Question for the older carpenters

[Mega Twin]

In the last 2 houses we have lived in,I have had to redo the bathroom floors.
The material that had deteriorated was that pressed saw dust type board.
I was just curious as to how this stuff was marketed when it came out.Was it supposed to be moisture resistant.or did people just use it because it was cheaper?

 

[Busterswoodshop]

Used because it was cheaper.

 

[coach]

Do you mean the sub floor or possibly a thin underlayment over the sub floor. The underlayment typically a Masonite type product is used to even out the floor for a finish. Not appropriate for under tile, especially in a bath room and wet conditions. Nowadays cement board is more commonly used as an underlayment. I'd say what was done was cheap and held up long enough to look good.

 

[contender]

While I'm not a contractor,,, I can say I see a lot of homes built with the cheapest materials,, the quickest & easiest way possible,, all while the selling price is high because it "looks new & pretty."
Another mantra I see; "The higher up you go,,, the crappier the work."
I do minor home repairs caused by animals,,, OR,,,, OR,,,,, because a builder failed to properly build a home in a way to prevent critters from entering. (Usually the latter.)

A very common repair I make. Gable vents. Built to allow an attic of dead space to vent & not cause expansion or contraction due to heat or cold. Triangular or rectangular in shape, up at the top of a wall,,, with angled slats to prevent water from entering. Behind the slats,,, inside the attic,,, simple screen wire stapled to the framework. SUPPOSEDLY to keep critters & bugs out. Well,,,,,, bats & squirrels will defeat that simple screen easily. I know,, I fix a LOT of them.

Bathroom & in general,,, all floors & now even a lot of roofing is NOT plywood. It's a type of stuff called OSB. It's SUPPOSED to be water resistant,,, but it will not hold up over the long term if subjected to water. The older type of this stuff was called "Chip board." That stuff,, if it got wet,, swelled up & crumbled worse that a sea castle during an incoming tide.

Go to a home building supply store & price materials. Good quality plywood vs. OSB. Look at the cost per sheet,,, and then multiply that by the number of sheets it takes to build a house. And that's just one place builders cut expenses. If a home is being built to "spec" figure it will "look beautiful" to prospective buyers,,, but will NOT be quality construction usually. Especially in places where the buyer is not involved,,, such as a development that is being built to sell units after they are done.

And we think Ruger QC is bad,,, ! I can assure you a $250,000 home will cost you a LOT more in repairs you can't see or in a few years after use. And the homeowner gets to foot the bill.


I just looked at a very expensive home in an upscale development. Overall,,, the general construction of the home was better than what we normally see. The house is 1 year old. HOWEVER,,, the designer/architect had the chimney about 1 ft away from a 14 ft wide dormer that was part of the open cathedral ceiling. The roofing rafters are on 2 ft centers. When constructed,,, the builder,, or the architect FAILED to take in account the weight of the dormer in relation to the chimney. As such,, the roof has a distinct 3"-4" sag in-between the chimney & the dormer. No support header or bracing to compensate for the weight. Cutting corners & expenses allows for increased profits for builders.
Oh, and my Miss Penny used to work for a commercial builder. The entire time she worked for him,,, he had ongoing lawsuits,,, for bad work. The sad thing,,, some of them were due to the architect failing to properly design something. I recall a door that opened to a 14 ft drop. No stairs, nothing,,, just a door. And the architects have it in their contracts that they are not responsible, saying the builder should know when something is "wrong" & request a "change order." Not once did I ever see any of these lawsuits put blame on the architect, even when clearly their fault.

I know I got off the main topic. But suffice it to say,,,building materials have gotten cheaper,,, unless you are willing to demand higher priced materials. And,, you have to be heavily involved in the construction of a home to make sure it's done right.

 

[warren5421]

What you are talking about is practical board and was used to build a lot of the homes of the late 60's on. It is used as a sub-floor as is hard and cheaper than plywood. It takes a lot of water to make it come apart or a small leak over a long time. Unless you use plywood made for a wet area, like marine plywood, you will have plywood coming apart also.

 

[Don Lovel]

some of the early efforts in particle board were pretty much failures.
Some of the glues used are toxic, especially the smoke of them burning
I always thought it was funny how whenever we pulled up linoleum with that stuff underlayed, it would just disintegrate in big clumps

 

[powder smoke]

While I'm not a contractor,,, I can say I see a lot of homes built with the cheapest materials,, the quickest & easiest way possible,, all while the selling price is high because it "looks new & pretty."
Another mantra I see; "The higher up you go,,, the crappier the work."
I do minor home repairs caused by animals,,, OR,,,, OR,,,,, because a builder failed to properly build a home in a way to prevent critters from entering. (Usually the latter.)

Maybe where you come from been in construction my entire life and never
ever seen what you speak of. Maybe it a southern thing but homes in
the North Country, need to be tough. Heavy snow then rain can put quite a
load on a structure and cold winds will seep into any crevice possible. Building
failures are very rare in these parts. I take pride in my work as most do!

Contractors for the most part are honest hard working folks who strive to
create a quality product. Contractors get a bad rap created by a minority.
Most CARE! ps

 

[toysoldier]

I had to replace the shower surround in my house (built ~1973) because the ceramic tiles had been placed over ordinary gypsum board. I tore it out and used cement board, like it should have been done.

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

Builders for older houses used the cheapest available. People generically refer to all of it as plywood or such. Cheapest is Particle board. It's your basic saw dust that comes apart easy and is vulnerable to moisture. Next is OSB, Oriented Strand Board. That is more expensive and more structural than the particle board. Best of all is what should be used and that is actual plywood. Even with that if you look at it all carefully you will notice that there are ink "Stamps" rolled on each piece. What you are looking for is labeled UND for Underlayment. It's the better grade. There are various layers or PLY's in some 6-8 or more. Cheapest 1/2" might have 3-4 plys. Better 1/2" is 5-6 ply. Problem is you want top pieces with out voids that can easily be stepped through with say a hi-heal shoe. Not sure how the women spell it. You want to use UNDERLAYMENT grade plywood over your joists whether engineered or actual lumber. They are typically T&G and you don't put them tight you leave the space of say an 8d nail between for room for the plywood to expand and contract. Depending on the room or the design people may use carpet padding over that, then carpet, and in the areas where they have vinyl, they might use 1/4 to 3/8 Plywood NO VOIDS, depending on height of carpet over that (I prefer structurewood) but you have to let the builder know what you expect. Things have changed over the years and newer houses will have Underlayment. The issue they try to save money on under that are the joists. The more "bounce" you have and some of it is hard to tell unless you are standing there and someone bigger walks by you can feel the floor flex or bounce. Understand that is not a floor you want to use tile over, because the gout seams will crack out. Code specifies only a certain amount of flex for the joists but the higher quality houses should have virtually none. Lot's of stuff to take into consideration when you are building a house, and to SPEC out. It's never to early to "drop by" and start making inspections. Learn the products, especially if you want to use higher end finishes. It can go bad quickly. It's not enough to "spec out" "construction grade products" as that has a lot of different meanings depending on whose pocket it's coming out of. I trust very few builders (I'll add here, not because they are necessarily TRYING to cheat you, but if you want what you want, you need to spell it out or you may not get it) and I've been around them and sold supplies to them for nearly 30 years. Lot's of stuff get left out because they aren't something they standardly do. Like Blocking for curtains and curtain Rods, blocking for towel bars, etc. DON'T ASSUME ANYTHING!!!

 

[powder smoke]

Seems folks have a bad attitude when in comes to builders.

I trust very few builders (I'll add here, not because they are necessarily TRYING to cheat you, but if you want what you want, you need to spell it out or you may not get it) and I've been around them and sold supplies to them for nearly 30 years. Lot's of stuff get left out because they aren't something they standardly do. Like Blocking for curtains and curtain Rods, blocking for towel bars, etc. DON'T ASSUME ANYTHING!!!

Quality equals you get what you pay for, I've been building for the better part of 40
years. I have turned down jobs where the customers budget was not high enough
to build to acceptable standards. The frame is where its at! Cheap materials are
exactly that, BPJ did a decent job sorting out the good from the bad. Thing is and
I'd like to stress There Are Good Builders out there! Too bad there are some with
only dollars in mind. I strongly suggest getting references. ps

 

[Mobuck]

I'm not a carpenter but I've built some stuff over the years. Regardless of the "skill" of the builder, I have to say the quality of materials has deteriorated immensely over the last 20-25 years. That said, choice of materials is a BIG factor in longevity of the build.
I don't even consider "particle board" anymore for ANYTHING. I used to think it was adequate for use where stiffness was needed but moisture resistance was not. A while back, I bought a pickup load of 3/4" and 1" particle board for a shelving project thinking it would be stiff enough for the job. NOPER, I found that it couldn't even support it's own weight. I had to dis-assemble the units and add strengthening slats every 2' making for a very onerous task.
On the other hand, a few years back I was on a "deer house" building binge and as a sort of temporary cost cutting measure, I used some 1/4" OSB labelled as "exterior grade glue". SURPRISE. I ended up having to put one project out before it was finished leaving the OSB exposed (both sides and the edges). It sat in the weather totally exposed for 8 years before the OSB degraded to the point where a strong wind hit the structure and ripped the siding off the screws. Eight years w/o any sort of protection is some pretty good glue. I built some a couple of years back using "exterior grade"(not ground contact) 1/2" plywood and those sheets swelled up like a poisoned pup after a light rain. Had to put them back in the barn to dry and then paint them with deck paint and some of the ply still puckered and separated.

 

[powder smoke]

I'm not a carpenter but I've built some stuff over the years. Regardless of the "skill" of the builder, I have to say the quality of materials has deteriorated immensely over the last 20-25 years.

Choices are made, quality materials ARE available! I like T&G Matched boards for sheathing.
Advantech for sub flooring and Spruce for framing members joist studs & rafters.
"I" joist is a cheap way out, laminated lumber is always vulnerable to moisture.
Interior finishes are all cosmetic once you obtain a sound structure, that is where
a home owner can save a few bucks during construction, a remodel down the road
one can get upgrades as they go.

The substitutes for the Real McCoy usually are a down grade after all money talks
for many! ps

 

[Busterswoodshop]

When jobs go out for bid , people usually look for the lowest bid.
You don't get a low bid using the best material.
As the saying goes " you get what you pay for ".

 

[coach]

In general you get what you pay for, but my BIL, a contractor for 30 years, has told me occasionally won't get a job because he's told his bid was too low. He's a 2 or 3 man show with low overhead and he prices so he makes a decent profit. I've worked with him a few times and have seen his work and he does good work and and uses good materials.
A different thing often times when spec houses are being built.

 

[Cape Cod Terry]

I've always heard it called "Fallaparticle Board" for a good reason.

 

[bobski]

carpenters get duped by product too.
its usually afterwards they realize they've been selling defective product. being a carpenter myself, our industry isn't off the hook. honesty only goes as far as the data presented at the time. I remember holding mercury in my hands and melting lead on roof flashing. all my dad would tell me when I got dizzy was... go take a break. lol. lest I bring up...chinese products?

 

[contender]

Powder smoke,,, I want to apologize to ALL the good contractors out there. I do know some good ones,,, and when we built my addition here,,, I didn't have to shop around,,, as I already knew my guy's work.

As many have said,,, you get what you pay for. And it starts with materials,,, followed by the builders.

But yes,,, I do see a lot of shoddy work. It's why I'm in business. I do minor repairs to fix places that critters use to enter a home. But I also have to back away & suggest that the homeowner get a contractor because the workmanship is so bad,, it needs major repairs.
I have seen 6" fascia on the end of a 2x8, leaving a gap in the roofing OSB. No drip edge, and the shingles hanging over the edge by 3-1/2" to "hide" the gap.
I have repaired dormers where there were boards left out entirely. On one house,,, a triangular hole that was 12-1/2" x 13-1/4" on the short 2 sides. Another dormer,,, had a 9-1/4" x 5-3/4" board missing.
I've put a ladder against a house & have the wall move inward as I climbed up,,, 6"-10". Go inside & find the structural support not attached,, at all.
I have had houses & apartments where the stud walls had NO sheathing,,, just 1/2" blue foam board, covered by lap siding.
Cheap, shoddy work. Slap it up,, make it look pretty,, and sell it to an unsuspecting customer.
Locally, a development like this had a building collapse while under construction. Before anybody could "investigate",,, it was bulldozed & started over. That was on the local news.
Now,, I know I see the worst stuff,, because it's when people have critter problems, I get called. But,, I will relate something else.
My addition,,, my contractor was attaching the soffitt,, using his brad nailer, along the supports & outer edge. The siding helped hold up the inside edge. I followed behind him,,, attaching it with screws. He asked me why I was doing that. I told him of how many soffitts I see hanging down or damaged because of brad nails coming loose or pulled through. He commented that he had never seen that. I came back & said,,, "Yes,,, you build them new,,, I see them 10-20 years down the road. I don't want mine to fall down later on." He stopped,,, thought about it for a few minutes,, and said; "You just made me change how I'm going to build things from now on."
I see a lot of soffitt nails that have missed or have pulled out. Brad guns are nice,,, when properly adjusted,,, but often,, the brads go in too deep.

But,, there are GOOD contractors & builders out there. My helper worked for one when he was able. (He's had both knees replaced & can't climb ladders anymore.) We got a call to a house they had built. The only problem? Interior screen on the gable vents had rotted away due to bat guano. Bats were getting in the attic. The rest of the house was fine.

My apologies to the good ones out there.

 

[contender]

deleted double post.

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

Like Contender and PS, I don't mean to imply that there aren't good contractors out there. BUT, there are a lot of variances in quality of the product. There are "low end" builders and "high end" builders. If you want a quality product it's up to you as much as the builder. You can't expect to get top quality by screwing a guy down to the last dollar. We all need to make a fair margin. That's what we live on. If you try to screw him down there are always ways to cut corners. Look at the materials list he is going to use in the bidding. By the way all "plywoods" use exterior glue. They don't want to be down long enough to switch it out, there is no savings.

As the end consumer you need to educate your self if you expect to get quality or use a realtor who really knows what he is doing to check. Very few have any idea what they are looking at or for. If you don't spec out your touchy issues, don't expect the realtor to get the contractor to add them. I already gave the example, blocking for curtain rods, and towel rods. Do you want handicap bars? Do you want them screwed down to blocking? How many do you want? How much deflection do you want in your floors. Do you want all your drywall, screwed or are nails acceptable in some places. What about the Underlayment, do you want it screwed or can you live with a few squeaks? If you don't want ANY particle board, say so. If you don't want any OSB say so. OSB should be fine for the roof sheathing but don't go beyond the spans that the OSB is stamped for. There are also regional differences in building. In Alaska, NO ONE uses wood exterior doors. Here in Idaho that's considered an upgrade. In Alaska, even the garages are insulated well. In Idaho, many don't insulate garages, which irritates me to no end. Anywhere you can get what ever level of garage door and some are pretty poor. If you want a better one Spec it out and educate yourself to what you want and why. Tell the builder up front. Do you want the cheapest shingle or 30, or 50 year shingles? Do you know why? Do you have any idea what the difference is? What about windows and interior doors. Personally I do not like HC interior doors. Solid Core interior doors are my preference. Find out the difference in price and availability. I said earlier I've been doing this for years. If you want something that is not standard, make sure it get's ordered earlier than the standard. MOST builders have too many different things on their mind to think about ordering something particular for you. If SC doors aren't stocked they need to be ordered or you get what they have. Most Window manufacturers stock certain sizes. If you are picky about the size that's probably a special order. Do you want Tyvek wrap on your house say so. I don't, but that's me. I know a very successful builder in Alaska that builds houses in the lower and higher price ranges. The higher end houses get Tyvek wrap and a higher budget for lighting. That's it. Get educated or take what you get. To some degree building codes do protect you, but there are lots of ways they don't. One example of that, Windows. Some cities have 3-4 different codes in different areas, for windows due to winds, elevation, etc. I've never seen a building inspector check windows for meeting those codes.

 

[powder smoke]

Thanks but no apology needed and the fact that there are questionable people in the
business it is understandable. Many folks have indeed been ripped off.

I learned from an old school builder he was never in any hurry and took the time
to get things right. Thing is you get a good start things fall into place nicely, no chasing
errors all the way thru the building. Quality materials are still out there, you get
what you pay for.

I do nothing but good work and take no work that does not have the proper budget,
I think that is key. ps

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

True that. Let me say one last thing, I've known a LOT of contractors over the years. If you don't get what you want, that is your fault IF YOU DIDN'T SPECIFY WHAT YOU DO WANT. Of all the contractors I know, NOT ONE OF THEM IS A MIND READER.

 

[volshooter]

Been in the biz since the late 70's. Seen em come and go.
OSB is a good product when used in the correct application and proper installment. Particle board is crap, do they still make that?
I use ADVANTEC for floors. Stronger than plywood and much more durable.
All materials like these must be protected from moisture and installed correctly to be reliable.

General contractors get a bad rap for sure. Your contractor is only as good as his subcontractors. It is my opinion that it is the subcontractors that cut corners.
Been building for 40+ years, seen a lot of cheaper corners cut. During those years I was always loyal to the homeowner, and got into a lot of crap with subs over material and application.
I have NEVER had a homeowner left unhappy, even if it cost me coins out of my pocket.
My word, quality and reputation are intact.

 

[Ruger45]

The topic seems to have drifted. At the time particle board was considered the most stable substrate. It does not expand and contract with the time of year like wood. So in the day you would have been a quality builder if you used it instead of plywood when making counter tops or laying floors. Now a days advantec and cement board have taken it's place. But it still is the go to material for laminate counter tops. And all the cheap cabinets are made from it.
I would have thought you old guys that have been in the biz for 40 or more years would have known that. :wink: :wink:

 

[Busterswoodshop]

The only time I have seen particle board used for flooring was in mobile homes and trailers.
Out here we have always used plywood for floors and MDF for veneered countertops.
If the floor is tiled then there is a layer of cement board put over it.

If you want particle board cabinets out here you have to go to Home Depot or Lowes.
Every cabinet shop I know of uses plywood for cabinet boxes and hardwood for the face frames.

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

The way I read things we were talking about structural uses. I do not consider particle board appropriate for structural areas especially where moisture may occur. Personally I wouldn't have particle board cabinets on a house I had built. Counter tops do use particle board but any one with half a brain are using HDPB for countertops. Lots of difference.

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

The way I read things we were talking about structural uses. I do not consider particle board appropriate for structural areas especially where moisture may occur. Personally I wouldn't have particle board cabinets on a house I had built. Some people doing Counter tops do use particle board but any one with any experience are using HDPB for countertops. Lots of difference.

 

[Colonialgirl]

In California they use to build what was known as "Throw-up" construction. The hot water heater,furnace and AC were delivered already installed on a slab, set down and pour more concrete around it for the rest of the house; throw up the wall studs put on a roof and then wrap the outside with tar paper and chicken wire; Finish was a sprayed on stucco. They built a load of housing developments that way. Inside was even better, nail up the gypsum board, tape the joints and spray on a texture coating to hide defects; for ceilings, just add some foam particles and spray that on too hiding ALL those defects. Some of it , if you tried to roll latex paint on it would peel off, painting the ceilings worked out to a Gallon per 100 Square feet (10ft x 10ft section). Finger prints?? Scrub too hard and you were back down to the Gypsum board.
Worked for 15 years for DeSoto Paint and Coatings company who made 99+% of ALL Sears paints and learned all that with testing and answering paint complaints (Lab Tech-> Chemist-> Sears Chemist-> Asst Plant Super, Paint Production); 4 semesters of Paint technology LA City College.

 

[volshooter]

I know this, particle board and moisture don't go together.
When particle board was being used a lot, you could watch it swell like a sponge when a drink was spilled on it. Seen it first hand.
I'm sure it is produced better today but I won't be using it.
I have personally replaced hundreds of sheets of that crap that had got wet and turned to chunky sawdust.

 

[Ruger45]

In the last 2 houses we have lived in,I have had to redo the bathroom floors.
The material that had deteriorated was that pressed saw dust type board.
I was just curious as to how this stuff was marketed when it came out.Was it supposed to be moisture resistant.or did people just use it because it was cheaper?

A lot of people telling us how bad the product is. I will not say one way or the other. What I will say is a lot of things are still made from it and most of the people here are typing sitting at a desk made from it or sitting in front of the TV that is sitting on a stand made from it. Yes it turns to crap when it gets wet but it was never designed to get wet. If it is getting wet than some plumber some where did a bad job plumbing not that the product was made bad or misrepresented. It did and does the job it was designed to do. Anyone that has remodeled more than one bathroom can tell you it doesn't matter what the floor is if the plumbing leaks the floor is rotten. Plywood, real wood boards, or particle board none of them like to be wet.
That being said I will not build anything out of it or use it for any reason. But to say a product is junk because the plumber sucked at his job is well... :wink:

 

[volshooter]

Back in the day, I have seen it swell up on account of tobacco spit!
The newer stuff has a better bonding process. I still wont use it, not even for cabinets. Now they call it press board. Solid and sturdy until moisture get to it. Buy a table made with it and put a drink on it without a coaster, you'll understand.

Do ya'll remember the dry flat sponges, one drop of water and the puffed up. The particle board back then would do the same thing.