LuckenbachTexas
Buckeye
I think its pretty darn cowardly to begrudge a fella for complaining about the workmanship quality of his gun just because this particular issue isn't important to some of y'all.
Ruger/Lipsey's Quality Falling Fast ?
- Thread starter mohavesam
- Start date
You still fail spectacularly to understand.
Nobody begrudges anybody for his dissatisfaction about the workmanship or quality of his gun.
We're not saying anybody should accept poor quality.
What we ARE saying is JUST FLIPPIN' BLAME THE MANUFACTURER THAT CAUSED THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NOT LIPSEY'S!!!!!
Can't really put it any plainer than that.
Denis
Nobody begrudges anybody for his dissatisfaction about the workmanship or quality of his gun.
We're not saying anybody should accept poor quality.
What we ARE saying is JUST FLIPPIN' BLAME THE MANUFACTURER THAT CAUSED THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NOT LIPSEY'S!!!!!
Can't really put it any plainer than that.
Denis
SweetWilliam
Buckeye
An easy fix would be if your not happy with Ruger Firearms, don't buy anymore Ruger Firearms.
The extrapolations in some posts here are baffling.
Who said Lipsey's does NOT want the issues fixed?
Who said they DON'T want Ruger to improve overall quality?
Just put the responsibility for a lesser-level of quality where it belongs.
Not on Lipsey's, not on Davidson's, not on any other distributor.
You order a brand new car with a specific set of features, and you firebomb the dealer who gets it in for you if the stereo doesn't work?
Blame the maker!
Denis
Who said Lipsey's does NOT want the issues fixed?
Who said they DON'T want Ruger to improve overall quality?
Just put the responsibility for a lesser-level of quality where it belongs.
Not on Lipsey's, not on Davidson's, not on any other distributor.
You order a brand new car with a specific set of features, and you firebomb the dealer who gets it in for you if the stereo doesn't work?
Blame the maker!
Denis
PriseDeFer
Single-Sixer
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2014
- Messages
- 450
"I don't expect my convenience store to examine each can of Dr. Pepper that I buy for quality control as they come off the truck." I would if the can cost me 400+ dollars.
When we bought a $1500 refrigerator, it came in a box.
We did not expect either the store or their distributor to take it out, hook it up, run circuit checks, run water through the ice-maker, and check each compartment to make sure each separate temp control was operating within its correct range, before we paid for it.
$400 doesn't get you any closer to individual inspection after a product leaves the factory than 60 cents does on a can of soda, or $1500 does on a refrigerator.
Denis
We did not expect either the store or their distributor to take it out, hook it up, run circuit checks, run water through the ice-maker, and check each compartment to make sure each separate temp control was operating within its correct range, before we paid for it.
$400 doesn't get you any closer to individual inspection after a product leaves the factory than 60 cents does on a can of soda, or $1500 does on a refrigerator.
Denis
Not that simple Denis.
Lipsey's should tighten the screws down a little. IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY!!!! Otherwise take your name off the product. They are making money off a product with little or no QC. Last year I had 5 defective Rugers. One cosmetic (All cylinder notches had big chips), and 4 sent into Ruger. Three of the four sent in were "defective beyond repair". One of the replacements was "defective beyond repair" THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE!!! And if Lipsey's is making money off that kind of garbage, I'm sorry, but they have no choice but to SHARE IN THE RESPONSIBILITY!!
Now Denis... I was once a fanboy like you, ready to take the hill for Ruger and plant their flag, but reality bit my heinichen 5 times in one year. Missing work several times to play shipping tag with a bunch of defective garbage.
LuckenbachTexas
Buckeye
Maybe Ruger and the distributors can make this their new slogan...
"God Bless the man with no expectations, for he will never be disappointed"
"God Bless the man with no expectations, for he will never be disappointed"
Ex,
Bud, you have no idea of the ups & downs I've had with Ruger over the years, or you wouldn't even be using the term "fanboy".
I happen to have gone through enough of their guns in the past 40 years to have formed an opinion. When they've got their game on, they can put out some great products. When they don't, they don't.
The bulk of what I've done here in this thread is say blame Ruger for unacceptable quality. In what possible manner can you derive anything even remotely resembling "fanboy" from that?
I do like SOME of their products.
I also like SOME of S&W's.
I also like SOME of Colt's.
I also like SOME of CZ's.
All four companies produce guns I wouldn't own as gifts.
I buy what I need from several makers, depending on what their strengths are.
None of that makes me a "fanboy" of any one maker.
I've said Ruger has a QC problem (and so do other makers).
I've said the odds are more in your favor of getting a good gun from Ruger, through ANY distribution channel, than they are of getting a bad gun (exactly the same as with other makers).
I've said I've returned Rugers as unacceptable.
I've also returned Smiths that were unacceptable, without even firing them.
If that means Ruger fanboy to you, you need a new dictionary.
Regarding Lipsey's, my previous statements stand.
Denis
Bud, you have no idea of the ups & downs I've had with Ruger over the years, or you wouldn't even be using the term "fanboy".
I happen to have gone through enough of their guns in the past 40 years to have formed an opinion. When they've got their game on, they can put out some great products. When they don't, they don't.
The bulk of what I've done here in this thread is say blame Ruger for unacceptable quality. In what possible manner can you derive anything even remotely resembling "fanboy" from that?
I do like SOME of their products.
I also like SOME of S&W's.
I also like SOME of Colt's.
I also like SOME of CZ's.
All four companies produce guns I wouldn't own as gifts.
I buy what I need from several makers, depending on what their strengths are.
None of that makes me a "fanboy" of any one maker.
I've said Ruger has a QC problem (and so do other makers).
I've said the odds are more in your favor of getting a good gun from Ruger, through ANY distribution channel, than they are of getting a bad gun (exactly the same as with other makers).
I've said I've returned Rugers as unacceptable.
I've also returned Smiths that were unacceptable, without even firing them.
If that means Ruger fanboy to you, you need a new dictionary.
Regarding Lipsey's, my previous statements stand.
Denis
RSIno1
Hunter
Jason at Lipsey's said:
They should be right before they go out the door. Not just waiting for the final customer to be your quality control. Lipsey's should be more proactive in demanding a quality product from their supplier.
Sorry Denis, didn't know you went through so much. However, with a clear conscience, you have to hold Lipsey's somewhat responsible. They are making money off the guns giving so many people problems. How are they not responsible? Do all their proceeds go to charity?
I agree RSIno1RSIno1 said:
This is the kinda politically correct garbage that makes me wanna regurgitate. Pumping out crap in the name of a good return policy. Un-American if you ask me. I think Bill Ruger would roll over in his grave if heard this kinda wisdom.
If Davidson's passes on a defective Ruger (or Smith, or Charter, or Hi-Point), do you hold them responsible for defective merchandise?
Regardless of whether Lipsey's contracts for a special run or just buys standard models, you hold Lipsey's equally at fault on anything Ruger didn't get right?
I see no elevated standard of "responsibility" for Lipsey's on special runs they contract for, either beyond any attaching to any other distributor or beyond any attaching to any other product beyond standard models.
And, Lipsey's is in no position to "demand" anything from Ruger.
Ruger builds what Ruger builds, period.
Some of you also seem to be under the erroneous assumption that Lipsey's has not, in fact, discussed QC with Ruger.
Denis
Regardless of whether Lipsey's contracts for a special run or just buys standard models, you hold Lipsey's equally at fault on anything Ruger didn't get right?
I see no elevated standard of "responsibility" for Lipsey's on special runs they contract for, either beyond any attaching to any other distributor or beyond any attaching to any other product beyond standard models.
And, Lipsey's is in no position to "demand" anything from Ruger.
Ruger builds what Ruger builds, period.
Some of you also seem to be under the erroneous assumption that Lipsey's has not, in fact, discussed QC with Ruger.
Denis
"If Davidson's passes on a defective Ruger (or Smith, or Charter, or Hi-Point), do you hold them responsible for defective merchandise?"
Answer: Yes. In fact Davidson's as everyone knows, actually has a lifetime warranty on the Ruger guns and guns from other makers, that they take responsibility for maker's defects. That is a stand-up plan born from customer dedication.
Answer: Yes. In fact Davidson's as everyone knows, actually has a lifetime warranty on the Ruger guns and guns from other makers, that they take responsibility for maker's defects. That is a stand-up plan born from customer dedication.
".....When the distributors take some heat, I'm sure it gets back to the Ruger factory, but whatever we do, we want to keep Jason Cloessner around, and don't be blaming him or Lipsey's for Ruger's QC issues. We'd have no flattop .44 specials and .45 convertibles, Shopkeeper Bearcats, Single Sevens in .327 Magnum, the new adjustable sight Bearcats that are coming soon, and on and on and many more that are coming you don't even know about yet."
You are absolutely right on. No one in the industry is more concerned with a good consumer experience than Jason, Lipsey's and Ruger.
You are absolutely right on. No one in the industry is more concerned with a good consumer experience than Jason, Lipsey's and Ruger.
contender
Ruger Guru
Another big +10 for Denis!
A big +1 for our new member Taloinc!
A big +1 for our new member Taloinc!
LuckenbachTexas
Buckeye
Looks like the thread is a division between realistic expectations and groupies.
Beaver Creek
Single-Sixer
mohavesam said:
Good arguments both ways gentlemen. I'm not sure the comparison with Davidsons is valid though. Davidsons dealer prices are consistently 4-5% higher than Lipseys to cover the lifetime warranty offered except of course for secials and closeouts. I call it mandatory insurance. A good program on their part since I doubt seriously there are near 4-5% returns for any reason and the bean counters have blessed it for bringing in revenue. I believe the only resonsibility any major distributor might have is to use their power to turn the heat up on the manufacturers to produce a quality product.
contender
Ruger Guru
I will readily admit to being a Ruger junkie.
That said,,,, I too own "other brands" and I attend the SHOT Show, I own a gun range, shoot USPSA competition, certified as a Range Officer, Teach NRA classes etc. I have a bit of experience with not just Rugers, but a broad base of firearms.
I also understand business a bit.
In business,,, there is supply & demand.
Lipsey's has been wonderful, especially Jason, at looking at our posts & studying the desires of shooters to bring us guns we want. Remember the 44 Spl Flattop? How many OM 357's were being converted to 44 spl before this happened? Thanks Jason!
Look at the current 327 Single-Seven. Compare it to the .327 Blackhawk. The Blackhawk came out & some folks whined & cried wanting it on the Single-Six sized frame. I found it to be a SWEET shooter,,, but it has been dropped. So, Jason has gotten Ruger to build a 327 on the Single-Six frame size & still people whine. Many want the longer chamber for heavier bullets & are complaining the current bullets they cast for 327's are too long. The issue of pressures was addressed by making it a 7 shot, so folks wouldn't complain about a 5 shot cylinder. (Think bolt notch here.)
My point is no matter what, you can't please everyone all the time. But Jason sure DOES listen to us here & tries to get certain guns built to satisfy our desires. KUDOS Jason! (You have to be realistic from a business standpoint as well as having something built w/o major technical changes by Ruger.)
A lot of what I've seem many folks complain about is the fit or finish of a Ruger. A tool mark here or there. Slight differences in grip to frame fit. These are but two of the "normal" complaints I see. Look at what Bill Ruger built his company on AND the current motto; "Rugged, reliable firearms." Key word here is "RUGGED!" If you want a perfect fit & finish, as mentioned, pony up the extra $$ & buy a FA. I happen to own both & yes, the fit, finish & all are much nicer than a production Ruger. I have had the pleasure of touring the FA plant & know how they spend TIME paying attention to details. (Business 101; time costs money.)
Anybody recall the fact that way back when, Bill had cosmetic issues with frames & parts turning plum colored? Folks complained & returned guns to the factory. Bill re-blued them & returned them. Now, plum guns are desired by many collectors. It cost Bill $$$$ every time one was returned.
Another post in a different section by a new member asked about tooling marks on his gun. He took a blown up, very close up pic of a small mark, that appeared to be highlighted by a marker to see it. Not to belittle the new member, but I looked closely at the fit of the frame to trigger housing. The very faint line where the two mated showed a very custom looking fit. I have seen worse marks on new guns from handling by gun shop bozo than the one he was complaining about. (What about the turn ring on cylinders caused by the same bozo's?)
Next, let's look at the other part of the motto; "reliable." If the gun doesn't shoot, or has functioning issues, by all means, AS NOTED ABOVE, a polite call to Ruger is in order.
Nobody,,,, AND I MEAN NOBODY is perfect. Not me, nor anybody else here. Be honest, to those of you who work in a trade where you have to build or craft something. When you first started out, did you always turn out perfect parts or product every time, all the time? I doubt it. We ALL had to learn how to make our work better. Go to any manufacturing plant & one of the constant issues is "how much scrap or rejects" an employee makes is a serious concern. A new employee will have a higher rate of problems as an experienced person. And sometimes, a part or product gets out the door with a few issues. Ruger does a test firing of each gun, but not 200-500 rounds. Problems arise a lot once a gun gets sold & the owner fires more than a couple of rounds. (Base pin walking is an example.) Often an easy fix, and not as common as many would believe. I happen to own (currently) well north of 100 Ruger SA revolvers. I have added exactly ONE Belt Mtn base pin to a gun. And ONLY because I wanted the custom Keith type look. I have had exactly two guns where the base pin wanted to walk forward. Both times I found the screw loose, causing the spring to be weaker. Once tightened properly, NO issues. I used to think I was getting defective guns because I didn't get base pin walk.
But,,, I can also attest to a few defects in a few guns I got from Ruger.
I'm one of the RARE folks who had a Redhawk barrel separate from the frame. In fact I was told that I was the very first person to have this happen.
Ruger customer service took care of the problem, quite nicely too.
I also had one of the newer SR9 semi's that had barrel peening at the hood.
Once again, customer service took care of things.
I also had one of the early P85's that Ruger recalled & upgraded the safety.
Once again, customer service took care of things.
I currently have a 22/45 MKIII LITE that has had the scope base screws strip out. Using the correct torque as recommended too. I haven't even bothered to contact Ruger yet, as I'm deciding if I want to ship it back or fix it myself.
I'm sure customer service will once again take care of me if I choose to send it back.
I've bought many NM Rugers over the years, and while I've seen grip fit issues, or other minor cosmetic issues on a few, I understand business enough to know that I can not expect a custom gun at a production price.
I also understand that NOBODY in the distributors are going to hand inspect each & every firearm they get in. (Business 101; time costs money.) Besides, who's to say an inspector there is going to know what to look for in all the various models & makes they sell?
Next, many, many consumers want a product they can afford. It all boils down to MONEY.
Many consumers will buy a new gun based a LOT on price, brand be darned. We here on the Ruger Forum, as well as the folks who enjoy Colt's, S&W, SIG, etc all are a bit more brand loyal & know a bit more than the higher percentage of average gun buyers.
I have lost count at the number of people who have bought a Heritage Arms 22 SA revolver over a Ruger. Or a Hi-Point over a Taurus. ALL because of $$$$$$$$$$$$!
And a lot of these same folks are perfectly happy with their purchase, because it's what they could afford. As people can afford more, they look for a bit better gun, (or anything) for that matter.
If we as consumers get any product that is bad, we go back to the manufacturer to get it fixed, not the distributors.
Nobody, & I mean NOBODY produces a man made product perfectly 100% of the time. Only God's creations are perfect, and I see too many folks question some of those as well.
Do I expect a perfect product? No. Do I expect a functioning product? Yes. My expectations are realistic. I pay for a production line assembled product accordingly & I pay for a custom product accordingly.
I buy a Chevy over a Ferrari.
I buy Rugers more often over Freedom Arms.
I understand business & manufacturing.
If I have a problem, I'll got to the maker, not the distributor.
If I want as close to perfection as possible, I'll pay a custom price.
I'm a realist.
That said,,,, I too own "other brands" and I attend the SHOT Show, I own a gun range, shoot USPSA competition, certified as a Range Officer, Teach NRA classes etc. I have a bit of experience with not just Rugers, but a broad base of firearms.
I also understand business a bit.
In business,,, there is supply & demand.
Lipsey's has been wonderful, especially Jason, at looking at our posts & studying the desires of shooters to bring us guns we want. Remember the 44 Spl Flattop? How many OM 357's were being converted to 44 spl before this happened? Thanks Jason!
Look at the current 327 Single-Seven. Compare it to the .327 Blackhawk. The Blackhawk came out & some folks whined & cried wanting it on the Single-Six sized frame. I found it to be a SWEET shooter,,, but it has been dropped. So, Jason has gotten Ruger to build a 327 on the Single-Six frame size & still people whine. Many want the longer chamber for heavier bullets & are complaining the current bullets they cast for 327's are too long. The issue of pressures was addressed by making it a 7 shot, so folks wouldn't complain about a 5 shot cylinder. (Think bolt notch here.)
My point is no matter what, you can't please everyone all the time. But Jason sure DOES listen to us here & tries to get certain guns built to satisfy our desires. KUDOS Jason! (You have to be realistic from a business standpoint as well as having something built w/o major technical changes by Ruger.)
A lot of what I've seem many folks complain about is the fit or finish of a Ruger. A tool mark here or there. Slight differences in grip to frame fit. These are but two of the "normal" complaints I see. Look at what Bill Ruger built his company on AND the current motto; "Rugged, reliable firearms." Key word here is "RUGGED!" If you want a perfect fit & finish, as mentioned, pony up the extra $$ & buy a FA. I happen to own both & yes, the fit, finish & all are much nicer than a production Ruger. I have had the pleasure of touring the FA plant & know how they spend TIME paying attention to details. (Business 101; time costs money.)
Anybody recall the fact that way back when, Bill had cosmetic issues with frames & parts turning plum colored? Folks complained & returned guns to the factory. Bill re-blued them & returned them. Now, plum guns are desired by many collectors. It cost Bill $$$$ every time one was returned.
Another post in a different section by a new member asked about tooling marks on his gun. He took a blown up, very close up pic of a small mark, that appeared to be highlighted by a marker to see it. Not to belittle the new member, but I looked closely at the fit of the frame to trigger housing. The very faint line where the two mated showed a very custom looking fit. I have seen worse marks on new guns from handling by gun shop bozo than the one he was complaining about. (What about the turn ring on cylinders caused by the same bozo's?)
Next, let's look at the other part of the motto; "reliable." If the gun doesn't shoot, or has functioning issues, by all means, AS NOTED ABOVE, a polite call to Ruger is in order.
Nobody,,,, AND I MEAN NOBODY is perfect. Not me, nor anybody else here. Be honest, to those of you who work in a trade where you have to build or craft something. When you first started out, did you always turn out perfect parts or product every time, all the time? I doubt it. We ALL had to learn how to make our work better. Go to any manufacturing plant & one of the constant issues is "how much scrap or rejects" an employee makes is a serious concern. A new employee will have a higher rate of problems as an experienced person. And sometimes, a part or product gets out the door with a few issues. Ruger does a test firing of each gun, but not 200-500 rounds. Problems arise a lot once a gun gets sold & the owner fires more than a couple of rounds. (Base pin walking is an example.) Often an easy fix, and not as common as many would believe. I happen to own (currently) well north of 100 Ruger SA revolvers. I have added exactly ONE Belt Mtn base pin to a gun. And ONLY because I wanted the custom Keith type look. I have had exactly two guns where the base pin wanted to walk forward. Both times I found the screw loose, causing the spring to be weaker. Once tightened properly, NO issues. I used to think I was getting defective guns because I didn't get base pin walk.
But,,, I can also attest to a few defects in a few guns I got from Ruger.
I'm one of the RARE folks who had a Redhawk barrel separate from the frame. In fact I was told that I was the very first person to have this happen.
Ruger customer service took care of the problem, quite nicely too.
I also had one of the newer SR9 semi's that had barrel peening at the hood.
Once again, customer service took care of things.
I also had one of the early P85's that Ruger recalled & upgraded the safety.
Once again, customer service took care of things.
I currently have a 22/45 MKIII LITE that has had the scope base screws strip out. Using the correct torque as recommended too. I haven't even bothered to contact Ruger yet, as I'm deciding if I want to ship it back or fix it myself.
I'm sure customer service will once again take care of me if I choose to send it back.
I've bought many NM Rugers over the years, and while I've seen grip fit issues, or other minor cosmetic issues on a few, I understand business enough to know that I can not expect a custom gun at a production price.
I also understand that NOBODY in the distributors are going to hand inspect each & every firearm they get in. (Business 101; time costs money.) Besides, who's to say an inspector there is going to know what to look for in all the various models & makes they sell?
Next, many, many consumers want a product they can afford. It all boils down to MONEY.
Many consumers will buy a new gun based a LOT on price, brand be darned. We here on the Ruger Forum, as well as the folks who enjoy Colt's, S&W, SIG, etc all are a bit more brand loyal & know a bit more than the higher percentage of average gun buyers.
I have lost count at the number of people who have bought a Heritage Arms 22 SA revolver over a Ruger. Or a Hi-Point over a Taurus. ALL because of $$$$$$$$$$$$!
And a lot of these same folks are perfectly happy with their purchase, because it's what they could afford. As people can afford more, they look for a bit better gun, (or anything) for that matter.
If we as consumers get any product that is bad, we go back to the manufacturer to get it fixed, not the distributors.
Nobody, & I mean NOBODY produces a man made product perfectly 100% of the time. Only God's creations are perfect, and I see too many folks question some of those as well.
Do I expect a perfect product? No. Do I expect a functioning product? Yes. My expectations are realistic. I pay for a production line assembled product accordingly & I pay for a custom product accordingly.
I buy a Chevy over a Ferrari.
I buy Rugers more often over Freedom Arms.
I understand business & manufacturing.
If I have a problem, I'll got to the maker, not the distributor.
If I want as close to perfection as possible, I'll pay a custom price.
I'm a realist.
Cordite
Single-Sixer
LuckenbachTexas said:
Realistic expectations:
1. Ruger produces a defect free quality product.
2. Ruger will inspect each gun and/or its components at various points during the manufacturing process.
2. Ruger will fix all product quality issues in a reasonable amount of time.
3. Distributors (including Lipsey's) will discuss customer issues and other feedback with their vendors (including Ruger).
Unrealistic expectations:
1. Any distributor will open every product package and hand inspect all products using a complete inspection checklist supplied by the manufacturer.
2. Any distributor will perform item no. 1 for free.
3. Every distributor will do business in the same exact way... i.e. Davidson's versus Lipsey's versus Sports South versus Zander's versus etc...
As far as the 'groupies' comment goes...
Yes, we are all Ruger fans here but that does not mean we let Ruger off the hook for blunders. We expect a quality product too and are quite vocal when something isn't right. We don't blindly accept whatever Ruger is producing and label it as being perfect in every way. A bit of time reading the threads here will show that.
What most people understand here is that Ruger is investing in tightly controlled manufacturing processes using high quality machinery versus hand fitting every part together with a team of skilled gunsmiths. While both approaches work the manual process will cost a bunch more and result in not many guns being sold. Freedom Arms is the best example of this... beautiful, perfect hand-made guns with a very high price tag that only a few can afford.
Let's do a little math regarding Lipsey's and inspecting firearms...
1. 14% of Ruger production goes through Lipsey's annually (Ruger 2013 Form 10K, page 6).
2. Ruger shipped 2,237,400 firearms in 2013 (Ruger 2013 Form 10K, page 21).
3. Lipsey's was the recipient of 313,236 firearms in 2013 from Ruger alone. (2,237,400 * 14%)
4. Assuming 5 days a week and no holidays Lipsey's would have to inspect 1204 Ruger firearms every day to keep up.
I do not know the total annual volume of firearms through Lipsey's but I do know that they sell many more manufacturers than Ruger. You can see that it would take quite an army of inspectors to fulfill the (unrealistic) expectation that every firearm is quality inspected by Lipsey's.
Cordite
LuckenbachTexas
Buckeye
Deleted
I think some folks here are really missing the point of the OP and follow-up posts (from me at least). There is no bashing of Lipsey's. There is no adoration of Davidsons, or any other stocking distributor.
Fact: Every box gets opened by every distributor to visual every s/n today. As we speak. 100%. Checking for known defect characteristics is called Cost of Poor Quality. Very normal process.
Fact: Customers have wanted this model and anticipated a great platform that would be safe, dependable, and "worth keeping" in the degree e've come to expect from Ruger.
Fact: The Single Seven guns have had early and consistent returns due to defects including raw, sharp edges; poor cylinder fit and gap; damaged-as-shipped; poor fitting of grips, poorly-fitted base pins, etc. Some of these are indeed safety issues. A single day of production/shipping with KNOWN safety defects is unacceptable.
Fact: Richard Lipsey put his company's name and reputation (and a pretty darn big $$ investment) on the line on the pretty good bet that Ruger would take reasonable care and pride completing the guns under this "Lipsey's Exclusive" model.
Fact: The companies whose name is on the gun are affected by the poor quality issues, and the customer develops a perception of workmanship and comittment to quality & value. Who once said: "You're only as good as the last game you pitched"?
Ruger needs to step up. Lipsey's needs to step up. And every customer who gets a lemon needs to step up, most of all. We as American shooters cannot allow nor facilitate malaise in our firearms industry. Let's not let Ruger or Lipsey's become the American Motors of US gun sales.
No thinking person expects a hand-built exhibition piece for a $500-600 revolver, but we all expect a safe, admirable shootin' iron for the money.
Make it and sell it right the first time. That is the definition of value.
Fact: Every box gets opened by every distributor to visual every s/n today. As we speak. 100%. Checking for known defect characteristics is called Cost of Poor Quality. Very normal process.
Fact: Customers have wanted this model and anticipated a great platform that would be safe, dependable, and "worth keeping" in the degree e've come to expect from Ruger.
Fact: The Single Seven guns have had early and consistent returns due to defects including raw, sharp edges; poor cylinder fit and gap; damaged-as-shipped; poor fitting of grips, poorly-fitted base pins, etc. Some of these are indeed safety issues. A single day of production/shipping with KNOWN safety defects is unacceptable.
Fact: Richard Lipsey put his company's name and reputation (and a pretty darn big $$ investment) on the line on the pretty good bet that Ruger would take reasonable care and pride completing the guns under this "Lipsey's Exclusive" model.
Fact: The companies whose name is on the gun are affected by the poor quality issues, and the customer develops a perception of workmanship and comittment to quality & value. Who once said: "You're only as good as the last game you pitched"?
Ruger needs to step up. Lipsey's needs to step up. And every customer who gets a lemon needs to step up, most of all. We as American shooters cannot allow nor facilitate malaise in our firearms industry. Let's not let Ruger or Lipsey's become the American Motors of US gun sales.
No thinking person expects a hand-built exhibition piece for a $500-600 revolver, but we all expect a safe, admirable shootin' iron for the money.
Make it and sell it right the first time. That is the definition of value.
I've got a number of FFL friends and practically all of them inspect new handguns before they go into the glass case. I've been present and assisted with this on several occasions... two of them quit carrying the wares of a certain popular Brazilian makers because too many of their handguns went back in the shipping box instead of the display case.
These guys did this because it saved them the grief of an upset customer and the headache of trying to arrange service for a gun that had already been transferred. They saw this as preventive medicine. Of course that's a judgment call on the reseller's part.
These guys did this because it saved them the grief of an upset customer and the headache of trying to arrange service for a gun that had already been transferred. They saw this as preventive medicine. Of course that's a judgment call on the reseller's part.
chet15
Hawkeye
The ultimate question is why point the finger at everybody who handled the product (a usual legal/lawyer tactic...something that you all know has hurt our gun rights and the gun industry).
So who's ultimate responsibility was it to make sure Chevy's air bags were not defective...do you point the finger at the car dealership, the manufacturer, any other intermediaries who handled the product, or all of them?
Can the car dealership know they were defective? Don't you need to go right to the source and not blame every intermediary for a bad product?
I really think you need to go to the source, 'cause that's where the middleman (Lipsey's/Davidson's) is going to go anyway isn't it??
Chet15
So who's ultimate responsibility was it to make sure Chevy's air bags were not defective...do you point the finger at the car dealership, the manufacturer, any other intermediaries who handled the product, or all of them?
Can the car dealership know they were defective? Don't you need to go right to the source and not blame every intermediary for a bad product?
I really think you need to go to the source, 'cause that's where the middleman (Lipsey's/Davidson's) is going to go anyway isn't it??
Chet15
Jason at Lipsey's
Single-Sixer
First off let me address a couple of incorrect statements.
Mohavesam,
You have said a couple of times you know for a fact that every box is opened by the distributors to verify serial numbers. This is completely incorrect. We have never done that in my 16 years at Lipsey's. I was curious though to see if we were the exception so I called a few of my friends at other distributors and they confirmed that they do not open any boxes either. All guns are scanned in and scanned out via barcoded labels. Not sure where you are getting your information, but it is wrong.
Lukenbach Texas,
I'm not going to re-hash the reasons we do not and could not inspect each gun that comes in our warehouse. Gunsbam69, Cordite, Dpris, Contender, and others have stated correctly the reasons and I do appreciate you guys stating the facts. In order to make sure each gun is perfect like you said, we would not only have to inspect each gun but also test fire them pretty extensively to be 100% sure. I'm sure some people would complain we sold "used" guns if we did that. You mentioned that the TALO guns had the best fit and finish. As Gunsbam69 said, Davidsons ( A great company as well) and us distribute the majority of TALO guns. TALO isn't a distributor in itself, but a distributor buying group that commissions special runs. I can assure you nobody's special runs get more special attention than others. The guys and gals on the factory floor assembling guns have no idea where the guns are going to. Lastly, you mentioned that we have "Ruger Collectors" that work for us that cherry pick guns in the back for themselves. I sure would like to know who these people are. I'm not aware of them, but if you know something I don't, please give me some names so they can be written up for going in the warehouse and opening boxes.
Some people have issued concerns whether we care or not about guns with cosmetic or function issues. That is a legitimate concern and I can tell you we take it very seriously. Every time we have to take a gun back its like taking a $50 bill and setting it on fire. By the time we absorb the shipping and processing cost we lose money on that gun. When we are made aware of a problem we take that to the manufacturer so they can take measures to correct it.
Some have questioned whether Lipsey's as a company cares about its customers. All I can say is that's THE reason I even started posting on here. When some guys asked me to join the forum I told them I am not here to sell guns or shill for our company. All I wanted to do was be a resource and a contact point for guys and gals who had questions, concerns, problems, or suggestions. Lipsey's has been extremely open (some from within the industry think too open) with production numbers, qty's sold, product lead times, etc. Just ask CHET15 how easy it is to get that kind of info from other distributors. We don't have to do any of this, but we are gun enthusiast too and know info like that is something fellow enthusiast like to know. My inbox has stayed full of request for help to find a gun, to get info about a gun, help with an issue with a gun, or to give ideas for future guns. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I have responded to each and every request and have done whatever it took to make the customer happy. Some of the issues were our fault, some the maker's fault, some a dealer's fault, some the forum members fault. Either way we do our best to make you happy.
In the end, if you are concerned about the fact we do not inspect each gun that comes in our warehouse and decide not to buy one, there aren't any hard feelings here. If you would like to discuss it further I'm always available. If there's one thing you can't say is that I'm not accessible. You can email me, PM me, call me , write me, or send me your number and I will call you.
Here are all the points of contact:
toll free: 800-666-1333
email: [email protected]
mailing address: Lipsey's, LLC.
7277 Exchequer Drive
Baton Rouge, LA 70809
Have a good day,
Jason
Mohavesam,
You have said a couple of times you know for a fact that every box is opened by the distributors to verify serial numbers. This is completely incorrect. We have never done that in my 16 years at Lipsey's. I was curious though to see if we were the exception so I called a few of my friends at other distributors and they confirmed that they do not open any boxes either. All guns are scanned in and scanned out via barcoded labels. Not sure where you are getting your information, but it is wrong.
Lukenbach Texas,
I'm not going to re-hash the reasons we do not and could not inspect each gun that comes in our warehouse. Gunsbam69, Cordite, Dpris, Contender, and others have stated correctly the reasons and I do appreciate you guys stating the facts. In order to make sure each gun is perfect like you said, we would not only have to inspect each gun but also test fire them pretty extensively to be 100% sure. I'm sure some people would complain we sold "used" guns if we did that. You mentioned that the TALO guns had the best fit and finish. As Gunsbam69 said, Davidsons ( A great company as well) and us distribute the majority of TALO guns. TALO isn't a distributor in itself, but a distributor buying group that commissions special runs. I can assure you nobody's special runs get more special attention than others. The guys and gals on the factory floor assembling guns have no idea where the guns are going to. Lastly, you mentioned that we have "Ruger Collectors" that work for us that cherry pick guns in the back for themselves. I sure would like to know who these people are. I'm not aware of them, but if you know something I don't, please give me some names so they can be written up for going in the warehouse and opening boxes.
Some people have issued concerns whether we care or not about guns with cosmetic or function issues. That is a legitimate concern and I can tell you we take it very seriously. Every time we have to take a gun back its like taking a $50 bill and setting it on fire. By the time we absorb the shipping and processing cost we lose money on that gun. When we are made aware of a problem we take that to the manufacturer so they can take measures to correct it.
Some have questioned whether Lipsey's as a company cares about its customers. All I can say is that's THE reason I even started posting on here. When some guys asked me to join the forum I told them I am not here to sell guns or shill for our company. All I wanted to do was be a resource and a contact point for guys and gals who had questions, concerns, problems, or suggestions. Lipsey's has been extremely open (some from within the industry think too open) with production numbers, qty's sold, product lead times, etc. Just ask CHET15 how easy it is to get that kind of info from other distributors. We don't have to do any of this, but we are gun enthusiast too and know info like that is something fellow enthusiast like to know. My inbox has stayed full of request for help to find a gun, to get info about a gun, help with an issue with a gun, or to give ideas for future guns. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I have responded to each and every request and have done whatever it took to make the customer happy. Some of the issues were our fault, some the maker's fault, some a dealer's fault, some the forum members fault. Either way we do our best to make you happy.
In the end, if you are concerned about the fact we do not inspect each gun that comes in our warehouse and decide not to buy one, there aren't any hard feelings here. If you would like to discuss it further I'm always available. If there's one thing you can't say is that I'm not accessible. You can email me, PM me, call me , write me, or send me your number and I will call you.
Here are all the points of contact:
toll free: 800-666-1333
email: [email protected]
mailing address: Lipsey's, LLC.
7277 Exchequer Drive
Baton Rouge, LA 70809
Have a good day,
Jason
