MPBR, exact known distance not needed.
"NEW" hunting cartridges
- Thread starter Mobuck
- Start date
One of the most prolific guides/hunters in Africa in the early 1900's, Deaf Banks, used a 6.5x54 Mannlicher. Was never threatened by a wounded animal, hunted everything from antelope to elephant. Said it was all shot placement. But he would also get as close to the game as possible.
I have, I am a practiced "Service Rifle" competitor capable of shooting 600 yard shots with "iron" sights that score 8 points or higher (I'll never make a "National Record"). My hunting limits (self imposed) is 400-500 yards with a scope sighted 280 Ackley Improved rifle. In my experience the average hunter shoots game animals at less than 200 yards. In the East most shots are between 50-100 yards. My 280 AI was built to be a "bean field" rifle. (Soy Beans)
There is more Deer killed under a 100yds than over. And I would bet several times more. But as I have stated before, if Deer didn't have horns there would be a bounty on them. Look at Billions of auto damage yrly. Look at how many lives are lost related to deer on highways. In Ark AGFC can't get enough does killed and even Bucks in some places. Kinda got off track.
If I were building Long Range deer rifle, I would start with a trued Rem 700 action. Kreiger 4 groove bbl, 280AI, Manners stock. Choose bullet you want and hav a reamer ground with .060 Freebore with ammo loaded MOAL. Have .003" neck clearance w Lapua brass. Don't hamstring yourself, hav bbl finished at 26". Top it off with quality glass w dependable repeatability adjustments. That settup would be dependable to kill Deer at a long ways off!!
If I were building Long Range deer rifle, I would start with a trued Rem 700 action. Kreiger 4 groove bbl, 280AI, Manners stock. Choose bullet you want and hav a reamer ground with .060 Freebore with ammo loaded MOAL. Have .003" neck clearance w Lapua brass. Don't hamstring yourself, hav bbl finished at 26". Top it off with quality glass w dependable repeatability adjustments. That settup would be dependable to kill Deer at a long ways off!!
Paul B
Hunter
"Again, IMO, if you can humanely kill an animal at 6-800 yards, you are a heck of a shot, but a lousy hunter."
Not quite 600 to 800 yards but one each cow elk at 530 yards, laser measured. There is one area inArizona where shots at elk are way the hell and gone out yonder and it's try to get as close as you can and still you're taking a very long shot. Once the first shot is heard on opening daythe elk do two things. Head out into the middle of a park where they can see a hunter coming from a long ways off and just keep their distance. In this case my rifle of choice in my .300 Win. mag. running a 200 gr. Speer hot core at very close to 2900 FPS. I won't go too deeply into the three months prior to the hunt where I was shooting at the range two to three times a week at from 100 yards to 500 meters on the club's silhouette range. First few runs were from the bench to determine any holdovers needed and after the one round from the bench, then two to three rounds with offhand at 100 yards and sitting or kneeling at 200 yards , 300, 400 and 500 meters. A round equals one full magazine with one up the spout or four shots.
"I have ZERO faith in the 'drop figures' ammo makers advertise as I can't even remember if/when actual trajectory from my rifles matched factory claims."
I certainly can understand that and why. Take the trouble to run your favorite factory loads over the chronograph sometime. You think your 30-06 is giving you a full 2700 FPS with the 180 gr. bullet? HAH! ust out of curiosity I once compare the Winchester .308 Win. and 30-06, both loads running the 180 gr. power Point bullet. The rifles had the common 22" barrels. The .308 was faster than the 30-06 by 20 FPS. The only time I came close to the advertised 2700 PS was from the 26" barrel of a Ruger Number One.
One time, a long time ago I shot a deer with a factory 7x57 load. That deer took off and it wasn't found until the next day. It wasn't until quite a few years later when I acquired a chronograph and another riffle chambered to the 7x57. I still had some of that ammo from back in 1973 and for sits and grins bought a couple more boxes of that brand to see if thing had changed a bit or if that old box of ammo had lost some power. Bullet was the 175 gr. round nose advertised at 2400 and change FPS. Neither the old box or samples from the boxes of fresh (?) ammo did much better than 2250 FPS if that much. I'd also sectioned a couple of those bullets and the jac
ckets were quite thick so probably not much expansion. In essence, I was shooting that lost deer with a too tough bullets at speeds more in line with the 30-30 Winchester carbine.
I've since learned that factories are limited to loading cartridges to a Maximum Allowable Pressure and in order to not pass that limit underload their ammo accordingly. That's why published factory trajectory table don't jive with reality.
For the record ultra long shots are not my thing. That doesn't mean I can't take one if necessary. The two longest shots I've ever taken on elk are the 530 yard one mentioned and another at 350 yards. One deer,I can remeber only one at 426 paces. Most of my deer have been taken as lesser ranges running from 6 feet to maybe 250 yards and all my big game hunting has been out here in the west.
Paul B.
Not quite 600 to 800 yards but one each cow elk at 530 yards, laser measured. There is one area inArizona where shots at elk are way the hell and gone out yonder and it's try to get as close as you can and still you're taking a very long shot. Once the first shot is heard on opening daythe elk do two things. Head out into the middle of a park where they can see a hunter coming from a long ways off and just keep their distance. In this case my rifle of choice in my .300 Win. mag. running a 200 gr. Speer hot core at very close to 2900 FPS. I won't go too deeply into the three months prior to the hunt where I was shooting at the range two to three times a week at from 100 yards to 500 meters on the club's silhouette range. First few runs were from the bench to determine any holdovers needed and after the one round from the bench, then two to three rounds with offhand at 100 yards and sitting or kneeling at 200 yards , 300, 400 and 500 meters. A round equals one full magazine with one up the spout or four shots.
"I have ZERO faith in the 'drop figures' ammo makers advertise as I can't even remember if/when actual trajectory from my rifles matched factory claims."
I certainly can understand that and why. Take the trouble to run your favorite factory loads over the chronograph sometime. You think your 30-06 is giving you a full 2700 FPS with the 180 gr. bullet? HAH! ust out of curiosity I once compare the Winchester .308 Win. and 30-06, both loads running the 180 gr. power Point bullet. The rifles had the common 22" barrels. The .308 was faster than the 30-06 by 20 FPS. The only time I came close to the advertised 2700 PS was from the 26" barrel of a Ruger Number One.
One time, a long time ago I shot a deer with a factory 7x57 load. That deer took off and it wasn't found until the next day. It wasn't until quite a few years later when I acquired a chronograph and another riffle chambered to the 7x57. I still had some of that ammo from back in 1973 and for sits and grins bought a couple more boxes of that brand to see if thing had changed a bit or if that old box of ammo had lost some power. Bullet was the 175 gr. round nose advertised at 2400 and change FPS. Neither the old box or samples from the boxes of fresh (?) ammo did much better than 2250 FPS if that much. I'd also sectioned a couple of those bullets and the jac
ckets were quite thick so probably not much expansion. In essence, I was shooting that lost deer with a too tough bullets at speeds more in line with the 30-30 Winchester carbine.
I've since learned that factories are limited to loading cartridges to a Maximum Allowable Pressure and in order to not pass that limit underload their ammo accordingly. That's why published factory trajectory table don't jive with reality.
For the record ultra long shots are not my thing. That doesn't mean I can't take one if necessary. The two longest shots I've ever taken on elk are the 530 yard one mentioned and another at 350 yards. One deer,I can remeber only one at 426 paces. Most of my deer have been taken as lesser ranges running from 6 feet to maybe 250 yards and all my big game hunting has been out here in the west.
Paul B.
STURMRUGERFAN
Single-Sixer
I don't generally pay attention to the new cartridges and remember the WSM and WSSM cartridges and a few other that just failed and faded away. Also, don't care about the Creedmoor, the SAUM's, Wetherby's or the Nosler cartridges.
I do have a bit of interest though in the new Federal 7mm Backcountry being as i recently have gotten into the suppressor game. The ballistics on it are impressive in their own way for what it does with a 20" barrel.
I do have a bit of interest though in the new Federal 7mm Backcountry being as i recently have gotten into the suppressor game. The ballistics on it are impressive in their own way for what it does with a 20" barrel.
OP
7mm Backcountry: a 280 AI boosted to 80,000 psi to compensate for a shorter barrel. Y I K E S
That's going to strain even the sturdiest suppressor.
That's going to strain even the sturdiest suppressor.
Even if you know the distance and trajectory of your load and hold over or adjustments in scope for that known range. Wind drift is needed to know and the speed of all that wind out there between you and the known distance. Guessing will only work sometimes.
Absolutely right.
Just came across this stunning, custom, M77
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1106848197
Never heard of that round before....
https://www.lazzeroni.com/Lazzeroni...6-Meteor®-400gr-Lubed-Swift-A-Frame_p_31.html
I will never complain about the cost of my ammo again.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1106848197
Never heard of that round before....
https://www.lazzeroni.com/Lazzeroni...6-Meteor®-400gr-Lubed-Swift-A-Frame_p_31.html
I will never complain about the cost of my ammo again.
A beautiful rifle! Too bad it is on such an odd caliber. Unless you were planning an African safari.............
Xrayist
Single-Sixer
Well, the last deer I shot was at a distance of 18 paces with a 6" M29 S&W. It was in northern Colorado, about 30 miles south of the Wyoming border. Not a "feed plot in the middle of farm country" as you put it. It took me just under 3 hours of stalking to be able to get the shot. I came up over a small rise and there was a nice 4 point buck. I was hunting for meat and not trophy. I don't know who was more surprised, me or the buck. So, no, hunting distance does not have to be over 150yds unless you are on flat, farm land. That is why it is called hunting....
congratulations on being in the 5%
OP
My shots may be 10 yards or 400 yards. Big bucks don't spend much time in the 'wide open' during the fall. Wasting precious time fiddling with equipment often results in a lost opportunity.
80,000 psi is way up there! For cartridges in hunting rifles that don't get shot as much as those used in target guns I guess it's ok because I imagine those pressures are going to wear out barrels a good bit faster
I mentioned earlier that I have started playing with 300 PRC, well the same guy from the video in post #46 just posted a comparison video between 300 PRC and 7mm PRC.
It is interesting stuff, but you really do need to decide if it is worth getting into a new cartridge that may, or may not develop enough of a following to ensure long term availability (looking at you .224 Valkyrie)....
It is interesting stuff, but you really do need to decide if it is worth getting into a new cartridge that may, or may not develop enough of a following to ensure long term availability (looking at you .224 Valkyrie)....
OP
I have 2X Valkyries and 1X 22 Nosler. If/when ammo/brass runs out, I'll just pull the barrel and switch to something else. Until then: :giggle:
I have 1 AR Valkyrie, but have recently thought about trying to get a bolt gun. Not a lot of options out there.....
protoolman
Service-Sixer
As a long time native Montanan my experience with long range hunting is this: Elk hunting- last shot I made was probably 70 yards tops. Herd smelled like a feed lot before I even topped the hill and saw them. Just asked the ranch hands where the herd was hanging out past few days. antelope -approach from behind an obstacle. if they're in an open field where they can see you coming you're screwed. You won't get close to them anyway. Spend a few days hunting you'll get close enough sooner or later. Deer hunting- everyone gets an easy close shot if you spend some time. Most are shot under 100 yards and if you're from out of state you shoot it with a Weatherby or super short magnum or whatever and tell your friends it was a tough 450 yard shot! If you're local you might shoot it with your 06, 270, or whatever. Back 20 years all we did was make fun of out of staters that paid a buck a cartridge just to shoot that Weatherby. I suppose now it's more like 4-5 bucks. My dad's model 54 Winchester in 06 killed elk,deer and antelope for 60 years mostly one shot, probably all under 150 yards with factory 180 gr Core lokt Remington's. If anyone tells you they're in 500 yard shot areas they must be hunting on a 2 day weekend on public land without access to a good hunting area. And I ain't ever shooting something way out across a draw! Do you know what an elk weighs if you have to pack it out? Enough you better be 25 years old! I'd have a heart attack! Now varmints like coyotes and prairie dogs? That's where you go to eastern Montana on the plains with a 22-250 or a creedmore and take stupid long 700 yard shots with 90 percent misses and no one cares. Hitting an old jack rabbit way out there is always fun!
protoolman
Service-Sixer
Isn't that a steel cartridge to handle that pressure I read? So I'm thinking not reloadable too. Seems like an all around bad idea.
Yes, steel alloy, but it is designed to be reloaded.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/edito...loading the new,steel cases three times each.
OP
"I have 1 AR Valkyrie, but have recently thought about trying to get a bolt gun. Not a lot of options out there...."
And probably for good reason. Any high performance .224 cartridge designed to fit/function in the AR platform is most likely a combination of accommodations to improve feeding and/or function.
Two cartridges- 22/250 and 22 Creedmoor would top my list of possibles for a new 224 bolt rifle--the difference being factory rate of twist.
And probably for good reason. Any high performance .224 cartridge designed to fit/function in the AR platform is most likely a combination of accommodations to improve feeding and/or function.
Two cartridges- 22/250 and 22 Creedmoor would top my list of possibles for a new 224 bolt rifle--the difference being factory rate of twist.
Justice B. Swift
Single-Sixer
- Joined
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- N.W. Oregon, The Big Valley & Now S.W. Idaho also.
Something to consider:
There are many reasons to buy firearms that are new or new to me. I have been reloading for more than forty years. from the very beginning I had a great interest in ballistics, energy numbers, sectional density, powder burn rates and all things boring. I acquire guns that are new to me because I enjoy developing accurate loads for them. I may try many bullets, and powders, experimenting and seeing where it leads me. It also affords me the opportunity to learn the history of each, when and by whom it was developed and other little bits of data I'll likely forget. In the short time I have on this earth I will continue to acquire various arms. not because I hope to invent the next big deal, but because I like to see why each has enjoyed it's time and place in history. What did each have to offer. One of my pets is Remington pump Action (Model 760) that began its life as a 30-06. I had an opportunity to hunt moose in British Columbia many years ago. I owned a 300 Winchester Magnum, which had ample power for the bears and moose we expected to encounter, but I wanted something more compact and faster handling for the brushy area we anticipated. I had the old pump 30-06 bored larger to .338-06. I then set about creating the optimum hand load for the task at hand. In the end a 225 grain Nosler Partition seated over a hefty charge of H4831sc proved very accurate and reliable. The brass was hand formed as was the load itself. I never had an opportunity on a bull moose, but I downed my first bear, and my largest bull elk, a nice 6x7, and several coyote. Imagine my enjoyment having created the rifle, the brass, and the cartridge for this. Is this the best rifle in the world. In my world it's pretty close. I have dozens of rifles. Most have a story to tell. This one has a short book. All have a place.
There are many reasons to buy firearms that are new or new to me. I have been reloading for more than forty years. from the very beginning I had a great interest in ballistics, energy numbers, sectional density, powder burn rates and all things boring. I acquire guns that are new to me because I enjoy developing accurate loads for them. I may try many bullets, and powders, experimenting and seeing where it leads me. It also affords me the opportunity to learn the history of each, when and by whom it was developed and other little bits of data I'll likely forget. In the short time I have on this earth I will continue to acquire various arms. not because I hope to invent the next big deal, but because I like to see why each has enjoyed it's time and place in history. What did each have to offer. One of my pets is Remington pump Action (Model 760) that began its life as a 30-06. I had an opportunity to hunt moose in British Columbia many years ago. I owned a 300 Winchester Magnum, which had ample power for the bears and moose we expected to encounter, but I wanted something more compact and faster handling for the brushy area we anticipated. I had the old pump 30-06 bored larger to .338-06. I then set about creating the optimum hand load for the task at hand. In the end a 225 grain Nosler Partition seated over a hefty charge of H4831sc proved very accurate and reliable. The brass was hand formed as was the load itself. I never had an opportunity on a bull moose, but I downed my first bear, and my largest bull elk, a nice 6x7, and several coyote. Imagine my enjoyment having created the rifle, the brass, and the cartridge for this. Is this the best rifle in the world. In my world it's pretty close. I have dozens of rifles. Most have a story to tell. This one has a short book. All have a place.
pisgah
Buckeye
I can well remember when the .280 Remington was the new whizkid on the block -- even though a few of us realized it was naught but a remodeled 7x57...
