"NEW" hunting cartridges

[Mobuck]

Son has been prospecting for 'something new' as a semi-replacement for his tried and proven 280 Rem. He's been impressed with my 6.5 Creedmoor but as typical, his has to be a little better (more expensive?).
Since he travels a fair amount and seems to have every gun emporium in the Midwest logged into his computer, he calls at random times with all sorts of questions about this/that rifles and/or cartridges.
Almost universal reply is, "that's the old XYZ cartridge with a sharper shoulder/less taper and rifled for heavier bullets". Then the follow-up: you're going to need XX" of barrel to make that competitive with 280 or 7mm Rem mag. I offered him my 257 Wby if he wants/needs the ultimate long range deer/coyote rifle.
One of our custom farming customers was impressed by my 6.5 Creedmoor and bought the first one he saw. I was skeptical from the beginning of the 16.5" barrel and ominous looking muzzle brake. As expected, that was an ear shattering bust and fairly disappointing velocity wise.
I keep telling the boys, there ain't no free lunch and more powder may not equal whiz bang expectations.

 

[contender]

As my dad would say; "Tried & true makes believers,, while new & unknown makes cryers!"

If a person truly studies calibers,, and sees how there are thousands of calibers out there that have been developed & tried,, they will be shocked.
Quite a few have such similar performance that the often overlap each other.
Marketing by major companies,, followed by acceptance by the buying public is how stuff survives. But to be accepted,, the makers have to keep stuff in the market,, and buyers have to see positive results to accept them.
Tried & true stuff has survived these critiques.

I'm not saying that occasionally newer stuff comes along that works quite well, AND is similar to other tried & true things. But by it being "new" many folks want it.

 

[thinckley]

30-06 for the win!!!!

I do have a 300 PRC precision rifle and am toying with getting a hunting gun in the same caliber, but at twice the price per round I am hesitant.

 

[krw]

A Buddy of Mine who has past gave His opinion yrs ago. Pik what bullet you want to shoot at what velocity then pik the most efficient case to shoot it out of. That was pretty good advice
And My 2 bits to this is, there aint much difference in most rifles of same class at 300 yds. 308 / 30-06 / 300 Win Mag. And most people harvest game at under that range. Magnums shoot heavier bullets faster but there is no game in Ark to really justify that
260/6.5CM, 7mm-08 are really good options. ManBuns go w 6.5 CM too!!

 

[wwb]

I've hunted Whitetail and Elk for over 60 years with a .30-06, and have never felt the need for anything different (until about 30 years ago when I added a .44 mag carbine for short range thick woods).

 

[turd]

Some folks just need new things once in a while. I'm still using a .25-06 I bought new 44 years ago. When I got the rush for something new, I upgraded the scope, bought a synthetic stock, redid the trigger, new case - stuff like that. What I want to make sure of is if I forget ammo I can go just about anywhere that sells it and find some.

 

[krw]

99% of people would be better shooters if they didnt hunt with more than 2 rifles. I Have a custom 260 that is a solid 5 shot, 1/2moa rifle. Topped with Leupold 4.5x14x50. Cutom elevation turret for Nosler 130gr at 3000fps. Can't think of a better settup for SW Ark

 

[thinckley]

99% of people would be better shooters if they didnt hunt with more than 2 rifles.

While I do not doubt that some people would be better, I absolutely reject that it is the majority, much less 99%.

 

[Gator89]

Son has been prospecting for 'something new' as a semi-replacement for his tried and proven 280 Rem. He's been impressed with my 6.5 Creedmoor but as typical, his has to be a little better (more expensive?).
Since he travels a fair amount and seems to have every gun emporium in the Midwest logged into his computer, he calls at random times with all sorts of questions about this/that rifles and/or cartridges.
Almost universal reply is, "that's the old XYZ cartridge with a sharper shoulder/less taper and rifled for heavier bullets". Then the follow-up: you're going to need XX" of barrel to make that competitive with 280 or 7mm Rem mag. I offered him my 257 Wby if he wants/needs the ultimate long range deer/coyote rifle.
One of our custom farming customers was impressed by my 6.5 Creedmoor and bought the first one he saw. I was skeptical from the beginning of the 16.5" barrel and ominous looking muzzle brake. As expected, that was an ear shattering bust and fairly disappointing velocity wise.
I keep telling the boys, there ain't no free lunch and more powder may not equal whiz bang expectations.

My Bergara B14 SPR has an 18 inch threaded barrel. I took the brake off and installed the thread protector. I became quite smitten with that rifle last season.

 

[Mobuck]

I'll admit I'm a bit 'smitten' by the 6.5 Creedmoor BUT it has it's challenges. It's a better 'wind bucker' than the 25/06 but loses that gain in 'hold on brown' range.
I told Son he'd be well satisfied with the 6.5 CR if he added a ranging/trajectory compensating scope in order to offset the rainbow trajectory.

 

[kmoore]

I'll admit I'm a bit 'smitten' by the 6.5 Creedmoor BUT it has it's challenges. It's a better 'wind bucker' than the 25/06 but loses that gain in 'hold on brown' range.
I told Son he'd be well satisfied with the 6.5 CR if he added a ranging/trajectory compensating scope in order to offset the rainbow trajectory.

He will look long and hard for something that's beats many of the fine points of that .257 WBY. Yeah, it's old so what. Thats a caliber that I don't own but will someday. I fired off 20 rounds of 375HH last week in one range session. That reminded me I am getting older and will prefer smaller calibers if I want to shoot the rifle a lot.

 

[Jeepnik]

Hmm. My dad was an 06 shooter. Killed everything he hunted. I'm an 06 shooter. I do have others like the 30-30, 45-70, etc. My point is the 'newest" cartridge I have rifles for is the .308/7.62x51 and that only because my go to shtf rifle is an M1A1 Scout Squad.

You could probably remove every cartridge "invented" in the last 50 years and no one would have any issues getting things done. Of course the moment you did that someone would invent the next greatest thing.

 

[Mobuck]

I started hunting with a 30/06 and it did the job but kicked the snot out of a 130# kid. A few years later, I bought a 243 and wow what a difference. Then the coyotes learned the limits of the 243 and I moved up (down?) to a 22/250 and the yoties never learned just how far it could hit. Then, I discovered elk hunting and a 7mm RM came home. By then, I[d grown some and had learned to tolerate recoil. I don't do that anymore--old bones and muscles don't like being jolted so much.
One of the important things I've learned along the way: trajectory is a fixed number but wind isn't. As I got older (wiser??) this became a primary consideration. Handheld laser rangefinders became a welcome crutch and holdover tics are wonderful.

 

[needsmostuff]

I'm so old I think of 270 as being a new cartridge ,,,,,compared to 30-06.

 

[rice paddy daddy]

All these cartridges are simply the product of the Marketing Department.
And the gun magazines go along with it because new "stuff" means more advertisements which means more revenue.

An old saying fits very well here: "A fishing lure doesn't need to catch fish, only fishermen."

 

[Mobuck]

'Back in the day' when all rifle actions were l-o-n-g and magnums were something African hunters used, the 06 family was a very logical progression: 25-27-28-30-33-35 plus the occasional 40. 'Fast twist' rifling was unknown and bullet selection was narrow. Current production/manufacturing techniques have changed these parameters. Every Tom, Dick, and Harry has the capability to produce and advertise whatever whim strikes them. Some of these whims are fruitful and some are dismal.

 

[Bigbore5]

22mag and 222 for varmints. 30-30 and 35 Whelen for big game. 444 or 45-70 for big bear (along with the Whelen). 416 Rigby and 475NE for Africa. 8 rifles to cover all my hunting. I could cut it to 5 if I had to. Might add the 7mm mag if I ever head out west again.

Two shtf rifles. AR15 sbr in 300blk suppressed with extra 5.56 20" upper. Lazaroni Longbow 338 Lapua for perimeter defense.

The rest of them really don't do much hunting or are ear marked for defense, but I still have loads tailored for them and enjoy shooting them every chance I get.

 

[rcs9250]

All these cartridges are simply the product of the Marketing Department.
And the gun magazines go along with it because new "stuff" means more advertisements which means more revenue.

An old saying fits very well here: "A fishing lure doesn't need to catch fish, only fishermen."

You are 1000000% spot on correct.
The big push in the gun world since AMERICAN SNIPER hit the theaters is “Long Range”. Very shooters can hit even a 6” plate at 300 yards, and that’s not even considered medium range. Any cartridge made in the last 80 years is entirely capable of typical (100-150 yard) hunting distances.

 

[rcs9250]

I'll admit I'm a bit 'smitten' by the 6.5 Creedmoor BUT it has it's challenges. It's a better 'wind bucker' than the 25/06 but loses that gain in 'hold on brown' range.
I told Son he'd be well satisfied with the 6.5 CR if he added a ranging/trajectory compensating scope in order to offset the rainbow trajectory.

Does he take hunting shots between 600 and 1000 yards? 6.5CM was developed for competition (punching paper) at 1000 yards not killing animals. Sure, it will kill but there might be a handful of hunters in the country who can hit the pump house on a deer or similar game at even 600 yards. Eric Cortina, F Class champion, has youtube video challenges for so called "expert" shooters to hit a 5" steel plate at 500 yards with a cold bore shot. I think one out of ten succeed. I can just imagine the stories outfitters can tell of suburban hunters that make a mess of an animal with multiple shots to finally put an animal out of it misery.

 

[thinckley]

Any cartridge made in the last 80 years is entirely capable of typical (100-150 yard) hunting distances.

You've never hunted out west, have you?

 

[Xrayist]

You've never hunted out west, have you?

Well, if Colorado and New Mexico count as out west, yes I have. Not always successful, but IMO, hunting is getting close to an animal before you take the shot. Might take a long time, and again, not always successful, but I am with rcs9250. Again, IMO, if you can humanely kill an animal at 6-800 yards, you are a heck of a shot, but a lousy hunter.

 

[thinckley]

Well, if Colorado and New Mexico count as out west, yes I have. Not always successful, but IMO, hunting is getting close to an animal before you take the shot. Might take a long time, and again, not always successful, but I am with rcs9250. Again, IMO, if you can humanely kill an animal at 6-800 yards, you are a heck of a shot, but a lousy hunter.

There is a difference between what you are talking about and what rcs is saying. My limit is ~500 yards, but I strive for ~200 yards. But 95% of the time, anyone talking about hunting distance being <150 yards is hunting over a feed plot in the middle of farm country. It is apples and oranges (as you know).

 

[Mobuck]

"Does he take hunting shots between 600 and 1000 yards?"
No and neither do I BUT with a stereotypical 3" high @ 100 yards zero, a 'hold on brown' 6.5 CR range is limited to a little over 300 yards. My 'one shot per day' practice range has a 8" steel plate @ 350 +- yards and requires holding the first 'tik mark' on my Vortex scope at the top to make hits. Calculates out to about 12" of drop.
I have ZERO faith in the 'drop figures' ammo makers advertise as I can't even remember if/when actual trajectory from my rifles matched factory claims.

 

[thinckley]

I have ZERO faith in the 'drop figures' ammo makers advertise as I can't even remember if/when actual trajectory from my rifles matched factory claims.

This is one of the reasons I like https://shooterscalculator.com/. It is surprising how much altitude plays with drop, something that is never disclosed on the factory boxes. I also use MPBR for my hunting rifles (12" target size for Elk):

 

[krw]

This is one of the reasons I like https://shooterscalculator.com/. It is surprising how much altitude plays with drop, something that is never disclosed on the factory boxes. I also use MPBR for my hunting rifles (12" target size for Elk):

View attachment 78337

Figure in Density Altitude. That combines Barometric Pressure, Altitude, and Humidity. Amazing how it affects flight of a bullet. It is what Helicopters use to determine lift from day to day

 

[rcs9250]

Again, IMO, if you can humanely kill an animal at 6-800 yards, you are a heck of a shot, but a lousy hunter.

Zactly.

 

[rcs9250]

You've never hunted out west, have you?

I have not and most likely never will. I shot NRA service rifle, M1A, for several years and built a Winchester M70 in .308WIN with aperture sights for competing in thousand yard prone match, I know the difficulty in long range shots. Today I think the average rifle shooter thinks anything beyond 300 yards is “long range” I hear them all the time at my gun club. Nothing against you, but having to take a chance at an animal at 600 or so yards is a roll of the dice for nearly everyone. The “hunt” part ends when you have the animal in the crosshair, all the important skill precedes that. My opinion and ethic.

 

[thinckley]

I have not and most likely never will. I shot NRA service rifle, M1A, for several years and built a Winchester M70 in .308WIN with aperture sights for competing in thousand yard prone match, I know the difficulty in long range shots. Today I think the average rifle shooter thinks anything beyond 300 yards is "long range" I hear them all the time at my gun club. Nothing against you, but having to take a chance at an animal at 600 or so yards is a roll of the dice for nearly everyone. The "hunt" part ends when you have the animal in the crosshair, all the important skill precedes that. My opinion and ethic.

Not knocking your shooting skills, but there is a world of difference shooting known distances at a (potentially) moving target. And, as I said in the post you quoted, my max comfort zone is ~500 yards.

Out here? You try to get as close as you can, but sometimes that means 300 yards. No skill in the world is going to teleport you across that open draw, and by the time you have skirted through the trees for 2 miles, those elk are gone.

 

[rcs9250]

Not knocking your shooting skills, but there is a world of difference shooting known distances at a (potentially) moving target. And, as I said in the post you quoted, my max comfort zone is ~500 yards.

Out here? You try to get as close as you can, but sometimes that means 300 yards. No skill in the world is going to teleport you across that open draw, and by the time you have skirted through the trees for 2 miles, those elk are gone.

Fair enough.
Edit: But any hunter worth his salt in this day and age shooting past 200 or so and isn’t using a laser range finder (aka known distance) is a piss poor unethical hunter. Many tests have been done with people estimating (guessing) range and are very poor.

 

[Mobuck]

Many years ago (actually in the previous century), during winter I fed my family and paid to keep the lights on by killing coyotes. At that time, the majority of farm land was broken up into 40 acre fields (1/4 mile squares) which gave good indicators of distance when shooting. Many/most of those fences are long gone today and fields are much larger. Many of our fields are 1/2 mile or more across and featureless giving no reference points to estimate range. Animals don't just hang around waiting for a visual ID, switching to a range finder, switching back to the rifle, and making adjustments to allow for distance. They also don't move in a precise line or distance so the range may change significantly while all this equipment handling is going on.
I see advertisements touting 'ranges up to XXX yards' from cartridges that barely make 2500 FPS (even the average 6.5 CR is in the 2800 fps or less category). Sure, the bullet will fly that far but which tree on the skyline are you going to aim at to hit the 'target' at the bottom of the hill?
Guess I'm trying to convince myself that an automatic trajectory compensating scope is worth the big bucks.