Ruger/Lipsey's Quality Falling Fast ?

[mohavesam]

Well I'm now one-for-three now in the Lipsey's Single Seven guns. :evil:
I'm beginning to understand that Lipsey's does not inspect these guns, and Neither does Ruger NH?
Here's my own personal saga (not second-hand or interweb re-flush) Not a rant, just a first-person experience:

First gun - Ordered and took delivery of a 5.5" S7. Rejected it on the counter because of uneven and credit-card size b/c gap, sharp edges all-over, obvious damage to the front site (dropped on floor???), scratches on the muzzle and top of barrel, seriously ill-fitting grip panels. Both the LGS pistolsmith (a former Ruger employee) and I just shook our heads.

Second gun - LGS called when they got in a 4.625" S7, held it for me. We both gave it the once over and it looked alright - still lots of very sharp edges, this one missed de-burring, but was timed well (no cylinder ring yet) and showed no obvious damage. I bought it and fired it a few days later. Federal 100 gr ammo, perhaps the most-widely available 327FM stuff out there, shot 3-4" "groups" of varying shapes at 21' despite soft and hard rests, that's all anyone could do with it that day. OK its not a match gun or even a headshot-worthy woods gun, but its no worse than a Hi-Point... Base pin jumped fwd a couple of times and the action pins walked out a couple times, no big fix but this is a new gun right? Oh yeah, we both sliced our fingers on the sharp edges of the trigger guard when firing it. Machine marks on the grip frame indicate no inspection and no de-burring. Even a blind guy could inspect/detect the tooling on the outside, albeit he/she would need bandaids afterward. Ok, it at least shoots the indicated ammo downrange, and doesn't blind the person next to you at the range with b/c hot lead "spit".

Third gun - Found a new 4.625" being unpacked at a different LGS. Ended up buying it with the intention of selling the other somehow. Third time is a charm right? This gun still has what have become in my experience, the Single-Seven hallmarks: noticeably ill-fitting grip panels, very light-strike nomenclature on both sides of the frame, and VERY sharp edges all -over. By that I mean the ejector shroud slot could/does slice fingernails, the ejector knob itself, the frame edges are raw cut steel, the trigger guard is rough-machined and sharp burrs on all edges, and even the hammer looks like a raw part - with cutting-sharp edges all over.
To its credit, this shorty will out-shoot the other gun I own by almost half the groups, and b/c gap is very tight and even.

I've spent decades in aerospace and understand the simple steps such as tumbling/deburr, and hand-finishing that Ruger omitted and Lipsey's sold anyway. I also understand contracts and believe if Lipsey's didn't inspect these guns after so many complaints, they are complacent in the defects sold to their customers.

Sooo... I'll end up sending (edited: sent both back) both guns back to Ruger, although they should go back to Lipsey's as, I believe them to share the responsibility as they sell these guns and no one else.
The poor quality of these guns I believe, is a statement of all that is wrong with American manufacturing and the marketing-above-quality syndrome that pushes American consumers toward offshore-made products just to get value in durable goods. Its no wonder Ruger shooters in the know prefer the "old Rugers" to spending their hard-earned cash on new-production New Hampshire products. (Mr Fifer, please feel free to post this account on a NH bulletin board.)

I think Lipsey's should be embarrassed enough to include a "metal finishing kit" with these Ruger products as a standard accessory. Include bandaids..

 

[Barkis]

I just hate hearing stories like this, but I've had similar experiences, all within the past year, but not with these guns.

 

[JmE]

It does seem to me that something is not right at Ruger these days.

 

[Jason at Lipsey's]

Mohavesam,

I'm sorry you haven't been able to find a gun that us up to your standards. Fortunately, hundreds of our customers are happy with their guns including the Single Sevens. Since you have no idea of how the firearms distribution system works, I will just tell you that no distributor inspects every gun that comes into their warehouse. Ruger makes more guns than anyone out there and some will get out that probably shouldn't, but they do have the best customer service in the industry and will make it right. If you need to discuss this further feel free to call me directly at 800-666-1333 to discuss.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

IMHO the "ship it out and let customer service fix it later" syndrome is a disgusting approach to manufacturing. I'd bet there are many more in this condition that we simply don't hear about because most folks don't play on these gun websites.

Sad, because the 327 "Single-Seven" is a gun I had hoped Ruger would make. Continued threads like this have cooled my enthusiasm considerably.

 

[LuckenbachTexas]

Well, Jason. Certainly y'all could inspect them before they go out...Right?

Mohavesam,

I'm sorry you haven't been able to find a gun that us up to your standards. Fortunately, hundreds of our customers are happy with their guns including the Single Sevens. Since you have no idea of how the firearms distribution system works, I will just tell you that no distributor inspects every gun that comes into their warehouse. Ruger makes more guns than anyone out there and some will get out that probably shouldn't, but they do have the best customer service in the industry and will make it right. If you need to discuss this further feel free to call me directly at 800-666-1333 to discuss.

 

[LuckenbachTexas]

I agree, and also feel the "hundreds of satisfied customers" sounds like an OBAMA answer. Not trying to pick a fight, that answer is all kinds of wrong. Its like a Chinese restaurant telling me about its satisfied customers while my dish has the coon's foot. Y'all been in business too long and have brought forth too many good products for that answer.

A man shouldn't have to put down hard earned cash for slop and be given a "Corporate answer".

IMHO the "ship it out and let customer service fix it later" syndrome is a disgusting approach to manufacturing. I'd bet there are many more in this condition that we simply don't hear about because most folks don't play on these gun websites.

Sad, because the 327 "Single-Seven" is a gun I had hoped Ruger would make. Continued threads like this have cooled my enthusiasm considerably.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

I do wonder about those who buy a gun, take it home, examine it there, and decide it's crap.

Whenever I buy a gun, I examine it closely before putting down the cash. This may not preclude getting one that displays dismal accuracy, but fit, finish, and action can surely be checked out up front. A dealer who will not allow this level of inspection will not get repeat business from me. Further, I would expect a dealer to handle any repair returns for me should a problem arise after sale.

I'm not referring to anyone here, just stating my own observations & preferences.

 

[LuckenbachTexas]

That's all good if you are afforded the opportunity to have that gun your looking for right there where you can look at it, UNFORTUNATELY, with the "DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM" the way it really is, you get what you get, and are sometimes forced to deal with a hassle. This puts many at the MERCY of those sending the product. EVERYONE in the DISTRIBUTION process has a MORAL OBLIGATION to make sure the buyer receives a wonderful product. Its called "GOOD ETHICS".

I do wonder about those who buy a gun, take it home, examine it there, and decide it's crap.

Whenever I buy a gun, I examine it closely before putting down the cash. This may not preclude getting one that displays dismal accuracy, but fit, finish, and action can surely be checked out up front. A dealer who will not allow this level of inspection will not get repeat business from me.

I'm not referring to anyone here, just stating my own observations.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Does Lipsey's accept the responsibility for problem guns returned from dealers?

 

[fbks ak]

Great post and maybe Ruger and Lipseys will read it
and take notice.Maybe we should all go to other companys
until everything gets squared away. Naa all the others are
just as bad or worse.......Tom

 

[hittman]

Well, the guns we buy (ANY product actually) are either to our personal standards .... or not.

Maybe I missed something in translation but seems to me Jason's post is very reasonable and likely can help resolve the OPs issues.

Guess I don't understand how some people in other areas are required to purchase guns. Always amazes me too that folks spend hundreds upon hundreds of dollars only to get home and discover problems.

Suppose we're fortunate here that FFLs allow us to refuse a gun if it's not right. Then the gun does back and another one gets in the pipeline to the store.

 

[Justice B. Swift]

I'm with WAYNO (and others) on this. Most of our dealers are simply not inventorying like they used to and we often order online with no opportunity for pre-inspection. This is more often the case with "special" or Limited models. We don't like to see poor fit and finish, but we simply can't except mechanical defects. This is NOT going to be O.K. After all, we are talking about "FIREARMS". Hello... our health is on the line here. I grew up in a family of machinists and tool & die makers. Admittedly my expectations may be a bit more polished than some; however we all have a reasonable right to expect the product to shoot safely and without parts falling off the gun, or projectile shavings spraying in every direction. I have purchased no less than 4 new Ruger single actions in the past four months and have experienced multiple mechanical defects and multiple cosmetic defects. I have lost faith in Ruger. I have shot their products for 45 years, but will likely not buy any more "current production" guns from them until a substantial improvement is made. Taking the attitude that it's acceptable to fix it "IF & WHEN" the customer complains will never fly in my book. I believe that if Bill senior were still at the helm, this crap would never get out the door. Ruger, where is your pride? Do you really think we don't know the difference, the value? How do you think you became so popular in the first place? Quality at a fair price! Gone and going! Sad...

 

[JPGLSG]

IMHO the "ship it out and let customer service fix it later" syndrome is a disgusting approach to manufacturing. I'd bet there are many more in this condition that we simply don't hear about because most folks don't play on these gun websites.

Sad, because the 327 "Single-Seven" is a gun I had hoped Ruger would make. Continued threads like this have cooled my enthusiasm considerably.

I do appreciate the honesty in Mo's post.

Ale your remarks are dead on, I was about to pull the trigger on the three brl. lengths. I think I'll just hold off at this point and wait and see. My last three Rugers have had a return trip to the factory.

 

[hittman]

It'd be interesting to know what percentage of total production gets rejected at the retail level.

 

[SargeMO]

I get the 'thousands of satisfied customer' line... but the reason they're 'satisfied' is not because of a great product. I suspect there is a high percentage of the market that never shoots a pistol anywhere except an indoor range and then no further than 50 feet. Most of them are never going to develop the skill to tell if a particular example is a bowser.

Regardless, I don't think the distributor takes the hit for this. The problem is at Ruger.

 

[mohavesam]

Hittman, I do not think that measure is honestly available. Subjectivity is well, subject to the whims of millions of different people.

For the record on Jason's observation, and i won't flame him, I actually do have an idea how the distribution system works, But its not about my resume. 8)

Given that Lipsey's in this case, spec'd the guns and they happily put their name on this "exclusive" product, and then with Jason representing? them here and given the instant and plentiful complaints about the workmanship on the S7 guns, I would expect any QA/CI/marketing relations professional would gather up the VPs and STRONGLY recommend a qualified sample inspection program to see what the risk is compared to continued shipping defective guns. If it were MY company doing quality cert/continuous improvement for Lipsey's I'd ensure Ruger execs were in attendance weekly until the physical characteristics were corrected.

I just had high hopes for this model, and if I buy another I'll update the RF on the customer's perception not the distributor's, of quality and value, :?
Just trying to buy new guns. Dependable product quality would help.

 

[dwayne]

I think it's Ruger that failing fast. At the root of this mess, I'd bet that gunsmiths are out, sandal wearing TPS manufacturing "experts" doing Kiasen events, RIW's and FMEA analysis are in. And, I'd bet they think all is well because sales are up. So, in the end, I guess it's loyal consumers like us that are really the root cause. I'll confess that the last five I have bought were disappointing (at best).

 

[57springer]

very sad, makes the old rugers much more desirable.

 

[bisley32]

I agree about Ruger's quality going "down hill".My 5.5 Single Seven came with a b-c gap of .014. Returned it to Ruger,they replaced the cylinder, and returned it to me. With a b-c gap of .012! It is going back again! The fit and finish were fine though. I in NO WAY,blame Lipsey's. It is not their job to do Ruger's "Quality Control" for them. They paid for a product,just like the rest of us. Said product should arrive in sellable condition. I really appreciate Lipsey's bringing us some really nice Ruger's that wouldn't be available otherwise.

 

[buckeyeshooter]

I don't doubt the problem with the guns. But I have to give Lipsey's a break. It is impossible for them to 'inspect' every product that comes in the door. They would have to hire several more employees and it would slow the product in shipping to the dealers and raise cost.
It sounds like they are being sold an inferior product and it should be the manufacturer who does the job correctly the first time.

 

[LuckenbachTexas]

So inspect every one that goes out the door. Heck, even Walmart looks in my rubbermaid containers to see if I stole anything. Surely, the distributors are as good as the employees at Walmart?

 

[Jim Puke]

I have Lipsey's and Talo's...and I have to say the Talo's are the better (fit, finish,function) guns and this is with several of each.

 

[Ethang]

I was one who eagerly awaited a Single Seven, only to be disappointed when it came in. My shop gave me the option to reject it and order another or send it back for repairs. I elected to send it back due to it being a first run of the series with a 3 digit number and not knowing if or when another would be available. If it was a standard model I would have rejected it without question.

I agree with questioning QC at Ruger. There is no way my pistol should have left the factory. If it was "with in spec" then there is something seriously wrong with what that spec is. After the trip back, to their credit Ruger did correct the major issues and even put a trigger job in there.

I would think it would be much less expensive to handle that at the build stage rather than ship it both ways and pay somebody to correct the problems.

And to his credit I was in contact with Jason, and he was very helpful in the matter and followed up when I got the repaired pistol back.

 

[DPris]

QC problems are entirely on Ruger.
Lipsey's does not have the time to open up & inspect every gun they sell, just waaaaaay too many.

Ruger does need to step up.
Denis

 

[smike308]

I'm sure that Lipsey's, just like us, the consumers trusts Ruger's quality control to catch the defective guns before they ever leave Ruger's plant. This isn't just Ruger. Similar problems exist with other makes, as well. If you follow some of the other brand's forums you know that. The offer Jason has made to help correct the problem shows that he(Lipsey's) is a class act. Maybe one of the dissatisfied owners should forward this thread to Fifer @ Ruger.

 

[SweetWilliam]

Can't speak for the single 7's but I'm 100% satisfied with my Lipsey's SuperBlackHawk. The fit is good & shoots great.

 

[TinStarFirearms]

Thank you Jason for chiming in on this issue. I do appreciate how your company commissions innovative products that I could not afford to have a custom gunmaker make up for me.

I agree with those voicing opinions that flaws are the blame of the manufacturer and not distributor. I don't expect my convenience store to examine each can of Dr. Pepper that I buy for quality control as they come off the truck.

Andrew

 

[101VooDoo]

I picked up a Single Seven 5 1/2 this week, and I have to say I'm more than happy with it. Fit and finish are fine, cylinder gap is .006. This one has a fired cartridge date of 3 Oct, and a serial number in the high 1600s.

Grip fit isn't perfect, but no better or worse than any other Ruger I've bought in the last 10 years. I do like the gunfighter configuration though.

I applaud Lipsey's for the neat variations they get Ruger to produce, and hope a .327 SP101 with adjustable sights is in the works. Another round of .44 Special Vaqueros won't hurt either.

 

[chefrob1]

I certainly agree that Ruger is responsible for Q/C but to let Lipsey totally off the hook is not right......yes they are also a customer (of Ruger) but they are also taking in $$$ for a profit. In the beginning they should pull say 1 of 50 to 75 to "check" that they are not getting screwed as well......unless they don't care what they put their name on for a buck. That way they could inform Ruger that they are not satisfied and that Lipsey's customers deserve the best........unless they have a different philosophy regarding their customer base. Everyone in the distribution chain is a customer at some level and standards are expected to be met at each level and if once identified, should be addressed.