Protecting people from themselves

[Mobuck]

I got a reminder of just how skillful engineers have become at protecting consumers.
Yesterday evening as we were dismounting the grain header from the combine in order to put the toys away, the 'down' function for the header simply stopped working. It was working perfectly all afternoon but after shutting the engine off for a few minutes while disengaging drive shaft, electrical connectors, and hydraulic hoses when the engine was re-started there was 'up' but no 'down'. We finally reversed the wires(the newer machines are almost totally electric solenoid valve operation) and got the header unhooked.
The rest of the afternoon was spent testing wires, switches, and fuses looking for the failed part(s) to no avail. Finally Son gave up leaving a scatter of removed shields, dismantled control panels, and stuff. He posted his issue on one of the brand specific forums and by this morning some sainted soul had revealed the possible culprit.
Apparently, there's a fail safe lock out controlled by an engine oil pressure sensor that prevents lowering the header w/o the engine running. If the sensor fails, there's no 'down' function. We know the engine has oil pressure so it seems the sensor failed or stuck when the engine was shut down for 5 minutes during the disconnect process. JEEZ, I'd have never thought of that. Part is(or will be) ordered from one of the dealers I'll be driving past this week.
I don't know if I can get all the wires stuffed back into the control console or not so probably best not to try and end up making another mess to sort out.

 

[gramps]

Yeah, safety first? That is why we teach to lock out certain electrical circuits, but when we do a “flag” is put on it so everyone knows what is happening. Ya lost a bunch of time sorting that out. A pox on ENGINEERS!
gramps

 

[gunzo]

Manufacturers have had to push their engineers hard to come up with ways to protect the consumer from themselves & keep the company from getting sued into bankruptcy.

All the safety switches can be a pain, but they've probably saved a limb or 3.

OTOH, all this cost the consumer. Especially the warning labels & half an owners manual about safety that few rarely read. Warning; coffee is hot, that's printed on the cup cost money to print. We pay to read the obvious.

 

[Colonialgirl]

Yeah, safety first? That is why we teach to lock out certain electrical circuits, but when we do a “flag” is put on it so everyone knows what is happening. Ya lost a bunch of time sorting that out. A pox on ENGINEERS!
gramps

Their OTHER job is designing autos and trucks.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

A pox on ENGINEERS! gramps

Yep. Let's go back to using an ox with a single-bottom plow. :roll:

 

[Montelores]

I guess that I don't understand how this is a safety feature.

Maybe the engine is required to be running, implying that there's an operator at the controls in the cab, therefore no inadvertent lowering of the combine head when someone might be underneath?

Such as when maintenance or head removal or attachment is being performed?

It sounds like the electrical solenoid controls allow electronic control of the physical hydraulic valves, probably allowing for more automation. A computer activates the circuit, powers or de-powers the solenoid, hydraulic valve then actuated.

Monty

 

[gramps]

A pox on ENGINEERS! gramps

Yep. Let's go back to using an ox with a single-bottom plow. :roll:

Ok, though I prefer a mule or horse. Engineers made the Monza, which was a rear engine vehicle in the 80’s. You had to DROP the engine to change the spark plugs. Engineers put the one gallon gas tank in the engine compartment of my Troybilt lawn tractor. Not safe!
gramps

 

[blume357]

It's everywhere.... number of years ago my work van would over heat and shut off.... it spent over a month at the mechanics trying to figure out why the engine was over heating.... and ect.... until they finally figured out it was not over heating, he damn temperature sensor was bad and when it said the engine was too hot it then cut the power off to the fuel pumps inside the gas tanks. And they would not turn on until the engine was back to cold.

 

[Selena]

I guess that I don't understand how this is a safety feature.

Maybe the engine is required to be running, implying that there's an operator at the controls in the cab, therefore no inadvertent lowering of the combine head when someone might be underneath?

Such as when maintenance or head removal or attachment is being performed?

It sounds like the electrical solenoid controls allow electronic control of the physical hydraulic valves, probably allowing for more automation. A computer activates the circuit, powers or de-powers the solenoid, hydraulic valve then actuated.

Monty

Just the opposite, some "looky loo" might get in the cab and start playing with levers. If someone is under the header the results could be unpleasant. Keep in mind that the courts require engineers to make their devices fool proof while Democrats keep breeding more even more foolish fools. In the meanwhile people with an IQ above 80 have to work around all the safety devices and usually blame the engineers putting them between a rock and a hard place. If you really want to stop the madness demand Congress and the courts to let Darwin do his job.

 

[toysoldier]

Here's a safety warning I came across last night. I got a bottle of Kroger brand generic acetaminophen from the medicine cabinet. As I opened the lid, I noticed a label on the lid which read:
CONTAINS ACETAMINOPHEN
ALWAYS READ THE LABEL

 

[Mobuck]

Hey, let's not get too tough on ALL engineers. I spent many long hours going through the process of becoming one of these demonic critters.
This scenario would have been much simpler if the operator's manual or even the tech manual had pointed out this little safety detail. According to the comments Son received on the forums, this is quite common but not broadcast other than word of mouth.

 

[Dave P.]

Although I can jump on engineers as well as anybody, I've got to also
point out our judicial system.
Well that and people are stupid!
Dave

 

[Ale-8(1)]

The Monza was a specific model of the Corvair, and like all of them had the spark plugs on top of the cylinders, three on each side. Accessing them usually required removing the air shroud and a couple of other bits, but not the entire engine.

The gas tank was under the floor in front, behind the suspension members.

Oddly enough, on several models the spare tire was mounted in the rear engine compartment on top of the engine. Other models had it in the front "trunk".

Fun car, remember them well . . . Ralph Nader aside. :wink:

 

[bobski]

monza was 60's not 80's if i remember correctly. we had a 61.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

monza was 60's not 80's if i remember correctly. we had a 61.

Yep. 1960-1969 :)

 

[Dan in MI]

monza was 60's not 80's if i remember correctly. we had a 61.

Yep. 1960-1969 :)

Two different cars.

Corvair with Monza trim level

Chevy Monza - it's own late 70's vehicle.

https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=chevy+monza+forum&atb=v276-1&iax=images&ia=images

 

[Pat-inCO]

The ones I have to smile about (because it is SO stupid) are the various medications
that say "DO NOT TAKE (what ever the name is) IF YOU ARE ALLERGIC TO IT!"
Golly-Gee-Willakers, Phread, really? :roll:

Like I said, you have to laugh at it because it is SO stupid. :wink: :roll:

 

[bobski]

hey lest we forget.....rugers famous warning on their bbl rollmarks!

 

[OVERLOADDED]

Was the corvair, even made in the '80's? Overloadded

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Like I said . . . 1960-1969.

 

[sfhogman]

In a way, I was kind of lucky growing up around English motor vehicles. If a gauge or warnings light indicated trouble, the first thing you checked would be the gauge or warning light...

 

[contender]

"That is why we teach to lock out certain electrical circuits, but when we do a “flag” is put on it so everyone knows what is happening."

In Penny's job,, there was a plant, about 1-1/2 years ago, that had a big machine that had to be shut down. Actually (2) of them. Lockouts were in place, all of Penny's company employees had been trained on everything. These guys are not permanent employees of these plants. They are specialists in repairs & upgrades etc.
One machine done.
Second machine had a guy inside it.
First machine needed to be turned on & tested.
Company employee,, who wasn't as trained OR paying attention, (not any of Penny's company employees) went to turn on the first machine,, and turned on the wrong one. Killed the guy from Penny's company inside the second machine.
OSHA fined Penny's company, as well as the plant.
Family is suing the plant.
Penny's company wasn't at fault in any form, and yet,, they get dinged for a "safety violation/death!"

Stupid people are everywhere.

 

[Dave P.]

In a way, I was kind of lucky growing up around English motor vehicles. If a gauge or warnings light indicated trouble, the first thing you checked would be the gauge or warning light...

In the words of the AI that worked on my airplane..." that's nothing that a burnt out lightbulb won't fix"
Dave

 

[gramps]

I was at the high school one late Friday evening years ago training with ladders from the Fire Dept. Our dispatch got a frantic call from a chopper from Ft Campbell several thousand feet up without power looking for a place to land nearby. We were already in position at the HS parking lot, and they made an uneventful auto rotation landing. A light had come on and nothing they did would make it go out. Their home base said to chop the power and land! Which they did. Unable to contact base by radio they used a local phone to make further plans. After a lengthy consultation, They were told to pull the bulb and come home!!!
gramps

 

[Thumbcocker]

Every warning label has a cool backstory.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Every warning label has a cool backstory.

Yeah. Always makes me wonder about those DO NOT TAKE INTERNALLY warnings. :roll:

 

[bobski]

navy jets it was the famous..... master caution light.

 

[bobski]

oh, cant forget the over engineered gas cans of today either!

 

[gramps]

The Chevy Monza was made from 1975-1980: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Monza
gramps

 

[bobski]

ok, monza and corvair, 2 seperate styles. got it.