Pros/cons for 9mm vs 357 revolver

[buckeyeshooter]

This is a no contest for me. I do not own a 9mm anything. Got rid of them all. I have some Smith and Wesson pinned and recessed 27's and 19's and that is the way to go for me.

 

[dhains1963]

A bit late to the party but here's my take on 9mm revolvers:

1) The main advantage of a 9mm revolver over a .38 Special revolver is the ability to use moon clips with a short cartridge that aligns and loads very easily with the chambers. If I the bullets have a round nose profile or anything close to it they almost guide themselves into the chambers.

2) Moon clips are cheap compared to a speed loader and take up less space. You need to avoid the cheap mild steel clips, but well made clips like those sold by TK Customs (which appear to be OEM for the Ruger 9mm revolvers) work very well.

3) Moon clips allow for a faster reload, on the order of about 1/2 second less than most speed loaders.

4) Moon clips also provide for more reliable ejection with zero chance of a cartridge getting stuck under an ejector star, a failure that will prevent a reload and require several second and some fine motor skills to clear.

5) In terms of power, a 9mm will give you .38 +P velocities at comparable bullet weights, albeit at higher pressures with a bit more muzzle blast.

6) The downside of course is you are limited to 5, 6 or 7 rounds in practical concealed carry sized 9mm revolvers.

But let's keep that in perspective. Data on defensive handgun use is controversial as in the vast majority of defensive handgun uses, the event is not likely to be reported. Defensive handgun uses occur on various levels.

A) Most often, an individual conceal carrying a handgun who demonstrates a reasonable degree of situational awareness also won't be displaying the tells a potential assailant is normally expecting to see. They will quite often note the assailant and make eye contact making it clear there is no element of surprise. A professional / competent criminal might not key on exactly what's wrong with the picture, but they will seek a softer target. In that case the would be victim avoids an assault or robbery but never knows for sure that a crime was prevented.

B) In a smaller number and percentage of defensive handgun uses, the would be victim may begin to draw or actually draw the weapon. Again, a competent criminal will recognize they are about to be shot and discontinue the assault. In those case, most people would probably not report the occurrence to law enforcement, especially in urban settings where police departments are often not very supportive of armed citizens and concealed carry permits.

C) The next level is the would be victim actually firing the handgun, without hitting the assailant, who again discontinues the assault and flees. This is more likely to be reported, especially if there were witnesses and almost certainly reported if the victim was injured in the assault.

D) The level where defensive handgun uses begin to be reliably and consistently captured in the data is when the victim actually shoots the assailant. That might be 10% of total handgun uses.

Of those assailants who are shot, the data suggests that about half of them will immediately flee or surrender as they don't want to get shot again. The cartridge used makes virtually no difference, as long as the assailant knows they've been shot, the potential for a psychological stop is in play.

E) In that half of defensive handgun uses where the assailant is actually shot, and doesn't immediately stop, the cartridge finally starts to matter. That's maybe 2 1/2% of all defensive handgun uses.

F) In the those cases where multiple shots are fired, the gun fight is still over in 5 rounds or less in 5 seconds or less, at 5 yards or less, around 90% of the time. That 10% where more than 5 rounds is required is one quarter of one percent of defensive handgun uses - 1 in every 400 defensive handgun uses.

In my case, I had two work related defense handgun uses and in both cases the assailant stopped as soon as the duty pistol was drawn. I also had one attempted mugging where I drove the assailant back with a strike to the chest and driving into him to block the knife and keep him off balance while blading my body and lifting my jacket to draw my concealed handgun. I never got the chance to complete the draw a she immediately fled as soon as he realized he was about to get shot.

It won't be popular, but the fact is that armed citizens are not chasing bad buys into dark and scary places. In fact, they should be using a reasonable level of situational awareness to detect and then retreat from or avoid a high threat environment.

If you want to carry a bat belt with a full size duty 15-17 round duty pistol and two spare magazines thinking you might someday need 46 to 52 rounds of ammunition, knock yourself out. But the odds are you'd only need more than 5 rounds in just 1 out of 400 defensive handgun uses - and the odds are if you ever do need to employ a handgun in self defense, you won't even fire it.

——

9mm revolver wise, I have, in increasing size, a Taurus 905, a Ruger SP101, a Ruger Speed Six, and an RIA imported Alpha Proj AL 9.0.

View attachment 40736

The Taurus 905 is a variant on the Rossi/Taurus 85, which in turn is basically a S&W Model 36, introduced back when S&W owned Rossi. Like a J frame Model 36, it's a compact five shot revolver well suited to concealed carry. Taurus quality is however…spotty…at best. I bought this one at a local gun shop and bright it back less a than an hour later when I discovered the cylinder would not close into the frame with a loaded moon clip, as the cylinder was not properly cut for the rather thick moon clips that came with it.

The shop gave me the option of sending it back to the factory for me, or giving me a refund. I took the refund, but four months later when it came back from the factory I purchased it again. The DA trigger pull is quite good, but it's also primer sensitive as it won't give 100 percent reliability with CCI primers. With Federal and Winchester primers, it's been 100%.

The Ruger SP101 is my most recent acquisition and my experience with the SP101 has been checkered. I have had a 3" SP101 in .357 Mag for over a decade and it's been an excellent revolver. I did install a lighter trigger return spring and lighter hammer spring to reduce the DA trigger pull weight. I also bought a 4.2" SP101 that had an improperly cut forcing cone. Long story short, two trips back to Ruger, out $75 in shipping when they lost the receipt, and then a replacement revolver about 5 months later than I expected as then didn't bother to tell me they would not ship it until they made another run of them.

I probably would not have bought this last one, except I really wanted one in 9mm, and it had been years since I'd actually seen one in a local gun shop (local in this case being about 90 minutes away). The first one I tried felt exceptionally gritty, but the second was fine and after a close inspection I bought it. I should have inspected the accessories as I discovered it did not in fact have the expected envelope with three moon clips in it.

But kudos to Ruger as I sent them an e-mail after on Saturday and they called me back by 10am EST Monday morning, and overnighted moon clips to me.

My Ruger Speed Six in 9mm was acquired used and like my other Speed Six in .357 Mag and my 2 3/4" Security Six in .357 Mag it's a superb revolver, if a bit large for a 9mm revolver.

My Alpha Proj 9.0 is K frame sized and is a decent range gun. However, the chambers needed polishing before it would eject cartridges smoothly.

Of the four, the Taurus 905 and SP101 are best suited to defensive concealed carry purposes. As always, the peg grip frame on the SP101 makes it extremely accommodating for after market grips to adjust the revolver to your hand size and there is a huge number of available grip options out there. The selection and range of adjustment via grip for the Taurus is still good, but more limited than the SP101.

LCR 357mag. If you can't get them with 5 shots (7 yards or less average self-defense distance), you aren't going to get em. No sense reloading either.

 

[Professor]

9mm is far cheaper if you are not handloading. My father loves 9mm and 45acp revolvers. I cant say either is actually better, just depends on what you like.

 

[Coyote56]

Really hard to beat a quality .38/.357 revolver. Unless a .44 is added to the mix.

 

[gnappi]

Evening, been looking for revolver in either 2 3 4 inch barrel. Considering 357/38 or 9mm. Pros of 9mm is much more affordable and readily available. Cons: higher recoil?(haven't shot 9mm Revolver before) And most revolvers require moon clips which is just another piece of equipment to bend or lose when needed. Any further advice on such conundrum?

For me moon clips are not an issue. I look at them the same way as magazines albeit a bit more fragile if they're regularly dropped on the ground.

 

[contender]

This type of discussion has been debated for many years. For the masses,, there is not one, final, absolute answer. Why??? Because humans being humans will each have their their own ideas & preferences.
Then the fact that each gunfight will have variables can affect the outcome. LOTS & LOTS of variables.

I saw a video of a Ohio State Trooper,, using a Beretta .9mm, with it stuck in the window of a big SUV,, darn near emptying the magazine,, and the perp drove off & was never found. And apparently nobody got hit,, not even once from the follow-up story. And I have a NC Highway Patrol officer who was suddenly surprised by a guy, who shot him in the chest at about 3-4 ft away with a .44 mag, (last july see my posting about it here,) yet was not knocked down due to his Level 2 vest, yet he drew & fired 6 rounds from his issue .357 Sig semi, hitting the perp 5 of the 6 times. (it's believed the 6th round went just over the falling body.)
In both cases, neither officer was aiming,, just shooting on instinct.
And then there are the many cases where a single shot fired from a .38 Spl or a .357 mag,, that quickly ended the gunfight. The FBI reports of long ago showed that.

All the variables involved,, there is NOT a single definitive answer to the question.

But for me,, and having talked at length to my friend,, the Trooper mentioned above,, (in fact just this past Saturday at my range while we had our monthly USPSA match,) it's a LOT about the ability to be very instinctive in your response, and the familiarity of the firearm, and developing the motor memory skills of actually shooting accurately under stress.
It's easy to stand upright, in a shooting lane, casually punching holes in a paper target as compared to being under stress, moving, reacting to being shot at, odd angles, one vs two handed shooting and all the other potential issues,, and doing so accurately.

The FINAL arbitrator is the target! It will be THE decision maker.

For me, I'd much rather be more accurate than fast, or trying to rely upon a large number of rounds to hopefully hit an attacker. And I want to be able to do so under stress, one handed, while moving, and at as many possible angles as I can practice.

To add the stress factor,, I use USPSA competition, where we are running against a timer, and I work hard at trying to be as accurate as I can & still get good scores, all while going as fast as I can move, & hit all my targets.
And I mostly use a .9mm revolver, an 8-shot Ruger Super GP-100 (thanks Kevin,) with moon clips. It's because my DA shooting was my weakest type of shooting and I've chosen to work on my skills with it more than any other firearm I may use. I used to shoot a 1911 a lot in USPSA competition, and I got very capable with it. I switched to a DA revolver,, because I often prefer to carry one of those. To develop my motor memory skills.

These are MY personal preferences, and my choices. But again, there is not a single definitive answer to this debate. But I do know that the target will be the final arbitrator.

 

[vlavalle]

This type of discussion has been debated for many years. For the masses,, there is not one, final, absolute answer. Why??? Because humans being humans will each have their their own ideas & preferences.
Then the fact that each gunfight will have variables can affect the outcome. LOTS & LOTS of variables.

I saw a video of a Ohio State Trooper,, using a Beretta .9mm, with it stuck in the window of a big SUV,, darn near emptying the magazine,, and the perp drove off & was never found. And apparently nobody got hit,, not even once from the follow-up story. And I have a NC Highway Patrol officer who was suddenly surprised by a guy, who shot him in the chest at about 3-4 ft away with a .44 mag, (last july see my posting about it here,) yet was not knocked down due to his Level 2 vest, yet he drew & fired 6 rounds from his issue .357 Sig semi, hitting the perp 5 of the 6 times. (it's believed the 6th round went just over the falling body.)
In both cases, neither officer was aiming,, just shooting on instinct.
And then there are the many cases where a single shot fired from a .38 Spl or a .357 mag,, that quickly ended the gunfight. The FBI reports of long ago showed that.

All the variables involved,, there is NOT a single definitive answer to the question.

But for me,, and having talked at length to my friend,, the Trooper mentioned above,, (in fact just this past Saturday at my range while we had our monthly USPSA match,) it's a LOT about the ability to be very instinctive in your response, and the familiarity of the firearm, and developing the motor memory skills of actually shooting accurately under stress.
It's easy to stand upright, in a shooting lane, casually punching holes in a paper target as compared to being under stress, moving, reacting to being shot at, odd angles, one vs two handed shooting and all the other potential issues,, and doing so accurately.

The FINAL arbitrator is the target! It will be THE decision maker.

For me, I'd much rather be more accurate than fast, or trying to rely upon a large number of rounds to hopefully hit an attacker. And I want to be able to do so under stress, one handed, while moving, and at as many possible angles as I can practice.

To add the stress factor,, I use USPSA competition, where we are running against a timer, and I work hard at trying to be as accurate as I can & still get good scores, all while going as fast as I can move, & hit all my targets.
And I mostly use a .9mm revolver, an 8-shot Ruger Super GP-100 (thanks Kevin,) with moon clips. It's because my DA shooting was my weakest type of shooting and I've chosen to work on my skills with it more than any other firearm I may use. I used to shoot a 1911 a lot in USPSA competition, and I got very capable with it. I switched to a DA revolver,, because I often prefer to carry one of those. To develop my motor memory skills.

These are MY personal preferences, and my choices. But again, there is not a single definitive answer to this debate. But I do know that the target will be the final arbitrator.

Great comment! Personally, I think that the 9mm is more of a pea shooter, so I would never use that caliber, but I also own revolvers only. And with you 9mm GP-100, can it also shoot .357 Mag? Mine just shoots .357 mag and /38 spec. rounds. I wonder if I could shoot 9mm with moon clips in my GP-100!

 

[contender]

"I wonder if I could shoot 9mm with moon clips in my GP-100!"

I don't think it'd work. The moons and the rims would likely be too thick for the space behind the cylinder.

 

[vlavalle]

"I wonder if I could shoot 9mm with moon clips in my GP-100!"

I don't think it'd work. The moons and the rims would likely be too thick for the space behind the cylinder.

That makes sense, I think that the cylinder would have to be drilled out to allow for the moon clips to fit in. But why do they not do this always anyway so you can shoot 9mm out of a ,357 DA revolver? Would the shorter cartridge cause back flash issues like what happened with the .357 Max? With SA revolvers you have t have a different cylinder in order to shoot a very different caliber. So, now they make .357 Mag SA revolvers that sometimes come with a 9mm cylinder.

 

[contender]

Actually,, a few custom gunsmiths can mill off the back of a cylinder to accept moon clips. But if I recall correctly,, you have to use moons on all the calibers after that.

 

[vlavalle]

Actually,, a few custom gunsmiths can mill off the back of a cylinder to accept moon clips. But if I recall correctly,, you have to use moons on all the calibers after that.

Well, this does not sound quite right to, although I actually really do not know. It seems to me that moon clips embedded a bit into the cylinder with pistol ammo, such as 9mm,that the clips would need just enough room to fit the clip into the cylinder, still allowing it to spin freely within the gun frame. But with revolver ammo, the rim at the end of the case, that holds the primer, is not just the width of the case as all pistol ammo is, but extends further outwardly. So, if the hammer is able to hit the primer on the pistol ammo (held with a clip), then the hammer still should be able to hit the primer in the revolver ammo.

 

[contender]

To machine a cylinder with a recess to allow the use of moon clips is harder & more costly to do. By shaving off the rear face area of a cylinder, about the thickness of the moons,, it allows the easy use of them with .9mm ammo. They then do not have to headspace on the mouth of the case, as the moon holds them.
But by removing metal from the rear of the cylinder,, you just increased the dimension the hammer needs to travel for ignition on .38/.357 ammo. So, you would need to use moons to recover the "missing" metal to allow for reliable ignition.

In competition, there have been several revolvers done this way because using moon clips is a faster way to reload than speed loaders. A company called "Cylinder & Slide" has done a bunch of them. I have friends who've taken different guns & had them done. One that always puzzled me was a guy took a S&W M10 in .38 spl. and had it done. His reply was; "It's a much faster reload." But he didn't shoot competition.
You are not cutting down the OAL (rear of the ratchet to the front of the boss,) just the rear "face" of the cylinder by about .025.

 

[vlavalle]

9mm is far cheaper if you are not handloading. My father loves 9mm and 45acp revolvers. I cant say either is actually better, just depends on what you like.

'Far' cheaper needs a bit of discussion. While ammo prices came down substantially staring about 6 months ago, prices are still falling for the non esoteric calibers. The lowest I have seen any 9mm (usually the very weak 115gr ammo) is around .25/rd. Typically it is between $.30-.$35 per round for the aggressive sales outlets. .45 ACP can be purchased for $.35-$.45 per round. The .357 Mag can be had for $.50-.$60 for a non high powered round (over 600 ft. lbs.). Of course, you can buy all these calibers for a lot more too.

If you are interested in pricing for ammo, along with their ballistics info, message me for my ballistics file, which has over 3,500 entries, split into handgun and then rifle calibers. Each entry is a link to a website where you can buy that ammo. The file is sorted by caliber, then manufacturer, then bullet size next. So, you can use this file to find the lowest cost ammo, or the most powerful, or the bullet type desired. I release it as a PDF file, so it is accessible on any device, but it is not really usable on a phone since the file is so wide, and so long!.

 

[Thel]

Question on 9mm revolver that DOES NOT require moonclips e.g. Charter Arms one:

If the cylinder is setup not to take moon clips how does one rapidly load the gun as there is no rim for a speedloader to grab hold as they are currently designed??

 

[Laserbait]

"I wonder if I could shoot 9mm with moon clips in my GP-100!"

I don't think it'd work. The moons and the rims would likely be too thick for the space behind the cylinder.

Ruger .45 ACP & 9mm Cylinder Machining | TK Custom Store

TK Custom offers machining for your Ruger revolvers so they can accept moon clips and conversions. Learn more about our cylinder machining online!

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Spendy option though. Can buy a lot of 38 Special ammo for that $350! I do have a plethora of GP100's, so it might be fun to try this on one of them. I bet the accuracy isn't going to be stellar, with 0.5" of additional freebore over a 357 Mag.

 

[contender]

I forgot about TK Customs doing modifications as well.

Yes, it does cost money,, but it's easily done by those who know how.

 

[alchemist11]

9mm is far cheaper if you are not handloading. My father loves 9mm and 45acp revolvers. I cant say either is actually better, just depends on what you like.

I would agree with opinion drives choices. No question though the .357 magnum is the superior round in stopping power, however, the guns, are heavier for increased capacity and recoil control. The recoil in the smaller capacity little guns is down right nasty. I can shoot a ruger security six 2 3/4" barrel, 32 oz well with rapid shots, but anything lighter is absurd!! The caliber requires a heavier revolver to control the recoil for effective follow up shots. Use to be the .357 was the minimum caliber for big bear defense and even that was iffy. Now with hard cast 147 gr bullets, the 9mm is stopping bears. You have to use up a mag to do it, but, it does work! Sooooo all in all the 9mm delivery packages are lighter, more controllable, and close to being as effective!! Again, your choice! I choose both!!!