Self Defense Bullet Type Discussion

[Umbra_the_Wolf]

I'm looking for fact-based and experience-based opinions. After creating one topic where people told me that in my Tiny House I ought to learn to hip-fire my Ruger American 45 to stop a burgler 10' or less away from me (versus practicing at targets 20-25 yards away), I wanted to finally ask my last self-defense question involving the amazing 45 caliber bullet and VERY close self-defense kind of situation. As I had a burglary attempt by a man who ran away when I shouted before he finished picking my lock alerting him that I was indeed home, it came to mind that if he wanted to kill the hell out of me he could have if he wanted to. That's what prompted me to buy a gun. I know HapKiDo however if even Bruce Lee was killed by a gun (and even on accident) then I'd still rather than a gun in such a situation.

This all in mind regarding my very tiny adorable house that attracts far too much attention than I prefer, I just wanted to make sure that my bullet choice for very close self-defense was both reliable and effective with as little trade-off as possible.

Here are the facts I've seen so far
1) Jacketed Hollow Points "should" expand after initial penetration, but don't always. Still true?
2) JHP's for 45 Autos like my Ruger American sometime don't feed well. I've already experienced this multiple times but it may be my gun is brand new. However, 200 FMJ's at the range fired flawlessly
3) JHP's are said to sometimes have less than reliable penetration and expansion performance on targets wearing thicker clothing like winter jackets. Some guys laughed at this flat-out saying they had killed deer with their 45 handgun loaded with JHP's, making it through the tough hide without an issue, and others still point out that stats still sometimes show less than reliable performance. I've heard very convincing arguments from both sides, and I mean VERY convincing
4) Facts seem to conflict regarding a (230gr.) 45 JHP @830FPS in particular having the needed muzzle velocity to reliably and deeply penetrate THEN expand. Some have even show premature expansion or no expansion at all (effectively not even penetrating either sometimes). I've read studies that showed a JHP's 230gr. @930 or more FPS offer much better penetration and expansion.

#4 above is why I've decided to make this about +P JHP vs plain old FMJ, both at 230gr.

FMJ's
1) Many say that a FMJ has been a reliable killer-bullet for over 96 years and that JHP's are even necessary. This is an obvious fact!
2) FMJ's are far more likely to feed better/more reliably than hollow points
3) BUT overpenetration is a big issue, it seems. Some say the wound channel is more important than a JHP's "less channel with a larger diameter" wound
4) And last but not least, stopping power. I've seen it so many times that people say a FMJ kills a man but doesn't stop a man, while a JHP can stop him dead in his tracks. They often say you don't want to be shot or stabbed in the 10-15 seconds it takes for a man to bleed out because you chose an FMJ over a JHP. I find this to be more B.S. because who would stop shooting after 1 or 2 bullets? I would opt to keep shooting til he's face down so I'm not sure this makes much sense unless your handgun only has a 3 bullet capacity lol

I'd honestly like to know what is best and if these stats and opinions are tried and true.

Remember that I'm comparing +P JHP's 230gr. @950 FPS vs 230gr. FMJ @835 FPS. The topic is about reliability and proper bullet expansion of hollow points if they have a great enough velocity to reliably expand in the attacker. So what do you guys think?

Thanks guys, and don't forget the polls

 

[GunnyGene]

Click over to Youtube. Search for this ".45 acp fbi test" . Watch some of the videos.

For your convenience.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=.45+acp+fbi+test

 

[Umbra_the_Wolf]

Click over to Youtube. Search for this ".45 acp fbi test" . Watch some of the videos.

For your convenience.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=.45+acp+fbi+test

Yeah I was already looking at Federal HST! Very good!
So is +P even needed?

 

[GunnyGene]

Click over to Youtube. Search for this ".45 acp fbi test" . Watch some of the videos.

For your convenience.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=.45+acp+fbi+test

Yeah I was already looking at Federal HST! Very good!
So is +P even needed?

A couple of points:

1. You go to war with the weapons (and ammo) that you have, not what you wish you had.

2. All these comparison tests of similar calibers (FBI and back yard) are just so much diddling around the margins of terminal performance, not gross differences. Do you really care if one bullet expands 1/4" more than another or penetrates 1" more? I guarantee the guy on the receiving end won't.

3. Reliability counts more than anything else. If it don't cycle and go bang every time, nothing subsequent matters. Same goes for your reliability in handling the gun and the situation.

4. Fact: More people have been killed by .22lr than any other caliber (excluding military combat).

You may find this USMC Pistol Marksmanship Manual of some use. It's specific to the 9mm for much of it, but some sections I think you will find useful.

PDF Download

http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/MCRP%208-10B.3.pdf?ver=2017-03-27-105117-183

 

[Umbra_the_Wolf]

So my current 830fps 230gr. Jhp bullets are fine? All this discussion by millions of gun owners is just diddling?

Honestly, will the +p help because for $24 I can get 50 and just be comfortable knowing wiser people said and know it'll be better

 

[GunnyGene]

So my current 830fps 230gr. Jhp bullets are fine? All this discussion by millions of gun owners is just diddling?

Honestly, will the +p help because for $24 I can get 50 and just be comfortable knowing wiser people said and know it'll be better

If you're expecting certainty about this you won't find it. It doesn't exist. Assuming that you buy from a reputable manufacturer, your 230gr jhp will get the job done, if you do your part. +P will only add perhaps 100fps to muzzle velocity, and a small increase in delivered energy which will also increase felt recoil. Is that worth an extra few dollars to you? You are the only one who can make this decision.

I have several handguns and long guns in a variety of calibers, etc., from .22lr to 12 gauge Brenneke slugs. You know which I'd choose in a SD or HD situation that demanded shooting someone? The one that I happened to be carrying or that was closest to hand, and I wouldn't give a rat's patoot about +P, size, or projectile design.

 

[Umbra_the_Wolf]

I just realized that the +p shoots a 647mph bullet while the normal jhp fires at 565 mph. 100fps seemed like a decent difference but when I converted it to a familiar unit of velocity it wasn't even 90mph difference. Lol. Why are these even bring sold? Because dumb people like me I think. As if 100mph would do anything meaningful if 600mph wasn't already enough. My gun handles +p just fine according to the manual and is rated for 25000 rounds using +p. I guess now I know why. There's no difference.

 

[GunnyGene]

I just realized that the +p shoots a 647mph bullet while the normal jhp fires at 565 mph. 100fps seemed like a decent difference but when I converted it to a familiar unit of velocity it wasn't even 90mph difference. Lol. Why are these even bring sold? Because dumb people like me I think. As if 100mph would do anything meaningful if 600mph wasn't already enough. My gun handles +p just fine according to the manual and is rated for 25000 rounds using +p. I guess now I know why. There's no difference.

You meant FPS of course. :wink: The one place where FPS is significant is in long range rifle shooting @ 500yds to 2000yds , and that has more to do with trajectory and accuracy than anything else.

 

[Captain America]

I carry a .38+P LCR, before that is was an SP101 so I have always carried .38+P ammo. I've tried all kinds of self defense ammo over the years but since I use a revolver I don't have to worry about feeding issues. A couple of years ago I decided to shoot a bunch of different types of ammo through some denim into a 55 gallon drum of water, the results were surprising. Most of the expensive, designer ammo with cool names expanded fine, however, regular old Winchester White Box was amazing. The bullet is a semi-jacketed hollow point with a flat nose, the expansion was huge and the bullet retained all of it's original weight. I had them so I could practice with +P's on the cheap but from that moment on I've only carried the Winchesters because of my moderately scientific test and the fact that I've never had one not go bang in thousands of rounds. FWIW, my wife carries a .22LR, you'll be fine with any .45 ammo you choose but try not to get too excited about the latest, greatest, really expensive bullet design, pick something that functions flawlessly in your gun and goes bang every time.

 

[rammerjammer]

Hollowpoints plain and simple.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

 

[DGW1949]

So my current 830fps 230gr. Jhp bullets are fine? All this discussion by millions of gun owners is just diddling?

Honestly, will the +p help because for $24 I can get 50 and just be comfortable knowing wiser people said and know it'll be better

Answering in the order you asked...

Assuming that it runs reliably in the gun, your present ammo is about as "fine" as anything else. After all, we're talking about a .45ACP here, not some sort of pocket-pistol caliber which actually does need all the help it can get.

Yes, you are right...90% of the answers one gets in relation to the types of questions you are asking are in fact, "just diddling"...because most of the time, the responders are merely repeating things they've either been told themselves, or things that they have read themselves. Point being that good intentions aside, most of 'em don't really know any more than you do when it comes to things like fighting for your life, shooting bad guys, or the effects of handgun fire in the real world.

Maybe a +P load would "be better", but perhaps not...it depends.
To start with, you have to know with absolute certainty that the ammo you pick can be counted on to reliably function in your particular gun time after time without fail.
You also have to know if you as the shooter, can physically handle the extra recoil, noise and blast. In other words, if it hurts you to shoot it, or if you find that you can't control the gun in a safe manner, or in a manner which allows for fast follow up shots...then +P ammo is not for you.
Plus, sometimes hollow point ammo works as advertised, sometimes not. In fact, in some situations, HP ammo may not be as good as plain ball ammo even if it does "open up but not blow up"...so who can say ahead of time which is best?...Myself, I don't have a crystal ball, so certainly not me.

Basically, what all of this sort of stuff comes down to is this;
Down is down and dead is dead...and the two things which have the most to do with that are shot placement and penetration. All the rest of what usually gets argued over, while not meaningless, can be argued 'till the cows come home without consensus...simply because there's way too many "buts" and "what if's" involved.
You can take that to the bank.

DGW

 

[s4s4u]

3. Reliability counts more than anything else. If it don't cycle and go bang every time, nothing subsequent matters. Same goes for your reliability in handling the gun and the situation.

This ^^^^^^

 

[s4s4u]

3. Reliability counts more than anything else. If it don't cycle and go bang every time, nothing subsequent matters. Same goes for your reliability in handling the gun and the situation.

This ^^^^^^

 

[Umbra_the_Wolf]

As the OP, I will simply say that for $24 I can get 50 +P Federal Premium HST Jacketed Hollow Points. I will go to the range and officially test my current 50 Sig Sauer non-+P JHP's and if they shoot fine without any FTF's then I will get the Federals and just "whatever" this whole subject. As I'd get 50 of the Federal HST +P JHP's, I can shoot 19 safely and still have 20 for my two mags +1 in the chamber. As a whole, I'd be confident in toting them around in my Ruger American 45 if I can waste an entire box of two types if JHP's without a single issue. As one other man said though, if I have a single issue... forget them all.

Everyone posted very good arguments and I appreciate the conclusion to this discussion. As my second topic, I am glad I came on for advice yet again! Thanks everyone! Now it's time to practice hip-firing at 10' and testing JHP ammo reliability in my particular gun

 

[GunnyGene]

Now it's time to practice hip-firing at 10' and testing JHP ammo reliability in my particular gun

Be careful. It's easy to shoot yourself in the foot with this. Keep your booger hook off the bang switch till the muzzle is pointed where you want the bullet to go I'd recommend starting with draw and dry fire a few hundred times before you load that gun up. Go slow, speed will come later.

 

[Umbra_the_Wolf]

Now it's time to practice hip-firing at 10' and testing JHP ammo reliability in my particular gun

Be careful. It's easy to shoot yourself in the foot with this. Keep your booger hook off the bang switch till the muzzle is pointed where you want the bullet to go I'd recommend starting with draw and dry fire a few hundred times before you load that gun up. Go slow, speed will come later.

That's excellent advice. I practice dry firing every day to help train my finger not to pull the gun to the side with the trigger pull, I'll practice unloaded draw+dry fire til I go to the range

 

[Umbra_the_Wolf]

So guys I wanted to simply say based on the cost and obvious desire I have to keep safe, I'm going to get a box of 50 rounds of Winchester's +P 230gr JHP Ranger T-Series. I am going to fire my 50 Sig Sauer 230gr. JHP V-Crowns at the range to make sure my gun feeds hollow points smoothly (reviews said it sure would) and if so, gonna sleep well with the +P in my gun. It's on sale for $29.99 + $6s/h so I can't resist

 

[Taterman]

3. Reliability counts more than anything else. If it don't cycle and go bang every time, nothing subsequent matters. Same goes for your reliability in handling the gun and the situation.

Most definitely. Use the FMJ since you know they're not likely to jam.

Edit: Another thing to consider is what is it that makes your house such a target? Not sure where you live, but maybe more outdoor lighting would help. You might consider getting some camera or motion detectors. I have this one and it even picks up mice. It's mounted only a foot or two off the ground though. There are always 20% off coupons for them too. http://www.harborfreight.com/wireless-driveway-alert-system-93068.html

 

[Umbra_the_Wolf]

3. Reliability counts more than anything else. If it don't cycle and go bang every time, nothing subsequent matters. Same goes for your reliability in handling the gun and the situation.

Most definitely. Use the FMJ since you know they're not likely to jam.

Edit: Another thing to consider is what is it that makes your house such a target? Not sure where you live, but maybe more outdoor lighting would help. You might consider getting some camera or motion detectors. I have this one and it even picks up mice. It's mounted only a foot or two off the ground though. There are always 20% off coupons for them too. http://www.harborfreight.com/wireless-driveway-alert-system-93068.html

I live in a log cabin tiny house with a "Hobbit" door. I'm renting on a friend's property in a packed neighborhood in a rough and tumble area of Arizona. I had an attempted break in and decided martial arts was not a good defense for a guy 10' away with a gun ready to take all I have. I was lucky he was the kind of burglar hoping no one's home versus the one looking for a scuffle. I bought a Walther PPX M1 (such an awesome gun) but decided it utterly lacked the kind of whallop I wanted. My wife has a S&W Shield 9mm under her pillow and my Ruger American 45acp is holstered by my head on the side of my bed

 

[Taterman]

Sounds like you're well prepared now. Stay vigilant and safe there sir.

 

[blume357]

Find and take a good Defensive Hand Gun Class... there is no comparison to 'self training' and having a coach.

Only other comment I can make is Bruce Lee did not die from a gun shot... that was his son Brandon Lee.... and this was the fault of the 'Gun Wanglers' on the movie set... squib load not discovered and then the gun was loaded with blanks....

 

[s4s4u]

squib load not discovered and then the gun was loaded with blanks....

Actually is wasn't a "squib" but rather a prop cartridge with a plastic bullet that they load in a revolver so that it looks loaded from the front of the gun. When they unloaded the dummies to load blanks one of those plastic bullets dislodged from the case and stuck in one of the chambers, and was propelled by a blank in the next scene. Just a case of someone not paying attention.

 

[FergusonTO35]

If it was me, I would load up some lead slugs with a big flat point at around 800 fps. Cheap, easy to shoot, accurate, and will put the smack down quite nicely. If going with factory ammo I would just stick with quality FMJ.

 

[Umbra_the_Wolf]

Unfortunately I'm in a tiny house and if I defend myself instantly when a man breaks in, that gives me a maximum 10' to put him down. Chances are I'll have less than that since people come while sleeping. An FMJ just won't do the trick and chances are good still it'll pass through and hit my house lol

I decided on Winchester +P Ranger T-Series hollow points 45 AUTO 230gr. @990 FPS with a 1" full expansion at a perfect 15" penetration but of course that's ballistics gel, I can only hope it really mimics real life. Regardless, enough bullets should make a guy stop cold if I aim for the heart and at that range I should be dead on. Out of that 10' I mean my arm extends 2' anyway so that's like 8' lol I chose it because it penetrated ballistics gel just right with the largest hollow point flattening of any bullet, totaling 1" in size. That should should stop anyone. Most people on here seem to think so long as the bullet doesn't overpenetrate it'll do serious damage regardless, and hollow points are just the way I'm makign sure that doesn't happen. My wife has a 9mm as well under her pillow with 147 gr. hollow points so reaction time I think is more crucial than some teeny tiny differences in caliber or bullet tech. That's why I posted this, I wanted to know what I know now everyone has been extremely helpful

 

[Umbra_the_Wolf]

If it was me, I would load up some lead slugs with a big flat point at around 800 fps. Cheap, easy to shoot, accurate, and will put the smack down quite nicely. If going with factory ammo I would just stick with quality FMJ.

Lead slugs? Sounds cool. Didn't catch that on my initial read. Are they like shotgun slugs or something? Because that'd be really crazy cool if so. At 10' velocity dropoff won't matter. I'd have gotten a shotgun except there's sooooooooo little room that a 2' barrel just is not going to work. There's no where to put it either.

Maybe paste a URL to what you're talking about so I can read up on it and decide.

 

[Yawn]

I think you made the right choice for a centerfire pistoal, other than maybe a 10mm or a 357sig. And i think you made the correct choice in bullet. Yes, the hollow points need to feed well... but if they dont, the gun is crap. This is 2017, and a newly minted firesrm should handle a steady diet ofnsuch ammo. I have an sr45. Hollow points feed just fine! I used the winchester pdx rounds. Size counts when trying to stop a threat, and anyone who says otherwise robs ly didnt do well in their highschool physics and geometry classes. I though, have better accuracy without the extra punch in the round that a plus p gives. Hopefully we will move to a larger house and then i want an AR with a piston recoil in the stock.... but that round would pass throigh 9 different residences in our condos after passing through a bad guy who broke into my house.

I will say this though... it sounds like your next self defense investment might need to be a new neighborhood

 

[Umbra_the_Wolf]

I think you made the right choice for a centerfire pistoal, other than maybe a 10mm or a 357sig. And i think you made the correct choice in bullet. Yes, the hollow points need to feed well... but if they dont, the gun is crap. This is 2017, and a newly minted firesrm should handle a steady diet ofnsuch ammo. I have an sr45. Hollow points feed just fine! I used the winchester pdx rounds. Size counts when trying to stop a threat, and anyone who says otherwise robs ly didnt do well in their highschool physics and geometry classes. I though, have better accuracy without the extra punch in the round that a plus p gives. Hopefully we will move to a larger house and then i want an AR with a piston recoil in the stock.... but that round would pass throigh 9 different residences in our condos after passing through a bad guy who broke into my house.

I will say this though... it sounds like your next self defense investment might need to be a new neighborhood

hahah yeah, I'm able to move my tiny house where ever I want to, so long as I can find parking. This is the first time I've parked IN an actual city but only did because the neighborhood seemed so nice. My tiny house is not allowed in RV parks for various reasons I don't care to get into but I hate them anyway. The neighborhood I'm in is actually quiet and nice, however it's when stragglers pass through that it can get rough and tumble even though it's supposed to be a closed neighborhood. As soon as I find a good spot I'm leaving. For a closed neighborhood though there sure are a lot of weirdos walking through at night.

I set up a security light system 4 weeks ago so no one can approach anymore without a blinding white light. And I parked my wife's car cock-eyed in front of the nose of the house so there's a twisty-turny way to get up to the front door and re-positioned my front door toward a massive 14' tall by 35' long row of Oleanders and allowed the Oleanders to absolutely overrun the front door. It's like a little Oleander jungle at the doorway lol. No one is going to casually approach my door. The noise they'd make and the light would be too much. The light is so blinding in that little path to the door I'm certain they'd have to be intent on murder to continue onward to the door itself after rustling all those bushes. Finally I installed a latch since I don't have a deadbolt so if anyone tries to pick the handle lock this time they'll still have to either snip the latch or attempt to yank the door open like a lunatic. And then there are two people with guns the moment they enter lol.

It'd be a very sad night for the average burglar. I still intend to install a deadbolt but my door around its rim is stainless steel so my Rigid is grossly unsuited to get through it, but I'll find a way.

 

[GunnyGene]

hahah yeah, I'm able to move my tiny house where ever I want to, so long as I can find parking. This is the first time I've parked IN an actual city but only did because the neighborhood seemed so nice. My tiny house is not allowed in RV parks for various reasons I don't care to get into but I hate them anyway. The neighborhood I'm in is actually quiet and nice, however it's when stragglers pass through that it can get rough and tumble even though it's supposed to be a closed neighborhood. As soon as I find a good spot I'm leaving. For a closed neighborhood though there sure are a lot of weirdos walking through at night.

I set up a security light system 4 weeks ago so no one can approach anymore without a blinding white light. And I parked my wife's car cock-eyed in front of the nose of the house so there's a twisty-turny way to get up to the front door and re-positioned my front door toward a massive 14' tall by 35' long row of Oleanders and allowed the Oleanders to absolutely overrun the front door. It's like a little Oleander jungle at the doorway lol. No one is going to casually approach my door. The noise they'd make and the light would be too much. The light is so blinding in that little path to the door I'm certain they'd have to be intent on murder to continue onward to the door itself after rustling all those bushes. Finally I installed a latch since I don't have a deadbolt so if anyone tries to pick the handle lock this time they'll still have to either snip the latch or attempt to yank the door open like a lunatic. And then there are two people with guns the moment they enter lol.

It'd be a very sad night for the average burglar. I still intend to install a deadbolt but my door around its rim is stainless steel so my Rigid is grossly unsuited to get through it, but I'll find a way.

Don't want to derail this thread, but I've seen these "Tiny" houses on TV a couple times. Never saw one up close tho. I couldn't live in one, but I know they have a following. Anyway, I think you're the first I've ever heard of that mentioned home security of any kind, let alone firearms. I suspect you might have some unique insight into the challenges presented with these that we could all learn from so I'm hoping you might start another thread about specific security & safety issues for these.

 

[Umbra_the_Wolf]

hahah yeah, I'm able to move my tiny house where ever I want to, so long as I can find parking. This is the first time I've parked IN an actual city but only did because the neighborhood seemed so nice. My tiny house is not allowed in RV parks for various reasons I don't care to get into but I hate them anyway. The neighborhood I'm in is actually quiet and nice, however it's when stragglers pass through that it can get rough and tumble even though it's supposed to be a closed neighborhood. As soon as I find a good spot I'm leaving. For a closed neighborhood though there sure are a lot of weirdos walking through at night.

I set up a security light system 4 weeks ago so no one can approach anymore without a blinding white light. And I parked my wife's car cock-eyed in front of the nose of the house so there's a twisty-turny way to get up to the front door and re-positioned my front door toward a massive 14' tall by 35' long row of Oleanders and allowed the Oleanders to absolutely overrun the front door. It's like a little Oleander jungle at the doorway lol. No one is going to casually approach my door. The noise they'd make and the light would be too much. The light is so blinding in that little path to the door I'm certain they'd have to be intent on murder to continue onward to the door itself after rustling all those bushes. Finally I installed a latch since I don't have a deadbolt so if anyone tries to pick the handle lock this time they'll still have to either snip the latch or attempt to yank the door open like a lunatic. And then there are two people with guns the moment they enter lol.

It'd be a very sad night for the average burglar. I still intend to install a deadbolt but my door around its rim is stainless steel so my Rigid is grossly unsuited to get through it, but I'll find a way.

Don't want to derail this thread, but I've seen these "Tiny" houses on TV a couple times. Never saw one up close tho. I couldn't live in one, but I know they have a following. Anyway, I think you're the first I've ever heard of that mentioned home security of any kind, let alone firearms. I suspect you might have some unique insight into the challenges presented with these that we could all learn from so I'm hoping you might start another thread about specific security & safety issues for these.

That's actually an excellent idea. A tiny house has been quite the learning experience. I'd best take a video for ya, they are the most liberating way to live without being an RVer or homeless

hahah yeah, I'm able to move my tiny house where ever I want to, so long as I can find parking. This is the first time I've parked IN an actual city but only did because the neighborhood seemed so nice. My tiny house is not allowed in RV parks for various reasons I don't care to get into but I hate them anyway. The neighborhood I'm in is actually quiet and nice, however it's when stragglers pass through that it can get rough and tumble even though it's supposed to be a closed neighborhood. As soon as I find a good spot I'm leaving. For a closed neighborhood though there sure are a lot of weirdos walking through at night.

I set up a security light system 4 weeks ago so no one can approach anymore without a blinding white light. And I parked my wife's car cock-eyed in front of the nose of the house so there's a twisty-turny way to get up to the front door and re-positioned my front door toward a massive 14' tall by 35' long row of Oleanders and allowed the Oleanders to absolutely overrun the front door. It's like a little Oleander jungle at the doorway lol. No one is going to casually approach my door. The noise they'd make and the light would be too much. The light is so blinding in that little path to the door I'm certain they'd have to be intent on murder to continue onward to the door itself after rustling all those bushes. Finally I installed a latch since I don't have a deadbolt so if anyone tries to pick the handle lock this time they'll still have to either snip the latch or attempt to yank the door open like a lunatic. And then there are two people with guns the moment they enter lol.

It'd be a very sad night for the average burglar. I still intend to install a deadbolt but my door around its rim is stainless steel so my Rigid is grossly unsuited to get through it, but I'll find a way.

Don't want to derail this thread, but I've seen these "Tiny" houses on TV a couple times. Never saw one up close tho. I couldn't live in one, but I know they have a following. Anyway, I think you're the first I've ever heard of that mentioned home security of any kind, let alone firearms. I suspect you might have some unique insight into the challenges presented with these that we could all learn from so I'm hoping you might start another thread about specific security & safety issues for these.

 

[SR1911SHOOTER]

I'm looking for fact-based and experience-based opinions. After creating one topic where people told me that in my Tiny House I ought to learn to hip-fire my Ruger American 45 to stop a burgler 10' or less away from me (versus practicing at targets 20-25 yards away), I wanted to finally ask my last self-defense question involving the amazing 45 caliber bullet and VERY close self-defense kind of situation. As I had a burglary attempt by a man who ran away when I shouted before he finished picking my lock alerting him that I was indeed home, it came to mind that if he wanted to kill the hell out of me he could have if he wanted to. That's what prompted me to buy a gun. I know HapKiDo however if even Bruce Lee was killed by a gun (and even on accident) then I'd still rather than a gun in such a situation.

This all in mind regarding my very tiny adorable house that attracts far too much attention than I prefer, I just wanted to make sure that my bullet choice for very close self-defense was both reliable and effective with as little trade-off as possible.

Here are the facts I've seen so far
1) Jacketed Hollow Points "should" expand after initial penetration, but don't always. Still true?
2) JHP's for 45 Autos like my Ruger American sometime don't feed well. I've already experienced this multiple times but it may be my gun is brand new. However, 200 FMJ's at the range fired flawlessly
3) JHP's are said to sometimes have less than reliable penetration and expansion performance on targets wearing thicker clothing like winter jackets. Some guys laughed at this flat-out saying they had killed deer with their 45 handgun loaded with JHP's, making it through the tough hide without an issue, and others still point out that stats still sometimes show less than reliable performance. I've heard very convincing arguments from both sides, and I mean VERY convincing
4) Facts seem to conflict regarding a (230gr.) 45 JHP @830FPS in particular having the needed muzzle velocity to reliably and deeply penetrate THEN expand. Some have even show premature expansion or no expansion at all (effectively not even penetrating either sometimes). I've read studies that showed a JHP's 230gr. @930 or more FPS offer much better penetration and expansion.

#4 above is why I've decided to make this about +P JHP vs plain old FMJ, both at 230gr.

FMJ's
1) Many say that a FMJ has been a reliable killer-bullet for over 96 years and that JHP's are even necessary. This is an obvious fact!
2) FMJ's are far more likely to feed better/more reliably than hollow points
3) BUT overpenetration is a big issue, it seems. Some say the wound channel is more important than a JHP's "less channel with a larger diameter" wound
4) And last but not least, stopping power. I've seen it so many times that people say a FMJ kills a man but doesn't stop a man, while a JHP can stop him dead in his tracks. They often say you don't want to be shot or stabbed in the 10-15 seconds it takes for a man to bleed out because you chose an FMJ over a JHP. I find this to be more B.S. because who would stop shooting after 1 or 2 bullets? I would opt to keep shooting til he's face down so I'm not sure this makes much sense unless your handgun only has a 3 bullet capacity lol

I'd honestly like to know what is best and if these stats and opinions are tried and true.

Remember that I'm comparing +P JHP's 230gr. @950 FPS vs 230gr. FMJ @835 FPS. The topic is about reliability and proper bullet expansion of hollow points if they have a great enough velocity to reliably expand in the attacker. So what do you guys think?

Thanks guys, and don't forget the polls

Wolf,
I have several different carry weapons and a couple of "Home Defense" weapons. Both semi auto and wheel.
All my self defense ammo is Ruger ARX Polycase. It is frangible, Plus P+ and best yet, it feeds reliably in all of my
pistols. Would not carry any other type.
Blackie


https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/10/23/tested-the-polycase-arx-bullet/