Ranblin' on.............

[Bob Wright]

I'm still a bit puzzled, though losing non sleep over it, about my recent experience with my .44 Specials. First this one, a Three Screw Blackhawk .357 Magnum re-born as a .44 Special:



And this Johnny-come-lately Flat Top:



I had been using SR-4756 for a long time, but when I heard it was to be discontinued, I worked up a good accurate load, using 8.0 grs. HS-6 with a 230 gr. cast SWC from Missouri Bullets.

Recetly I was given a partial box of Speer 240 gr. swaged SWCs, maybe 100 gone out of the box. So I loaded a few with my 8.0 grs. of HS-6, but loaded some with 7.0 grs. Winchester 231. I've used 231 with great success in the past, so knew it was a time proven powder.

On a recent trip to the range, using the Three Screw, I fired, alternately, ten shot groups at ten yards, using a 2 3/4" dia. stick-on target. The HS-6 load shot as expected, but the 231 load keyholed dramatically at that distance. Comments here on another post suggested undersized bullets, too soft lead, or barrel leading. Note these bullets were from the same box, and loads were fired alternately.

This past Saturday, I used the same two handloads, but switched guns, going to the Flat Top. The results were that both loads shot with very good accuracy with no sign of keyholing from the 231 load. The 231 load grouped very well, printing maybe 1/2" lower at that distance that the HS-6 load.

For some unexplained reason, the Three Screw just didn't like the Speer bullet and 7.0 grs. of Winchester 231.

A rather painful realization has surfaced in that I don't shoot as well as I once did. I seem to see the sights well enough, but age seems to have played tricks on my muscles!


Bob Wright

 

[bogus bill]

Bob, it`s a fact of old age. I have developed the shakes to where I am thinking of trying gold panning.

 

[Bob Wright]

Bob, it`s a fact of old age. I have developed the shakes to where I am thinking of trying gold panning.

Naw, couldn't be old age. Why, I'm still young!


Bob Wright

 

[grobin]

I'd guess that the twist is different between the guns.

 

[Bob Wright]

I'd guess that the twist is different between the guns.

Even so, why does one load stabilize and the other does not? Same bullet, velocities almost identical.

Bob Wright

 

[Clovishound]

I was talking to my brother on the phone and he asked about our Dad's old "Luger". I said, you mean the Colt? He said, no, the Luger he had. I told him it was a Colt Challenger, and it's sitting in my safe as we speak. I'm pretty sure it was the only handgun he ever owned when my brother and I were around.

I guess the fixed barrel makes it look a little like a Luger.

 

[grobin]

Checkout http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/09/ballistics-tip-understanding-bullet-stability-twist-rate-and-mv/
And other articles. I don't see any chronograph information what makes you think that velocities are the same?

What is the twist rate? If there is a significant difference that would explain things.
Also checkout http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

 

[Bob Wright]

Checkout http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/09/ballistics-tip-understanding-bullet-stability-twist-rate-and-mv/
And other articles. I don't see any chronograph information what makes you think that velocities are the same?

What is the twist rate? If there is a significant difference that would explain things.
Also checkout http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

True, I don't have chronograph data. But loading data indicates the velocities are approximately 915 f.p.s. and 920 f.p.s. This plus the fact that felt recoil is equal for both loads, and groups are within 1/2" of each other.

This is a custom bored barrel on the Three Screw, bored by Dave Clements from a .357 Magnum barrel. So if twist rate were the culprit, bullets from both loads would behave the same way.

The fact remains, that the bullets are from the same box, and one loaded with HS-6 does fine, while the 231 tumbles.

Barrel leading? Then firing the next group of the HS-6 load would tumble also, but does not.

I no longer am able to chronograph, but from experience I get a good idea of velocity from the point of impact of the groups I shoot. My gun is sighted in for the 240 gr. bullet at 915 f.p.s. Even slight differences in velocity will print differently. The group of the 231 load prints 1/2" lower than my usual group, therefore I conclude a slight increase in velocity.

Not that I followed up these two loads with a second .44 Special and both shot normally.

Bob Wright

 

[Rodfac]

Bob, I've chrono'd that 231 load (7 grains) pushing a home cast 240 gr. LSWC and got 920 fps in wheel weight alloy, (est. 9-11 hardness). Same gun, 4-5/8" Flat Top Ruger .44 Special. Accuracy was close to an inch at 25 yds. But I've never worked with HS6...so no data for that powder.

Based on your info, I'd guess at an undersized bullet with a too soft alloy. Even softer than my home cast wheel weight slug. Another guess is that the cylinder throats are markedly different, comparing one of your guns to the other, allowing gas blow by if the swagged bullet isn't big enough.

Lastly, checking the relative burning rate of HS6 vs. Win 231 in my Sierra manual (for 220 gr Jacketed bullets), and note that there's over 2.5 gr difference in top-level loads giving similar velocity. This leads me to wonder if you're getting heavy bullet base deformation with 231 that's just not happening with the slower burning HS6.

Just as an addendum, Win 231 is my favorite powder for the .44 Special with home cast 240 gr LSWC's when gilt edged accuracy is the goal. In my guns, 6.5 grains will produce sub 1.5" groups on demand from all four of my .44 Spls.: two Ruger blued Flat Tops, a SS Ruger Flat Top w/ 4-5/8" bbl. and a 6-1/2" Smith M24. Seven grains of Win 231 will give me chrono'd velocities identical to Skelton's famous load of 7.5 gr of Unique, and very similar accuracy.

HTH's Rod
As always, these are my loads, worked up for my guns, if interested, loaders should consult a good manual, and consider all the pressure implications.

 

[Bob Wright]

rodfac said:

Based on your info, I'd guess at an undersized bullet with a too soft alloy. Even softer than my home cast wheel weight slug. Another guess is that the cylinder throats are markedly different, comparing one of your guns to the other, allowing gas blow by if the swagged bullet isn't big enough.

Hold on, now. Note that this first manifested itself in the same gun. My Ruger Three Screw. The bullets were Speer swaged, the only difference was the powder used, and loads were shot alternately. Cylinder throats are fine, and have been since getting the gun back from Dave Clements some 9,000 rounds ago.

When I duplicated my firing, using a different gun, both loads shot exceptionally well.

Lastly, checking the relative burning rate of HS6 vs. Win 231 in my Sierra manual (for 220 gr Jacketed bullets), and note that there's over 2.5 gr difference in top-level loads giving similar velocity. This leads me to wonder if you're getting heavy bullet base deformation with 231 that's just not happening with the slower burning HS6.

If that be the case, then why don't I get base deformation when shooting the load in the Ruger Flat Top?

Bob Wright

 

[grobin]

I don't see any reason why the twist rates would be the same. Slug the barrels! IME (LIMITED) is that estimates velocities can easily be off 20%. If you are near the edge of the stability reason that would do it. If you can try a reduced load with the same cases. Also check case weights and water volumes.

 

[mike7mm08]

Numerous variables could be looked at as previously mentioned. For whatever reason it would seem that the 231 load is not generating as high of pressures in the three screw. A such the bullet is not expanding enough to engrave the rifling very well, in turn not stabilizing and keyholing. A quick look of reloading data shows 231 running at lower pressures than HS 6 to begin with so anything with the gun could compound the problem.

I encountered this with my Ruger #1 in 475 when trying to find a reduced load. Don't have data in front of me. But the end results were similar velocity loads performed very differently depending on the pressure generated by the powder. Low pressure powder loads would keyhole, recovered bullets barely had scratches from the rifling. Higher pressures either through a different powder or heavier loads would eliminate keyholeing and recovered bullets exhibited nice deep engraving of the rifling.

 

[Bob Wright]

Just looked at Hodgdon's site and they no longer show any loads for Winchester 231 in the .44 Special, showing 244 instead. And Winchester only shows a 225 gr. bullet for the .44 Special with 231 powder. And both loading sites show pressures only up to 13,000 C.U.P for .44 Special loads.

But I rule out most culprits advanced so far.

Rifling twist: No problems encountered with this bullet using this barrel.

Undersize chamber throats: Not likely. They haven't shrunk in ten years.

Low pressure: Not likely. Worked well in second revolver.

Deformed bullet base/undersized bullets: All bullets from same box.

I'm left with the fact that my gun just didn't like 7.0 grs. of Winchester 231.


Bob Wright

 

[Laserbait]

Bob, I think the Win 231 load is too hot for the soft swaged bullets, and it's blowing the bullet right through the lands and grooves.

HP38 is the same powder as Win 231, and it shows 5.2 grains for a 240 grain cast SWC in 44 Special. Try backing the load down to 5 grains of 231. It's what I run for my load in the 44 special GP100 with the 240 grain cast bullets.

 

[Bob Wright]

Bob, I think the Win 231 load is too hot for the soft swaged bullets, and it's blowing the bullet right through the lands and grooves.

HP38 is the same powder as Win 231, and it shows 5.2 grains for a 240 grain cast SWC in 44 Special. Try backing the load down to 5 grains of 231. It's what I run for my load in the 44 special GP100 with the 240 grain cast bullets.

Somehow, y'all seem to missing the point: This load shot fine in another Ruger Flat Top.

Recap:

Ruger Three Screw .44 Special: 240 gr. Speer, 8.0 grs. HS-6 ----Good load
240 gr. Speer, 7.0 grs. Win. 231--Keyholed



Ruger Flat Top New Model .44 Spl.: 240 gr. Speer, 8.0 grs. HS-6---Good load
240 gr. Speer, 7.0 grs. Win. 231--Good load






Bob Wright

 

[Laserbait]

I think you'd have a point if the barrels were cut from the same rifled blank.

 

[Bob Wright]

I think you'd have a point if the barrels were cut from the same rifled blank.

That is not the case certainly. The .44 Flat Top is relatively new from the factory. The Three Screw .44 barrel was the original .357 Magnum rebored by Dave Clements. Both guns are capable of very fine accuracy and have proved themselves time and again with me.


Bob Wright

 

[Galaxiedan]

1st targets say 7 1/2 yards, second set is 15 yards. That will make group size grow

 

[Bob Wright]

1st targets say 7 1/2 yards, second set is 15 yards. That will make group size grow

But won't make the bullets keyhole!

Even at 100 yards, my bullets don't hit sideways!

Bob Wright

 

[rjn]

You are using a very soft bullet for a 23kpsi load (win 231). The HS-6 load is only at 15kpsi. Slight differences in front-end of the revolver results in keyholing or not keyholing. Simple as that.

 

[Bob Wright]

You are using a very soft bullet for a 23kpsi load (win 231). The HS-6 load is only at 15kpsi. Slight differences in front-end of the revolver results in keyholing or not keyholing. Simple as that.

Not so. Why doesn't it keyhole when used in other revolvers?

O.K. So far the problems might be, as offered by correspondents: 1) Bullet too soft (2) undersized cylinder throats (3) Rifling pitch wrong (4) Powder charge too heavy (5) Bullet undersized.

I don't buy any of these. So far, the load has worked well in two .44 Special revolvers, a Ruger Flat Top and a Colt New Frontier. And, in the Ruger Three Screw, other similar loads work very well. Both Ruger revolvers have 4 5/8" barrels, the Colt a 5 1/2" barrel. I have not tried it in a 7 1/2" barreled Colt.

As to these bullets, the 240 gr. Speer swaged SWC, it has worked well at 1400 f.p.s. (Chronographed) when fired from a .44 Magnum Super Blackhawk. This with 25.0 grs. IMR-4227.


So far, all have ventured either something is wrong with my gun, or with the bullet I am using. Yet the gun performs well with other ammunition, and the bullet performs well when used with other guns.

My original question remains: Why does this powder not perform well with this bullet in this gun?

Bob Wright

 

[rjn]

"My original question remains: Why does this powder not perform well with this bullet in this gun?"

It is the combination of the the operating pressure of 23kpsi with a soft alloy bullet along with some dimensional aspect of the revolver. I can help you figure out which specific dimensional aspect(s) may be the culprit if you can answer the following questions:

For each revolver: How many grooves does each barrel have (tells me how wide the lands are)?
What are the bore dimension (does the bullet fit the bore properly)?
What are the cylinder throat dimensions (does the bullet fit the bore properly)?
Do either barrels have thread choke?
What is the barrel to cylinder gap (gas cutting)?
What is the length of each cylinder (bullet jump factor).

What is the OD of the bullet? (does the bullet fit the bore properly)
What is the OAL for each load? (bullet jump and pressure)
What is the BHN of the bullets? The swaged CCI bullets I have measured are BHN of 8 which is certainly on the soft side.

The one thing I can tell you for absolutely sure is that it doesn't have anything to do with the revolver not liking something.

Ask yourself, why will a bullet keyhole...and then answer with because it is not stabilized. There is no other reason. Then ask yourself why wouldn't a bullet stabilize and then answer with because it is not spinning properly. There is no other reason.

Then ask yourself why wouldn't a bullet spin properly and then answer with because it is too small for the bore, it stripped because the alloy is not strong enough, it passed thru thread choke area (which I think we can eliminate), because it was gas cut (which essentially makes it too small for the bore), the twist is all wrong (which I think we can eliminate), the velocity is too low (which I think we can eliminate).

If nothing else try and recover fired bullets and check front land of bullet for stripping and check base of bullet for gas cutting.

 

[Bob Wright]

rjn:

Then ask yourself why wouldn't a bullet spin properly and then answer with because it is too small for the bore, it stripped because the alloy is not strong enough, it passed thru thread choke area (which I think we can eliminate), because it was gas cut (which essentially makes it too small for the bore), the twist is all wrong (which I think we can eliminate), the velocity is too low (which I think we can eliminate).

I go back to my original post: The same bullets performed well when loaded with 8.0grs. of HS-6. It keyholed in this revolver with a charge of 7.0 grs. of Winchester 231.

Both loads have performed well in another Ruger .44 Special and in a Colt New Frontier.

As to thread choke, this barrel was a .357 Magnum barrel. It was bored out and re-rifled by Dave Clements. I have all confidence in his work, so this gun least of all should suffer from thread choke. The same is true for the cylinder.


Bob Wright

 

[rjn]

Okie Dokie

 

[snakeeyes4445]

Switch bullets......I did after trying that one. It's not your fault nor worth wondering about. Great read though and thought provoking.

 

[Bob Wright]

Switch bullets......I did after trying that one. It's not your fault nor worth wondering about. Great read though and thought provoking.

As I said to begin with, I'm not losing any sleep over the matter.

But I do wonder, as I do about many things, gun related or not. I have this interest in everything and always want to know more. How steam locomotives work, how wings make an airplane fly, how steam boats work. When I smoked a pipe, I wanted to know how pipes were made, and from what, and why.

And, I have exhausted my supply of these free bullets.

Bob Wright

 

[LAH]

Have you tried the load again? You have my attention here Bob.

 

[Bob Wright]

Have you tried the load again? You have my attention here Bob.

I'll have to check my ammunition supply. I have no more of these bullets left to load, and I think I may have finished up the batch with HS-6 powder.


Bob Wright

 

[coach]

As I said to begin with, I'm not losing any sleep over the matter.


And, I have exhausted my supply of these free bullets.

Bob Wright

Problem solved. On to the next batch of free bullets.