Redhawk - Leading advice

[Iron Mike Golf]

I picked up a used, 25 year old RH (stainless hunter in .44 mag) a month ago. It's my first revolver and I have put a few hundred rounds though it and have been enjoying it very much. I plan on hunting whitetail with it this season.

I bought some 245 grain LSWC-BB from a local caster. I shot 50 of these last night over 19.5 grains of 2400. I got a good bit of leading. I figure between the bevel base and the 21-22 BNH that is expected.

While cleaning, though, I noticed markings going across the lands. I don't have a borescope, but from my (middle-aged) naked eye, I am thinking maybe tool marks?

I am at least the third owner and have no idea the round count on the barrel. The chamber throats seem OK, based on what I have read about the "finger tip" test. The revolver shoots just fine. Best group so far is 1.75 inch at 110 yards using Speer 210 Gold Dots over 27.5 gr Win 296. I have fired about 300 rounds of XTP and GDHP rounds working up loads.

What do I do to reduce leading? Softer alloy? Shoot a mess of jacketed rounds first to try to smooth things out? I am reluctant to hand lap the bore.

Thanks.

 

[hittman]

Hello IronMike ~

While I have NO idea how to help you, I will suggest that maybe putting this post also in the Ruger-Smithing Section might help. Might find more experts there.

Best of luck in your search.

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

Thanks, hitman. WILCO

 

[Ferdinand]

It's tough to say what might be going on there. I'd inquire with the caster to see what he thinks - and can he say what the alloy is? With straight wheel weight mix, I think you might be pushing the limits of a non-GC bullet.

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

I'd inquire with the caster to see what he thinks - and can he say what the alloy is?

From the caster's website: "We use a mix of 92% lead, 6% antimony, and 2% tin. This mix tests 7-8 on the Saeco Tester, or 21-22 on the Brinnel scale."

I am thinking the bevel base and high hardness can't be helping me here.

 

[Ferdinand]

That's great to see that the caster has a uniform recipe and isn't simply using whatever they scrounge. Give them a call and get their thoughts on your observations - they probably can provide a lot of good info. I haven't been casting long, but I've come to doubt the idea that softer lead is less prone to barrel leading than hard lead. Another critical variable is the size of the bullets - different molds yield different diameters, and if they are sized, it could be .429 or something greater. I've no idea what Ruger bores run for dimensions.

You might try to back the charge down and see what happens. Or slug the bore and see how the dims compare to your purchased slugs.

I have a suspicion that you'll be casting your own before this is all over.

 

[TDF]

My Hornady manual says that load is up around 1300fps out of a 7.5" barrelled revolver. I think you're stressing the limits of the bullet. Does it lead if shot at lower velocities? I doubt lowering the hardness would help. A plain base would help. A gas checked design would probably solve your problem.

TDF

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

I can sure give a lower charge a shot or 50. Thanks, TDF.

 

[BearStopper]

From everything I have read on the subject, leading is caused by the bullet failing to obturate to bore size which allows gas leakage around the bullet, which in turn melts the lead and deposits it in your barrel. A suggestion from this train of thought says to push the bullet faster increasing obturation and better seal but if you are already rocking it at 1300 that may not be a good option. I personally would verify bullet and bore diameters for a proper fit, and go with a softer alloy to see if that will fix the problem. Having your barrel lapped is a very good option with lots of benefits. I have a custom rifle that is a breeze to clean and ridiculously accurate with its lapped barrel.

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

I personally would verify bullet and bore diameters for a proper fit, and go with a softer alloy to see if that will fix the problem.

That's my plan for now, along with checking throat diameters.

This is a stainless model and I suspect the bore has few rounds through it and is a tad rough. I do get easily visible copper fouling shooting JHPs.

It shoots real nice groups and I'd hate to mess that up by improper lapping.

 

[Snyd]

Step one-Proper Fit! Forget everything else including obturation. You need to slug the bore. It's probably .429. The boolits need to be .430. Measure the throats. Can you push a .430 boolit through? If not and that's what you're shooting, then the boolit is getting swaged down and the lead in the cylinder is getting blasted down the bore. Ideally you'd want is .429 bore, .430 boolit and .435 throats.

Step Two- alloy hardness and velocity. Without step one this is waste of time, effort and money.

Where is the leading? Forcing cone and some of the barrel? The whole length of the barrel?

Where are the "tool marks"? Where the barrel screws into the frame?

Clean the heck out of the bore to get rid of all copper fouling. Copper fouling can cause bad leading.

 

[flatgate]

I've not had good luck with BB bullets.

I've had great results with GC bullets.

flatgate

 

[WESHOOT2]

Do NOT fu...mess with a barrel that shoots groups like that.
Simply try different bullets (which is why the great companies offer samples).

Beartooth

Cast Performance

Meister

Penn

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

I need to pick up a micrometer, but my calipers show .429 on the bullets. Looks like I need different bullets for sure.

 

[Ferdinand]

Head on over to:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/

This forum is 100% dedicated casting. I'll bet that you can find someone there to sell you some bullets to try. Then sell larger quantities if they work well.

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

Thanks for the tip, Ferdinand.

I got a micrometer today and slugged the bore. Groove diameter is .429, as expected. The bevel base bullets are a little shy of .430. They mic .4296 to .4298.

I had used a Lee FCD, too. I've read this can swage the bullet in the case, so I loaded up another 50 rounds with the same load data, but used an RCBS seater/crimper to both seat and crimp.

I ordered some flat base Keith 250 gr from another caster. I'll get those in a couple weeks.

 

[tuner]

+100 on what Ferdinand said but the absolute best collection of information I have ever found regarding cast bullets, alloys, Brinell hardness, sizing and fit of bullets plus much more is at http://www.lasc.us/. Do yourself a favor and go there and start reading. You will do that for several nights and come out knowing a lot more then when you started!

If your pistol shoots 1.75 inches consistently at 110 yards I don’t know if I would try to fix anything!

 

[chaos]

In My opinion. Bevel Based Bullets are trash.

Hard lube (that commercial casters use, as it is easier for shipping) is trash as well. Not too conducive to accuracy, esp when a little chunk flys off and the rest stays on the slug on its way to target. Ever open up a box and see some of the hard lube missing out of the lube grooves?

You slug is likely too small as well.

Get rid of the LFCD in pistol calibers when using cast, they WILL size down your slug

I run my homecast slugs sized at .430 out of my SBH's ( many think this is too small) with great accuracy and Zero leading. I use Javelina 50/50 lube and water drop straight wheel weight alloy. Alot of folks wont use anything Alox based.

Not saying my way is the only way, as there are many differing opinions on what works.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/

There is a wealth of information to help you on this website.

Good luck,

Chaos

 

[WESHOOT2]

I have had stellar results using numerous BB bullets in numerous diameters and weights from numerous manufacturers through numerous launch platforms; I have had the occassional fer-crap result, too.

Pretty much, lube is lube.


But by far I've had great results. I assume it's because of the bullets chosen (and oh my I've tried many), and my process.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Over on the "other" RugerForum, IOWEGAN offers the following . . .

"Matching bullet hardness to chamber pressure is the key to accurate and foul free
loads. The concept is simple …. it takes a given pressure to force a bullet to obturate.
(bump up in diameter) The higher the chamber pressure, the harder the bullet must be.
The process is a bit complicated and requires some math.
To compute bullet hardness, divide the chamber pressure by 1400 if rated in psi or 1440
if rated in CUP. Example: a 38 Special with a 158 gr lead bullet has a max chamber
pressure of 17,000 psi; 17,000/1400=12.1 so a BHN 12 bullet would be optimum. A 38
target load with a 148 gr bullet generates about 14,000 psi; 14,000/1400=10 so a BHN 10
bullet would be optimum. A 38 Special +P load with a 158 gr bullet generates a max
chamber pressure of 20,000 psi. 20,000/1400=14.2 so a BHN 14 bullet would be best. As
long as the BHN number is reasonably close to the computed value, the bullet will
obturate properly and shoot quite well. In the above example with the +P load, any bullet
from BHN 13 to BHN 15 will suffice. When there is a significant mismatch between
chamber pressure and bullet hardness, the bullets will leave a nasty lead deposit in the
barrel, which builds up more with each shot and destroys accuracy."

This is a brief excerpt from his lengthy, very detailed post "Lead Bullets and Revolvers".

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

Thanks Ale-8(1). That's a good read. Looks like I have several things working against me. The good news isd this will probably get me into casting my own!

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Yes, it appears to be quite good info. My problem is that I have been too cheap to buy a chronograph to check velocities and a hardness tester to be sure I'm using the hardness I think I am. I've had some bullets checked by a friend with a tester, and they were not what they were advertised to be. Neither have I purchased any of the neat balistic software available to allow me to massage all the data.

I always thought reloading was gonna be a money-saver. Now I understand that it's an excuse to buy more neat toys. Gotta love it.

 

[tiger955]

Try wrapping a few strands of copper "Chore Boy" scrub pad around a bore brush to get the lead out. Works good and won't hurt the bore if you use the all copper pad. Shooting the lead out with jacketed bullets is a myth, it just flattens and smears the lead so it looks like it is gone.

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

Try wrapping a few strands of copper "Chore Boy" scrub pad around a bore brush to get the lead out. Works good and won't hurt the bore if you use the all copper pad. Shooting the lead out with jacketed bullets is a myth, it just flattens and smears the lead so it looks like it is gone.

Yep. Went to my local Ace Hardware and cleaned out the Chore Boys 3 weeks ago. I have half a dozen on hand.

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

I always thought reloading was gonna be a money-saver. Now I understand that it's an excuse to buy more neat toys. Gotta love it.

I always seem to get a gun instead of a chrony. Been meaning to get one for all year. Now that I reload, I shoot all my savings down range. Reloading lets me shoot as much as I have time for.

 

[gramps]

Tuner wrote: "If your pistol shoots 1.75 inches consistently at 110 yards I don’t know if I would try to fix anything!" I agree. I wish mine would do that at 25 yds! This thread has pointed out that I may be swaging the bullets down with the Lee FCD. So I'll need to try some without that step. I still need to slug my gun (all my slugs are elsewhere). No leading in my gun. Then again haven't shot more than 20 full power mags at a time.
gramps

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

I shot 50 rounds of 7.0 gr Titewad and did not use the FCD for crimping. That should put it somewhere around 1000-1100 fps. Much improved. Groups opened up during the 5th cylinder and I saw some fouling in the middle third of the bore. I inspected the bore after each cylinder. No fouling after 4 cylinders, though.

A tight patch as a start to cleanup did not show lead. Well, maybe one tiny particle. I could only see it when the light hit the right angle. Before, I got slivers and flakes of lead during cleaning. I think most of the fouling tonight was powder. I am going to work up some morelow power loads and take my boresnake to the range next time.

I have it zeroed for hunting. This load hits point of aim at 50 feet. Groups are not as tight as my hunting load, though.

 

[Nasty Ned]

Pay attention to what SNYD said in his post. Fit is everything. Check your cylinder throats and size to them, not your barrel..

Also your forceing cone in the barrel should be fixed with a Brownells tool. For some reason most all factories do not pay the best of attention to the cones.

Best of luck!!!

 

[2 dogs]

Iron Mike, Synd, has given you the most correct advise so far.

Bevel base bullets are not the best place to start when you are looking for a handload that will duplicate what you are getting with the XTP bullet.

Bullet fit to the cylinder thraot and then the barrel is critical. Calipers only measure to .001 and you need to measure closer than thatl I use a micrometer. I would suggest the easiest thing at this point would be to send your cylinder to a good smith (Harton did my Redhawk) and once you get it back he will tell you EXACTLY what size your throats are.

So, lets say you get it back, and your throats are .431 dia. Thats the dimension you need to START with a cast bullet. Now, just cuz you bought a box of bullets and they say they are .431 dont mean a thing. You have to MEASURE them to be sure. A flat base is good and at the velocity youwant to run I would strongly suggetst a Gas Check bullet. If a .431 fits but still wants to show a bit of lead, try a .432 dia bullet.

Please let me know if I can help you further in any way. I happen to have a couple of partial boxes of GC Bearthooth bullets I could let you have pretty reasonably if you so care to try them.

Lead Bullet Technology has a good book on the subject. So does Beartooth. Castboolits.gunloads.com is also a treasure trove of information. There is also quite a bit of good information here.

You say you have shot 300 jacketed bullets through your barrel. IMO that is enough to have knocked off any high spots, but if you are shooting the biggetst bullet that fits your cylinder throat and still seeing some leading some firelapping may be in order.

Finally be sure to clean all the lead out of your barrel before do anymore shooting and every 6 shots thereafter until you see the results you want to see. I use a worn 44 brush wrapped with a copper chore girl pot cleaner which works like a hot knife thru soft butter.

Finally, what you WANT to see, when you shoot cast, is a barrel that is free of any lead, maybe a powder granule or two, but also a STAR of lubricant at the muzzle.

No need to suffer. For my part, there aint nothing better than getting a guy on target. Please call on me if I can help you further.

 

[2 dogs]

Iron Mike, how about an update? Did we cure yourleading woes?