.
I strive for the magic inch at 100. Am I going to get there on any kind of consistent base, I doubt it very highly.
As a mentor of mine always told me when practicing, "aim small miss small".
What I wouldn't give for a dose of some kind of youth medicine.
Jeff
 
off the bench I like 1" at 50 yards with either my .44 mag or .41 mag Ruger 3 screws. Standup and firing down range using my 70 year old eyes and tri-flocals 3" will get me putting up the gun and going to get a coffee and pie. If the groups stay around 4"-5" I'm happy but 40 years ago I would have sold the gun if I couldn't have keep groups 2" or under. Time and health make you change what you expect out of a gun. Ramson rest will give 3/4" groups at 50 yards from either gun but guns are not stock.
 
As noted above,,, accuracy AND precision are needed.
Also, as noted above, there are many variables, with both people & guns.

Everybody has different expectations out of their guns and they rarely admit the issue of inaccuracy may rest with them, the shooter.

IHMSA was a great place to truly "test the metal" so to speak for accuracy & precision. In a reloading manual by Elgin Gates back in 1982 they used the accepted accuracy of "groups of 2" or less at 50 yds" as the standard of acceptance.
Myself personally I start most of my shooting at 25 yds to get a feel for the sights & make general adjustments. I feel that 50 yds is a good happy distance for most revolver shooting, but prefer to see how much I can do out to 100 yds. If my range were longer, I'd be trying longer shots.

I think it falls to each person & their abilities to determine what they accept as accuracy & at what ranges. But, if they don't exceed the distances they normally shoot, they may never learn just what a revolver can (or can't) do at longer distances.
 
GunnyGene - please don't take this personally, but I gotta ask... with tongue firmly planted in cheek. Do you happen to be an engineer? LOL.... We can get into the ins and outs of how to make all of the holes as close together and possible but initially, I just wanted folks opinions on how close they expect to see them to cal a load acceptable.

I am pulling out and shooting a gun that has been in the safe for nearly 20 years and I admittedly am trying to jostle the memory and remember or "re-learn" stuff that is long forgotten. I have bullets left over from the IHMSA days that I'll load and shoot up - some with the same left over powder, some with new stuff. The problem is that nearly all of my notes were lost over the course of four moves in the past 20 years.

Contender - I actually miss IHMSA .... I do remember being pissed a bunch of times for my own lack of concentration after missing one of the first 5 chickens then running the table.... IIRC, I was AAA Unlimited and AAA Prod\Revolver but don't hold me to that revolver class til I find an old classification book. Prob AA off my hind legs but don't recall...
 
".... I do remember being pissed a bunch of times for my own lack of concentration after missing one of the first 5 chickens then running the table...."
Don't feel alone, lol. If I have to miss I would much rather it be the first or last chicken than the first or last ram. It's a lot easier to fix the chicken.
Jeff
 
Uhhh yeah - I missed that last ram a time or two (and of course went on to kill a bunch of 200 yard shoot-off chickens just to rub salt in it)...

You reach a point where it is the mental aspect that hold you back.... Well that and those dang turkeys.... LOL
 
I've never had the pleasure of shooting an actual IHMSA match,,, but I've studied enough to know it's NOT easy. Especially with a revolver. But, the game made people work harder at being accurate with a handgun & that was an excellent way to show just what a handgun COULD do.
 
There is shooting and there is the accuracy of the load and the gun.

It takes a pretty good or bad load for me to see any difference at all in my shooting, especially with a handgun. :D
 
hockeyref said:
You reach a point where it is the mental aspect that hold you back.... Well that and those dang turkeys.... LOL
Click to expand...

Hi,

"Turkeys are from h(eck)!"
--A buddy who shot AA for a while in whatever IMHSA's box stock revolver class is...

For myself, handguns are fun shooters, not serious items to wring my hands over. Between bad habits born of decades of competitive shotgunning and eyes that have celebrated their 21st birthday a third time so far, I'm not the shooter who can wring out whatever the gun's truly capable of, so if I can keep "minute of paper plate" out to 50 yds, that's an average day. Some days I can stretch that out closer to 100 yds--one of Contender's "handgun slings" has helped there--but that's rare. Yeah, I've managed a couple of "keeper" targets now and then, and popped a couple of bunnies with a .22 pistol at "reasonable" ranges, but even there a bit of luck was probably involved.

Rick C
 
Rick Courtright said:
hockeyref said:
You reach a point where it is the mental aspect that hold you back.... Well that and those dang turkeys.... LOL
Click to expand...

Hi,

"Turkeys are from h(eck)!"
--A buddy who shot AA for a while in whatever IMHSA's box stock revolver class is...

For myself, handguns are fun shooters, not serious items to wring my hands over. Between bad habits born of decades of competitive shotgunning and eyes that have celebrated their 21st birthday a third time so far, I'm not the shooter who can wring out whatever the gun's truly capable of, so if I can keep "minute of paper plate" out to 50 yds, that's an average day. Some days I can stretch that out closer to 100 yds--one of Contender's "handgun slings" has helped there--but that's rare. Yeah, I've managed a couple of "keeper" targets now and then, and popped a couple of bunnies with a .22 pistol at "reasonable" ranges, but even there a bit of luck was probably involved.

Rick C
Click to expand...

What Rick said +1.
I enjoy my revolvers and Ruger bottom feeders but, with age and physical issues,
I don`t expect super tight groups at any extended range,for me that is 25 yd.
I shoot well enough to be able to tell when my reloads are an improvement or I went the wrong way with the powder charge. If i can keep them all in a 3" bullseye at 25 yd., from sandbags,I am happy. :D
 
Lol sounds like most of us need to get out and not just talk about it so much. I know I used to shoot any where from 2-3 matches a month (IHMSA). Then I shot no less than three guns and up to seven depending on how early I got there and how late they were willing to play.
As to turkey's if I can get all ten of the blasted things with any iron sighted gun I am happy,happy,happy.
I urge you all to get out and try IHMSA or bullseye. I have found bullseye shooting to improve my other shooting skills enormously. Even with a red dot it still teaches one follow through and breathing. These two things alone will help ones ability in many other shooting sports. And, of course iron sights will help you with sight alignment.
For the most part I have found both groups to be a very helpful bunch.
Jeff
 
I too went with the IHMSA standards of sub MOA for single shot and 2 moa for wheel gun. Shooting steel will teach you a ton about how to make a handgun work. I haven't shot silhouette since about 2004 but when I stopped I was still shooting INT-S in both BB and SB. (none of those silly scope games either. :lol:)


I did use one short cut for my loads. I would fine the combination that gave me a the most lee way in my loading. As in13-15.5grs of xxx in 7TCU would stay from .5 moa to about .8 moa. Versus a load that had to be within .5 grains to be accurate. Guys would question my loading practice of not spending the time to get nothing but .5 moa, or less, for everything. My reply was I can spend hours loading .5 moa ammo, or I can spend hours shooting. Since I shoot standing and have a 3 moa wobble that .3 change in ammo means nothing.


Also, like Jeff from April to September it was two to five matches a month. Early on I was shooting three or four guns per match but by '85 I pretty much dropped all my freestyle shooting. A few freestyle revolver matches here and there, but standing was what tripped my trigger.
 
It is a darn fun game. Beats punching holes in paper. I am Int or AAA in most classes. I would get a gun get a load worked for it, shoot a few 40's and then go to another gun. I always tinkered with a different caliber. Then went back to the 30-20 as I believe it to be the most universal cartridge out there for IHMSA. One single shot pistol in this case and you can shoot five classes with a little bit of gear. Yeah other cartridges can do it but not near the bullet selection.
Sorry for the high jack to the OP. It does pertain in a round about way
 
I'd LIKE to see every bullet from every load in every gun make cloverleafs at whatever range I happened to be shooting BUT I've shot enough to realize that is neither possible or necessary. A group 1/2 the size of the target zone at the maximum range of the expected shot is adequate. I hunt deer with rifle/ammo combinations suitable to hit the ribcage at 300 yards 100% of the time (if held properly) BUT I wouldn't try a neck shot with some over 100 yards. Others are good enough to take whatever shot I might want at the full 300 yards. Experience says some combinations simply aren't tack drivers and nothing can change that. Keep those within their "capability zone" and all will be fine.
 
I like my revolvers to shoot way better than I can. That way I can always strive to be better. Not knowing how your gun shoots (with given ammo) and then trying to shoot accurately is an exercise in futility. For off-hand shooting I like to see 3" groups at 25Ys (or better of course). So first thing is finding a good 'combination' that shoots very well, and then I know all misses are 'me'.
 
I believe Ross Seyfried said a good sixgun should be able to shoot 1" groups for every 10 yds, so, you can do the math, 2" at 20 yds, 3" at 30 yds, etc. Lots of variables though & he was a former world champion.
Back in the late 70's when the eyes were good I loved shooting handgun silhouette, now that I'm 70 the eyes are gone & using iron sights is very tough at any distance. As for shooting tin cans at 250 yds, I know I would not be able to even see the can, much less hit it. I'd say I'm accurate if I hit & not accurate if I miss, but its still better than using a rifle.

Dick
 
Good points sixshot.
Many of us are a bit "older" & our eyes just aren't what they used to be. As such, we are forced to accept a bit of lesser accuracy than what the handguns are capable of, (sometimes!)
 
sixshot said:
but its still better than using a rifle.

Dick
Click to expand...

I agree, Dick! But I did just buy a 45-70 guide gun to play with. Everyone needs a mortar gun, don't they? :mrgreen:
 
contender said:
Good points sixshot.
Many of us are a bit "older" & our eyes just aren't what they used to be. As such, we are forced to accept a bit of lesser accuracy than what the handguns are capable of, (sometimes!)
Click to expand...


+1
 
WIL TERRY said:
ALL OF 'EM in one hole at twenty five yards. Correspondingly so out to one hundred yards. WE plink tincans at 250. Do NOT hit a lot but we scare the 'ell out of 'em every shot.
And so it goes...
Click to expand...

OK, so now I have to ask - where is Single Chute? I was born and raised in SD, have been all over the state in my 62 years, and have never heard of Single Chute. Mapquest doesn't know either. :mrgreen:
 
hockeyref said:
I am pulling out and shooting a gun that has been in the safe for nearly 20 years

Contender - I actually miss IHMSA .... I do remember being pissed a bunch of times for my own lack of concentration after missing one of the first 5 chickens then running the table.... IIRC, I was AAA Unlimited and AAA Prod\Revolver but don't hold me to that revolver class til I find an old classification book. Prob AA off my hind legs but don't recall...
Click to expand...

We miss you too. We miss a bunch of you cause IHMSA is about to go away despite a some seriously dedicated individuals who are trying to keep it alive. Big bore is just about non-existent in our area but we are excited that a new small bore range is being built in Goldonna, Louisiana. So dig out that old handgun. If enough of us do it we may bring some life back into the old girl yet

Now for the thread. Accuracy is a critter dead on the ground, a steel chicken, pig, turkey, or ram knocked off the stand OR oneself and or a loved one safe
 
I don't feel worthy to even post on this thread--most of you are like Gods to me! If I can shoot a 3" group with my 41 mag BH at 30 yds--that's VERY good for me--and that's using a barrel rest and 2x optic!

I guess my technique must be super bad--heck, if I even think a shot might waver--even if I got the bull's steady in my cross-hairs--that shot is going to fly 5 or 6" wide! : )
 
triggerpull said:
I don't feel worthy to even post on this thread--most of you are like Gods to me! If I can shoot a 3" group with my 41 mag BH at 30 yds--that's VERY good for me--and that's using a barrel rest and 2x optic!

I guess my technique must be super bad--heck, if I even think a shot might waver--even if I got the bull's steady in my cross-hairs--that shot is going to fly 5 or 6" wide! : )
Click to expand...

I have a .41 bh mag. Just a sugg, but you might want to get some low power semi wadcutters for practice sessions. A lot less recoil. Standard loads may be causing you to anticipate the shot or flinch, and low power could help you overcome that.

Here's where to get some. http://www.georgia-arms.com/new-41-rem-mag-210gr-lead-semi-wadcutter/ . They're out of stock at the moment, but something to keep in mind.

Alternatively, have someone else load 2 or 3 in your gun without telling you which chamber(s) are hot, and take a video of a session or 2. If you're anticipating or flinching you'll know when you pull the trigger on an empty chamber. :)

Or load 2, and spin the cylinder without looking. Russian roulette style, except don't point it at your head :wink: .
 
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