Reduced power spring for SR 1911

[todd51]

Arthritis pain, weakness and age is making it almost impossible for me to cycle the slide on my SR1911 with my left hand even with the hammer cocked. From the outset this pistol has seemed to have very strong springs, more than any other 1911 I have had experience. I also have a Colt Gold Cup MK IV/Series '70 with stock springs and I can still cycle the slide even without the hammer cocked. I think the recoil spring in the Colt is 12 lbs (??) and I have no idea what the hammer/main spring rating is.

What I would like to do is swap out the springs necessary to make this Ruger as easy to operate as the Colt is. I realize I will have to come up with some reduced power reloads to go with the weaker springs (weaker springs/weaker loads). Hopefully I can come up with a combo that will work in both the Colt and the Ruger. This will be for range use only. So the question is where do I start power wise with the springs and does the recoil and main spring have to be in some sort of balance? How about the firing pin spring?

Have any of you swapped out springs to accomplish something that would work for me. Watching some of the competition shooters work their slides makes me think there is a combo that will work. I see them working their slides with thumb and a couple fingers. Ain't no way I can do that, ha. So hopefully you can give me some pointers on spring ratings and loads that will let me again enjoy shooting this fine pistol.

 

[revhigh]

I think it's more than just springs .... you're probably comparing a well worn, well machined and tuned Gold Cup to a basic factory 1911. Changing springs may cause other issues, including battering of the gun. It can't be THAT hard to rack ... is it?

My Gold Cups have 16 lb springs for the 200 grain SWC's, and any 230 grain load is supposed to use the 18 lb spring.

I think you're feeling a lack of machining and fitting quality on the Ruger that you've become used to in your Gold Cups. Once you've become used to Gold Cups and Pythons, it's tough to go back to basic 1911's and GP100's ... I know ... I have all the ones I just mentioned, and I like all of them. After handling/shooting a Gold Cup or a Python ..... everything else feels pretty coarse, except some of the old Smiths.

REV

 

[Precision32]

I run a 14# recoil spring with a 19# main spring in my full sized Springer. 14# was the spring rate that Browning used for the recoil spring in the original design of the 1911. Using the 19# main spring I have never had a round fail to go BANG when the trigger was pulled.

You can check the radius at the bottom of the firing pin stop. There should be a rather large radius. A large radius gives the side more mechanical advantage over the hammer and makes cocking the firearm easier. I run an EGW oversize FPS with a minimum radius. This is as Browning designed the firearm, which gives a lower felt recoil but does make cycling by hand a little harder. With the 1911A1 the military added the larger radius to make racking the slide easier.

Just some ideas to kick around.

 

[todd51]

I want to thank you, revhigh and Precision 32, for your assistance. I took a look at the firing pin stop on both the Ruger and the Colt and there is definitely a difference in the profile of the radius between the two. There is a "flat" on the Ruger before it "blends" to the slide but the Colt does not have this flat possibly making for a greater radius on the Colt.

I also see that Wolf offers a recoil spring kit with 11 to 15 lb. springs. Also a couple hammer spring kits, one with 19, 20, & 21 lb. springs and another with 15, 16, & 17 springs. I am thinking of ordering those spring kits and doing some experimenting.

Changing the profile of the firing pin stop may be something an amateur like me should avoid. Plus I don't want to do something that can't be reversed on this pistol.

Just as an aside, I notice Wolf has recoil springs as low as 5 lb. What sort of powder puff load would be used with such a light recoil spring?

Thanks again for the help.

p.s. While the two pistols were apart I swapped the recoil springs and with the Gold Cup spring in the Ruger I can cycle the slide with my weak left hand even with out cocking the hammer first so I think we are on to something.

Todd

 

[Precision32]

The firing pin stops in your photo look like that are about the same. A small radius is real obvious.

For what you need I would try a 14# recoil spring. I shoot 230 hard ball and 14# is what Browning designed the firearm with for that ammo. Wolffe sells a set of "tuning" recoil springs that don't run too much. If you reload you might try some 180 grain bullets and could safely use a much lower rated ring without battering the gun.

 

[dakota1911]

From what I understand Ruger uses a 18 to 18.5 lb spring in the SR1911. Colt is still using a 16lb spring in their 5 inch 45ACP guns. In the new Gold Cups you get two springs with the weaker one at 14 lbs having a dab of green paint on it.

I agree the Ruger is harder to pull back the slide on. I want to put a 16 lb spring in the Ruger and see how it performs. Have not done it yet. Agree the Ruger is harder to pull back the slide on.

 

[mattsbox99]

Man, that photo makes it really tough to tell which one is more well machined. :D

I have a 12lb recoil spring in my Para. Everybody that has shot it has commented on how soft shooting it is. There is no appreciable frame battering.

 

[dlidster]

Man, that photo makes it really tough to tell which one is more well machined. :D

I was going to point that out, too, but I didn't want to break the hearts of some of the die-hard Colt fans here.

 

[gray wolf]

The 1911 was not made by browning to utilize a 14# recoil spring.
The original design was with a 16# recoil spring and a 23# main spring.
Please do a little research so folks don't get confused.
The gold cups I have seen came with a standard 16# recoil spring and a 12# spring for soft shooting bulls eye loads. The firing pin spring is not an issue in relation to the energy needed to withdraw the slide, the heavy firing pin spring is a Lawyer thing to help negate accidental discharge if the pistol is dropped and the hammer struck.
The original 1911,s were built with a square bottom FPS not the long bevel rounded ones like you see used today.
Troopers carried there 1911,s on horse back and the carry mode was no round in the chamber. The square bottom FPS offers more resistance to the hammer when bringing the slide back, it was changed to a rounded stop in order to allow a little easier slide travel making it a little easier to bring the slide back while on horse back. It has worked it's way into the commercial market and seems to be used by almost all the manufactures today. The square bottom stop was not a true square bottom, while flat to the disconnect rail it had a slight bevel on the back side that contacted the hammer ( very slight ) This square bottom stop in employed by many shooters today, Why ? cause it delays the slide just a fraction and creates a straighter recoil in the hand, eliminating some of the torque to the right. This allows a little quicker target acquisition for follow up shots. The muzzle rises with a better vertical rise and settles a little quicker.
Some say ( I do ) it reduces felt recoil, or at least perceived felt recoil.
For now I would not change the main spring, it should be 23# ( standard )
Maine springs can and do effect the trigger pull. the lighter the main spring the less force is applied to the hammer sear interface, this can be a good thing when doing a trigger job, *AND* if you know what your doing. To light or if all parts are not in harmony and working correctly can cause hammer follow.
If in fact you do have an 18# recoils spring, your pistol is over sprung.
16# is fine for any hard ball load and some +P ( not a steady diet of +P )
What you need is to replace the recoil spring, get a set of low power springs.
15# 14# and a 12 # replace them one at a time until you are comfortable bringing the slide back. Don't pull the slide back with the left hand,
Hold the slide firmly with the left hand and push forward with the right hand.
When you find a spring weight that suites you -- you will then have to find a target load that will function the slide. 3.5 or 3.8 of bulls eye powder is a very mild load and a very accurate load often used in bulls eye target style shooting.
It should work with a 12 or 14# recoil spring depending on how tight your slide to frame fit is. this should help you. I would NOT change anything else for now,
remember when you change one thing it has an effect on two or three other things, and never change more than one thing at a time.
18# recoil spring are run in many 1911,s as a band aid for a pistol that will not run correctly with a standard 16# spring. ( does not apply to you )

 

[todd51]

Thank you Bearcat for your info and suggestions. I agree with everything you have said. I am pretty sure my Gold Cup has the 12# recoil spring. While I didn't purchase it new some 30 to 35 years ago I did purchase it from the person that did buy it new. It was in like new condition but I didn't get the box or any of the box's contents. I have used those Bullseye loads in the past and they are very accurate and mild and work fine in the Gold Cup. I am also aware of the push with the right as opposed to pulling with the left and my statement was more a figure of speech. I have some extra recoil springs and just to see I have clipped two coils off a new Wolf 18 1/2# spring and that has resulted in a usable condition. What I was most appreciative with your info was that I can leave the other springs alone. I have several loads on hand (my reloads) and one is 3.8 grs. of WW231 behind 200 gr. LSWC and as soon as I catch a warm day I will give that load and some of the others a try to see how things function and watch where the ejected cases go. Again I thank you for your help and information. It is not fun to admit you are getting old and can no longer do what you used to do. I realize clipping springs is a poor man's solution and will get the springs you are suggesting.

 

[Precision32]

The 1911 was not made by browning to utilize a 14# recoil spring.
The original design was with a 16# recoil spring and a 23# main spring.
Please do a little research so folks don't get confused.

The information I posted came from the US Army Ordinance drawing. Where did you get your info?

 

[gray wolf]

Thank you Sir for defending your statement, Yes while a drawing may say something and produce a #-- my research has come up with some slightly different things.
While you state that a 14 # spring was used I do believe it was closer to 15 #
and over the years 16# has become the standard weight, However even that has become a very customizable item, with many people thinking they know better than the experts. ( as a gun smith I am sure you are aware of that *Smile*
Also spring length and # of coils has been discussed and I do think it is a consideration as to the 16 pound accepted weight being standard. As to your drawing that shows 14# ( and I do not dispute what you said or your numbers )
With today's springs, and manufacturing, plus they are not all the same, close but they do vary some. I must apologize for making my statement sound like it was etched in stone. I am sure you took that as a challenge and it was not meant to be.
My statement contradicted your drawing, that being said and being as humble as I can be, I must add, I would not recommend a 14# recoil spring for a modern 1911 shooting hardball ammo. !5 # perhaps with a flat bottom F P S
and the slight increase in slide dwell time I could see. I have seen many a pistol that were under sprung 14# spring and the rounded bottom FPS shooting hardball and showing firing pin drag marks on the fired primers cause by the slide retracting to fast while the pin was still active against the primer.
But Sir, if you choose to use a 14# spring on your pistols please do so.
But to say it is the standard and accepted spring weight for a 1911 45 ACP
with ball ammo, that I must disagree with.
That your drawing indicates it, yes I am sure it does, and I am not saying it does not. I used a poor choice of words to describe my statement.
NOW !! can we go shoot and have some fun ?? :lol:

 

[Precision32]

Ref Ordinance Drawing 5013200, dated 1 MAY 28, Spring, Recoil;

LOAD AT COMPRESSED LENGTH OF 1.81" (full recoil) 13.55# +/-0.60 #

This rating was for use with 230g Hardball ammo.

Also dated DATED 1 MAY 28 is the revised drawing for the Firing Pin Stop showing the 7/32 radius, so I firmly believe the 13.55# Recoil Spring was intended to be used with the larger radius; both revisions show the same date.

When in doubt, go to the original source. :wink:

 

[gray wolf]

Thank you so much for clearing that up, I like a person that has his/her facts straight.
Also I appreciate your knowledge in the matter, you proved your point.
The original spring was 13.55# +/- 0.60

 

[vicious]

HI. I wonder if a progressive wound recoil spring may be softer to rack the slide as it would start off lighter? I am thinking of trying it for my wife to help her to work the slide. What do you guy think about of it?

 

[Precision32]

I've never run them so I can't comment on how they might work.

 

[gray wolf]

depends on how week or to what extent the inability is to draw the slide back.
I doubt the springs you have in mind will cure the problem.
If the weapon is for self defense ? it just may be a poor choice and a lesser sub caliber or a revolver may be a better choice. But keep in mind many sub Cal. semi autos are smaller and not always a cure for week hands.
BUT, if the pistol is shot at the range for enjoyment it does not have to be an UN-enjoyable experience.
Hand loads can be used and the spring rate can be adjusted for them allowing the slide to have less rearward force while compressing the spring.
For range use, try this, draw the slide back for the shooter and use the slide lock.
Now have the shooter load 5 rounds -- insert the mag and drop the slide with the slide release. Shoot the pistol to slide lock ( until empty ) Load a mag,insert the mag and drop the slide again with the slide release. This can be done over and over and the shooter has never had to draw the slide back.
OR, just face the fact the pistol is a poor choice for the shooter.

 

[todd51]

Just an update to the reduced power springs. I replaced the factory recoil spring with a progressive Wolf 14# and the main/hammer spring with a Wolf 19#. This combination has eliminated my problem and I can comfortably cycle the action and could easily clear a malfunction should one occur. Took the pistol to the range and was well pleased with the performance, no problems of any kind firing my reloads of a 200gr. Missouri LSWC over 3.8grs. of WW231 and a COL of 1.235. This is strictly a range use gun and a little more time should improve these 50 foot off hand shots.

THANK YOU ALL FOR THE ASSISTANCE, you have increased an old geezer's joy.
http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb347/todd511/Ruger%20SR1911/DSCF0011_zps8359bac4.jpg

 

[dakota1911]

Since the first post I did put the 16lb and 14lb springs from a new Colt Gold Cup I bought in Sept. of last year in a Ruger SR1911. Both functioned fine and the Ruger spring worked fine in the Gold Cup. I was shooting 230gr Win. in both guns. I would worry about the effects on the pistol longterm if I was going to shoot a lot with a light spring and normal 230gr factory loads, but that is me.

I have not played with the progressive springs. The ones I am aware of are from Wolff I think. Not sure how they would work.

 

[1911Tuner]

The 1911 was not made by browning to utilize a 14# recoil spring.
The original design was with a 16# recoil spring and a 23# main spring.
Please do a little research so folks don't get confused.

The original recoil/action spring was never specified in "pounds." It was specified in wire diameter and number of turns...32.75 turns of .043 diameter music wire. Comparing that to Wolff's 32 turn 14-pound spring, it works out to about 14.5 pounds at full compression, and 13.75 pounds at full slide travel as installed in the gun.

Nor was the mainspring so specified. Like the recoil spring...it was number of turns/wire diameter. Original specs work out to be 22-23 pounds.

And, Browning's wasn't the only hand in the 1911. He had at his disposal a team of Colt's top engineers to assist and work out the details. Browning didn't have an engineering degree, so a few engineers came in handy.

Those guys burned a lotta midnight oil workin' out the right spring rates. Might not be a bad idea to assume that they knew what they were doin'.

 

[1911Tuner]

Simple cure is to cock the hammer before racking the slide and use the opposing push or the overhand method instead of the slingshot.

You can drop the recoil spring down a couple pounds. It won't hurt a thing. The recoil spring's function is returning the slide to battery...not buffering slide to frame impact. The slide doesn't hit the frame all that hard anyway. The original spring used in the early pistols was about 14.5 pounds at full compression and 13.75 at full slide travel as installed in the gun...so 18 pounds is way yonder more than it needs, and 16 is a gracious plenty.

As an added bonus, you'll notice that the recoil isn't quite as sharp with less spring. With achy hands, every little bit helps.

 

[1911Tuner]

Back to the question of ordnance specifications on the recoil spring...

Sometime after the change to the 1911 "Improved" aka the 1911A1, the spring was changed. The wire diameter became .044 inch and the number of turns shortened to 30. Again going to Wolff 16-pound springs of the same diameter with 32 turns...it again works out to around 14.5 pounds.

Why did they shorten the spring?

The troops were havin' a little trouble controlling the long, squirmy 32.75 turn spring when they reassembled the pistol after a field strip.

And I double-checked. The original tested at 13.55 pounds installed...not 13.75 as I erroneously stated. I can only plead old age and a failing memory, like most everything else these days. If I was a dog, they'd probably wanna put me to sleep.

Mea culpa. Apologies and cold brews all around.

 

[todd51]

Thank you 1911 Tuner for all the info. I know well about the old age problems, ha.

 

[dakota1911]

I went shooting a couple days ago with a SR1911 and a new Colt Gold Cup. I did flip the springs and the SR1911 was not as hard to pull with the 16 lb Colt spring. A little off thread but the Gold Cup did fine with the Ruger Spring. I then tried the Colt "green" spring (14lb) and it worked fine also and was easy to pull back the slide on. Wolff makes a kit with a bunch of springs in it. Might be worth a look. I have not yet played enough with the progressive or flat springs to say much other than they work.