I am looking to get a new full size DA/SA .45, and have narrowed it down to either a Sig p220, or a CZ97b. It will only be used at the range, and I have fairly large hands and both fit me reasonably well, with the CZ having slightly better ergos , for me anyway. I do like the decocker on the Sig better. My question is, in your experience which is more accurate, better trigger out of the box, etc? I'm sure Rev can shed some light on this one.
Non-Ruger .45 question
- Thread starter 96/44
- Start date
Hi 96/44 !!
You've got two GREAT choices there. They are BOTH fantastically accurate. The only thing that I'd say is that as much as I like CZ's .... the 97B is an absolutely GIGANTIC gun. From your post, it seems like you've handled both guns in person, and they're both OK with you. If so that's great, but if you haven't physically handled the 97B, I would highly recommend doing so. I almost bought one years ago sight unseen, and then I got to handle one, and I was blown away at how large it was, and I have large hands also.
Having said that, and admittedly never having fired personally a 97B, I don't think you'd go wrong either way. My guess is that accuracy would be about exactly comparable. One thing I would say though, is that if you ever have to get rid of one of these guns .... the Sig will go in a week, and it might take months for the CZ to sell. Trade value would also be MUCH higher on the 220, just because of it's stellar reputation in absolutely all areas.
To be honest, this time I think I'd have to vote against the CZ. It's just too big, too unknown (within the 45ACP arena), and it is kind of an oddball in the CZ lineup. Nowhere near like the well-known mainstream 75B platform. I've never even SEEN a 97B that was outside of a gunstore. Lots of guys at my range have 220's. They're pretty much mainstream.
Yeah .... I'd have to go with the Sig. Probably not much price difference either I'd imagine.
If you're interested ... there's a gun store a few miles from me that had TWO used P220's a month or so ago. If you're considering a 220, and used is OK, you may want to call him and see what he'll do. If interested, PM me and I'll hook you up.
Great luck on either gun .... two very good SA/DA 45ACP's !!
PS .... the Sig will undoubtedly have the best trigger out of the box, and probably forever. CZ's are known for needing a few thousand dry-fires (the more the better) before their trigger gets to be where it should be. It really makes your finger tired .... and I'm not kidding at all.
REV
You've got two GREAT choices there. They are BOTH fantastically accurate. The only thing that I'd say is that as much as I like CZ's .... the 97B is an absolutely GIGANTIC gun. From your post, it seems like you've handled both guns in person, and they're both OK with you. If so that's great, but if you haven't physically handled the 97B, I would highly recommend doing so. I almost bought one years ago sight unseen, and then I got to handle one, and I was blown away at how large it was, and I have large hands also.
Having said that, and admittedly never having fired personally a 97B, I don't think you'd go wrong either way. My guess is that accuracy would be about exactly comparable. One thing I would say though, is that if you ever have to get rid of one of these guns .... the Sig will go in a week, and it might take months for the CZ to sell. Trade value would also be MUCH higher on the 220, just because of it's stellar reputation in absolutely all areas.
To be honest, this time I think I'd have to vote against the CZ. It's just too big, too unknown (within the 45ACP arena), and it is kind of an oddball in the CZ lineup. Nowhere near like the well-known mainstream 75B platform. I've never even SEEN a 97B that was outside of a gunstore. Lots of guys at my range have 220's. They're pretty much mainstream.
Yeah .... I'd have to go with the Sig. Probably not much price difference either I'd imagine.
If you're interested ... there's a gun store a few miles from me that had TWO used P220's a month or so ago. If you're considering a 220, and used is OK, you may want to call him and see what he'll do. If interested, PM me and I'll hook you up.
Great luck on either gun .... two very good SA/DA 45ACP's !!
PS .... the Sig will undoubtedly have the best trigger out of the box, and probably forever. CZ's are known for needing a few thousand dry-fires (the more the better) before their trigger gets to be where it should be. It really makes your finger tired .... and I'm not kidding at all.
REV
Yosemite Sam
Hunter
I have a P220 and can heartily recommend it. I have not even held a CZ97.
As much as I hate it when someone suggests another gun when the OP has narrowed it down to two, in this case I can't help myself: Check out the EAA Witness Match in .45 ACP. It's sort of the best of both worlds. It's a CZ style frame (slide rides inside the frame), has a single action trigger, and is not as huge as the CZ97. I have the Witness Match in 9mm and it's a great gun.
Given that the Match is a ~$550 gun and the P220 is closer to $900 I would have a seriously hard time recommending the Sig over the Witness, having owned both. FWIW, I got my P220 used several years ago for far less than the current retail price.
-- Sam
P.S. To the OP: I like your username. I just became the owner of a 77/44. Not quite the same, but close enough.
As much as I hate it when someone suggests another gun when the OP has narrowed it down to two, in this case I can't help myself: Check out the EAA Witness Match in .45 ACP. It's sort of the best of both worlds. It's a CZ style frame (slide rides inside the frame), has a single action trigger, and is not as huge as the CZ97. I have the Witness Match in 9mm and it's a great gun.
Given that the Match is a ~$550 gun and the P220 is closer to $900 I would have a seriously hard time recommending the Sig over the Witness, having owned both. FWIW, I got my P220 used several years ago for far less than the current retail price.
-- Sam
P.S. To the OP: I like your username. I just became the owner of a 77/44. Not quite the same, but close enough.
bczrx
Single-Sixer
Check out the CZ Forums for people's takes on the CZ97.
I've held both and I bought the P220. However, I have mid-sized hands with shortish fingers. The P220 is too big without thin grips on for DA to SA uniformity.
RevHigh is right: the Sig has a better resale value.
Yosemite Sam has a good idea. I've fired a Witness .45 Match and it was SWEET!
I've never fired a CZ97.
Sigs have a great reputation for one of the best 'out of box' triggers around. I have dry-fired both and I don't remember the CZ being significantly worse in DA, but I think I was so focused on the 'reach' of the DA pull I ignored everything else.
Sigs will have more experienced gunsmiths to work on it.
Sigs will have easier availablity of aftermarket parts [springs/recoil rods] and accessories [grip/stocks, holsters, sights].
Sigs have special 'thin/short' triggers and Short Reset Trigger mechanisms, which allow shorter fingers to use them [thin/short trigger] and allow fast follow-up shots.
Sigs have a higher 'snob' factor [Oooh, I have a Sig Sauer P220, what are you shooting?].
Threads I've read and people I've talked to who've fired the CZ97 all claim it is WONDERFUL.
CZ has a reputation for being VERY ACCURATE [more than SIG? I can't say].
CZ is much HEAVIER, which absorbs recoil and may allow faster second shots as you can get the sights on target quicker.
CZs look COOL [to me].
Note my 'snob' factor post and the fact I DO own a SIG P220 [combat]. I would have bought the CZ97, but it was just too darn big, and I have [ :shock: gasp :shock: ] too many .45's at this time for another 'range' gun.
I've held both and I bought the P220. However, I have mid-sized hands with shortish fingers. The P220 is too big without thin grips on for DA to SA uniformity.
RevHigh is right: the Sig has a better resale value.
Yosemite Sam has a good idea. I've fired a Witness .45 Match and it was SWEET!
I've never fired a CZ97.
Sigs have a great reputation for one of the best 'out of box' triggers around. I have dry-fired both and I don't remember the CZ being significantly worse in DA, but I think I was so focused on the 'reach' of the DA pull I ignored everything else.
Sigs will have more experienced gunsmiths to work on it.
Sigs will have easier availablity of aftermarket parts [springs/recoil rods] and accessories [grip/stocks, holsters, sights].
Sigs have special 'thin/short' triggers and Short Reset Trigger mechanisms, which allow shorter fingers to use them [thin/short trigger] and allow fast follow-up shots.
Sigs have a higher 'snob' factor [Oooh, I have a Sig Sauer P220, what are you shooting?].
Threads I've read and people I've talked to who've fired the CZ97 all claim it is WONDERFUL.
CZ has a reputation for being VERY ACCURATE [more than SIG? I can't say].
CZ is much HEAVIER, which absorbs recoil and may allow faster second shots as you can get the sights on target quicker.
CZs look COOL [to me].
Note my 'snob' factor post and the fact I DO own a SIG P220 [combat]. I would have bought the CZ97, but it was just too darn big, and I have [ :shock: gasp :shock: ] too many .45's at this time for another 'range' gun.
I guess I will have to see if I can put my hands on a Witness, I have shot one in 9mm, and was pretty impressed. Is the .45 on the same size frame, or larger? And don't worry Rev, I do have a couple 1911's, just looking to mix it up a bit.
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Cheesewhiz
Hunter
96/44 said:
The newest Witnesses (all of the metal ones) are on a bigger frame than CZ's 9mm's and .40 but a smaller frame than the CZ97. Sig 220's are hardly small, I don't want anyone looking at this thread to get the wrong impression that they are small framed.
96/44 said:
Looks like the same frame from the specs below ....
Witness Full Size
UPC Sku NO. Description Caliber Cap. BBL OAL Wi Hi WT(oz) SRP
741566111167 999101 FULLSIZE, WD FINISH, RG, WAS, DA/SA, IAR 9MM 17+1 4.5” 8.1” 1.4" 5.5" 33 $571
741566106132 999151 FULLSIZE, WD FINISH, RG, WAS, DA/SA, IAR 38SUP 17+1 4.5” 8.1” 1.4" 5.5" 33 $571
741566111174 999102 FULLSIZE, WD FINISH, RG, WAS, DA/SA, IAR 40SW 15+1 4.5” 8.1” 1.4" 5.5" 33 $571
741566107016 999220 FULLSIZE, WD FINISH, RG, WAS, DA/SA, IAR 10MM 15+1 4.5” 8.1” 1.4" 5.5" 33 $571
741566104978 999158 FULLSIZE, WD FINISH, RG, WAS, DA/SA, IAR 45ACP 10+1 4.5” 8.1” 1.4" 5.5" 33 $571
741566107849 999119 COMBO STEEL-BLUE FINISH, RG, WAS, DA/SA, IAR 45/22 10/10+1 4.5” 8.1” 1.4" 5.5" 33 $669
741566600692 999175 COMBO STEEL-BLUE FINISH, RG, WAS, DA/SA, IAR 9/22 17/10+1 4.5” 8.1” 1.4" 5.5" 33 $669
Yosemite Sam
Hunter
Yes. In earlier models I believe there was a small frame and large frame Witness. Circa 2005 they adopted the current, single large-ish frame for all calibers.
Now, grip size: The Witness is not exactly small, being a double stack. The P220 is not small either, but it is a single stack. Honestly, at that it is as fat as some double stack 9s I've held. I have longish fingers and find the P220 with wood grips to be quite comfortable, but many people do find it a bit of a reach/stretch in DA mode.
As with just about anything, if you can try one you'll see it if fits right quick. I will say that the CZ/Witness "form factor" is very ergonomic, at least for me.
BTW, I also have an AR-24 (9mm only) which is essentially the same size as the older, small-frame Witness, and is another CZ clone. That gun is probably the single most comfortable handgun in my accumulation.
-- Sam
Now, grip size: The Witness is not exactly small, being a double stack. The P220 is not small either, but it is a single stack. Honestly, at that it is as fat as some double stack 9s I've held. I have longish fingers and find the P220 with wood grips to be quite comfortable, but many people do find it a bit of a reach/stretch in DA mode.
As with just about anything, if you can try one you'll see it if fits right quick. I will say that the CZ/Witness "form factor" is very ergonomic, at least for me.
BTW, I also have an AR-24 (9mm only) which is essentially the same size as the older, small-frame Witness, and is another CZ clone. That gun is probably the single most comfortable handgun in my accumulation.
-- Sam
Yosemite Sam said:
The small frame Witness (and your AR24), is basically an exact copy (platform wise) as the CZ75(B), right, Sam ?
If it is ... I agree .... ergonomically, the only thing that compares to the CZ75(B) platform, is the 1911 .... IMO, of course ....
REV
Yosemite Sam
Hunter
Pretty much. There are minor differences, like the round trigger guard on the TZ and AR, vs. the combat-style on the CZ. The AR also has a more pronounced hump on the back of the grip, as well as the rear of the slide (nice for gripping).
The AR fits holsters made for the original Witness (== Tanfoglio == "TZ", above).
-- Sam
The AR fits holsters made for the original Witness (== Tanfoglio == "TZ", above).
-- Sam
I've had several 220's; very nice guns. I am also much impressed by my CZ 75D Compact also; the smoothest rail-fit I've ever felt. If the Witness is that good, it's really good.
I used to shoot all-steel 1911's but I shoot "lighter" guns these days as I'm getting older. I still prefer .45 ACP, however.
Good luck in choosing your new gun.
S2
I used to shoot all-steel 1911's but I shoot "lighter" guns these days as I'm getting older. I still prefer .45 ACP, however.
Good luck in choosing your new gun.
S2
Friend just tried to sell me his CZ. Shot it a few range trips and bought the Sig P220, my 5th. (220,225,226,230,2022)
Frankly don't shoot much of anything else anymore... well except my GP100 :lol:
I am so comfortable with the DA/SA everything else feels a little odd now. I have large hands (long fingers), and the Sigs "fit" me better than anything else I've found.
I think you'll be happy with it.
Frankly don't shoot much of anything else anymore... well except my GP100 :lol:
I am so comfortable with the DA/SA everything else feels a little odd now. I have large hands (long fingers), and the Sigs "fit" me better than anything else I've found.
I think you'll be happy with it.
Rabon
Single-Sixer
I have also come to prefer the decock variants to the traditional DA/SA variants. I like the Sigs as well as the H&K but I will probably move back to the H&K as I like the H&K variants which have the capability to be carried cocked and locked and have the option to drop the hammer with the decock with the same control lever (FN also offers these options in some models). The H&K is priced competetive with the Sig, the FN a little less. This option lets you carry the gun in the mode you are the most comfortable with in any given situation.96/44 said:
