Long Barrel

[David Bradshaw]

I'd have to be reincarnated twice to have any chance of wearing a long barrel sixgun as long as I've worn short barrels. I lived long days wearing a Model 29 6-1/2-inch----a king deerslayer. Wore an old brass grip frame Super Blackhawk, too, but the 7-1/2" barrel proved too long, that extra inch noticeably longer than the 6-1/2". Eventually I went shorter, putting high mileage on an M-29 4-inch. And, when it became available, a Redhawk 5-1/2".

I had tracked down deer and taken them from the leather; when silhouette came on, I was ready. I raced 3,300 miles across country to shoot my brass grip 7-1/2" Super in the first IHMSA Championship (1977). I lead in Standing until the last afternoon (the Standing Championship was won with a Hawkeye .256 single shot).

I had a personal battle going on between my blue M-29-2 .44 mag 8-3/8" and the old brass Super 7-1/2". Both VERY accurate revolvers. Eventually the M-29 8-3/8" eased ahead. In 1979, when Bill Ruger told me that he was about to release the Super with a 10" barrel, I argued for him to make it 10-1/2-inches. He thought the difference meaningless. I want the last little bit under IHMSA Production gun rules.

***
200 Yards
Temperature, this morning, one below zero. Sun came out bright. Temp rose to 9-degrees. By the time I unlimbered my .357 Maximum, temp was 2-degrees. Wind had blown the snow off the shot-up aluminum spaghetti pot at 200 yards. A stainless steel milk can sat a few feet away on another rock.

Take a couple of sighters. Three shots from the 10-1/2" Ruger Maximum print into 4-inches: Federal .357 magnum 180 JHP loaded in the .357 Maximum.

Next, my nickel M-29 8-3/8"; two shots of Federal 240 JHP stitch into 2-inches. About time I got lucky. The barely perceptible wind had drifted all bullets right about 8-inches.

Now for the pots. Snugging the barrel of the Maximum on rolled sweatpants----holding the black sight a hair left----BOOM...TINK!----the .357 180 JHP center-hits the spaghetti pot, shoving it into the snow, but not off the rock.

Next, rest the barrel of the nickel M-29 on the sweatpants----holding the red ramp a hair left----BOOM...TONK!----the 240 JHP blows through the heavy stainless milk can at 8 o'clock.

Long barrels and long range go together. Shorter barrels may be just as accurate, but it requires more from the human to make it happen. My eyes are not what they used to be. I squint, switch eyes, take deep breaths, look away, anything to see the sights.

Long barrels have a beauty all their own. They mean business. And that business is marksmanship.
David Bradshaw

 

[George Tucker]

You have a point, i also have a Mod 29-2 8/38" Nickel. It is one of my most accurate Revolvers.

 

[Old Judge Creek]

I too have a M29-2 with the 8 3/8" barrel that is just about the most accurate handgun in my battery...

Wonder if there's "something" to that? LOL,

 

[Kanook]

I like the long barrelled revolvers as well. One day hope to get a 357 mag 10" in the safe. Will have to have the 10" 45 colt made. Just can't understand why Ruger doesn't do runs of them once in awhile

I know, no demand besides me.

 

[2 dogs]

Long barreled sixguns require some careful thought to properly holster. The best option I have found is Mike Barranti's Longhorn Companion. Here is a link, it is shown with short barreled sixguns, but works great for the longer barreled ones as well. I particularly like the easy on easy off option.

http://barrantileather.com/New_Products.html

 

[Ken ONeill]

I'm with you, David. My 10 1/2" Supers were superb in IHMSA matches. Sadly, I sent them all down the road several years ago. This SRH, FA 353, and 757 fill my longer range revolver needs these days. Obviously, the 757 is a scope-only proposition:

 

[David Bradshaw]

Ken.... I'm afraid you'd run me out of town with your scoped Freedom Arms five-shooters... I might have a dog for the race.
* What are your FA scope mounts, and are they countersunk for recoil?
* Care to share your loads?

How does your Super Redhawk shoot? Is that a reworked stock barrel with SRH insert sight? Fine sight arrangement. There is one thing which should improve accuracy: remove hammer and trigger, rub on sidewalk to scratch off jeweling!
Best,
David Bradshaw

 

[Ken ONeill]

David,
The scope mounts are custom propositions made by Gordon Logan of Taylorsville, N.C. They do of course have a boss that sits down firmly and tightly inside the FA rear sight recess. The screw holes are well countersunk into the base to give added strength to the (shorter) screws.
You're certainly well familiar with most of the chosen loads:
44: 24/296, CCI 350's, and 240 Sierra JHC
357: 16.5/296, CCI 550's, and 158 Horn. XTP or:
15/296, CCI 550's, and 180 XTP
475L: 25/H-110, CCI 350's with either a 400 Horn XTP or a 420 hardcast WFN.

The SRH barrel is original, fluted because I took a notion. The revolver is about a 2 MOA gun, although I'm not always a 2 MOA shooter ... and getting worse with age. Thanks for the tip, but the jeweling adds 200 fps and cuts group size in half :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[2 dogs]

Oh yeah! And the chicks dig fluting!!

 

[Ken ONeill]

Yep, and I'm not a chick magnet like you, 2 dogs, so I need all the help I can get.

 

[David Bradshaw]

Ken.... thanks for the load dope. And, yes the .357 and .44 loads may not have been classic before steel shooting, but they were when we got done.

Anytime you can make a Super Redhawk run into the 2's at 100 yards, you have a keeper. Has that gun, by any chance, a real smooth forcing cone?

Nice touch, flutes on the FA M-353 .357 mag. Accentuates stop notch location on 5-shot cylinder. Also, don't see a trigger stop, another personal preference item. I like a trigger stop on a Casull single action, don't want on a Ruger (which works out better for the transfer bar).

Don't suppose I have to ask how the Freedom Arms shoot,
David Bradshaw

 

[Lee Martin]

I really prefer 10" barrels for distance. This 10.5" 375 Seville is a favorite for long-range work.

With its undercut sight, 2 lb trigger, and mild recoil 200 meter hits are easy.

 

[tom black]

I've never been that crazy about long barreled sixguns but this Model 29-2 followed me home a few days ago. So far I really do like it. I haven't had a chance to shoot it out past 100 yards but at that range it shoots well enough to ruin an old whitetail's day.

Tom Black
Cantucky

 

[David Bradshaw]

Lee.... Thinking 1983 Sig Himmelmann brought his first Seville .375 Super Mag to the IHMSA Internationals, Black Canyon, Arizona. Gun may have come out of Bisbee. Elgin Gates and I had an argument who would shoot it first. As in, "YOU shoot first."

The championship was shut down briefly as we shot turkeys at 150 meters. Believe we shot Hornady 220 grain lever gun jacketed, which today would be called RNFP. There was no doubting the CLANK on steel.

Boyd Carpenter of Virginia got it on video.

Himmelmann also brought along some short barreled guns with bird head grips, which IHMSA members may have bought.

Tom Black.... you won't regret your M-29-2. S&W was still married to a gun full of drop-forged parts, with the case hardened hammer and trigger truly case hardened. Which means, do not stone them. As long barreled revolvers go, the M-29 and M-27 are about the easiest to wear all day.
David Bradshaw

 

[Lee Martin]

Neat history David. That 220 grain Hornady was "the" bullet for the 375 SuperMag. I've shot 245 and 260 cast gas checked slugs in mine too. All are strong performers.

 

[Ken ONeill]

You guys may remember that there was a brief run of Hornady .375 220 FN's with a repositioned cannelure for shooting in the .375 SM.
David, the .353 does have a trigger stop. Its not vey apparent in the photo, but you can see a small black spot in the face of the trigger, about 1/3 of the way down. The forcing cone on the SRH is indeed pretty smooth.
Lee, I really like your Seville .375, and turn a bit green with envy every time you post a photo.
You know, as we think about Sevilles, I haven't seen a post by John Himmelman in a long, long time (?)

 

[Lee Martin]

I haven't heard from John in a while Ken. I'll drop him a line tonight though. I'm currently working on a book that covers Sevilles, El Dorados, and Abilenes. I have some questions for John so the timing is perfect.

 

[David Bradshaw]

Ken.... thanks for reminding me of Hornady .375 220 cannelure placement for six-shooters. Pawed over some of those handloads a couple months ago.

The .375 Super Mag is a power step above the .357 Maximum/Super Mag. Somewhere in the desperate struggle to keep Dan Wesson Arms afloat, guns were assembled with incorrect barrels. In the case of the .375, I encountered .377-inch groove diameters, which bullet casters put into play with great accuracy, while that measurement stranded the jacketed crowd.

Since I know of several DW barrel problems, there must have been more. I told them at the factory on a couple of occasions that it costs more to build a gun twice than to get it right the first time. To this day, that concept seems to be written in a language incomprehensible to management types. Serious damage was done to Smith & Wesson by Bangor Punta with the insertion of a guy from Sony.

One very good guy who came into Dan Wesson with a grasp of manufacturing was Duane Small, whom, I recall, had been VP at the Holley carburetor division of Colt Industries (tell me if I'm wrong, folks). Duane could also shoot. When I was invited to fire the first prototype DW .44 mag in Massachusetts, I handed Dune Small one of the first Ruger M77 .308 International Mannlicher carbines. We were shooting at 100 yards. Duane impressed me when he emptied the carbine, stroking the bolt from the shoulder, doing the job. Duane's "car gun" in his motor home was a Colt First World War commemorative with gorgeous bluing.

The big frame DW crowded the 4-lb. weight limit for production guns. A grip of dense walnut sent the 8" Vent Heavy (full underlug) overweight. I promoted that version hard, as it was steadier in offhand than the 10" without underlug.

The DW M40 .357 Super Mag and .375 Super Mag were cut at 8-inches, without full underlug, to meet IHMSA weight. Weight is also the reason the FA 353 .357 mag in silhouette trim has a 9" barrel.

There remains untold story on the beautiful Ruger .357 Maximum.
David Bradshaw

 

[Lee Martin]

David...speaking of 357 Maximums, whatever happened to the Hawkeye you had converted to the round? I remember seeing photos of it years ago.

 

[David Bradshaw]

I know I'll get the spelling wrong, but Sig's wife, Gissela, was at the Black Canyon intro of the Seville .375 Super Mag. Pulled up a chair to watch us hammer away at the iron. I think son John was there. Recall they came up from Bisbee in a cream Mercedes.
David Bradshaw

 

[Lee Martin]

David....if that was 1983 Sig's wife was battling cancer at the time. If I recall correctly she passed away in December of '84.

 

[David Bradshaw]

Lee.... the Hawkeye Maximum was Bill, Jr's baby. 10-1/2-inch barrel, 1:16" twist. Bill, Jr., wanted badly to put in into production. The one I shot is pictured in the .357 Maximum article in Guns & Ammo, March 1983. Bill took it back after our first session and reworked it to ease feeding of the straight wall Maximum. After which it worked perfectly. We fed it all the hot experimental rounds. As with the revolver, didn't do BOO----minus throat burn.

As to where it or any others are, someone out there must know.

The Hawkeye is a sweet design.
David Bradshaw

Lee, you are rattling the memory cage. Try me a bit later, I'm headed down the mountain.

 

[flatgate]

I can kinda play this game...
These first two .357's are "safe queens"; one's from the late 50's/early 60's and the other is a special issue New Model. The other's are shooters.

flatgate

 

[Ken ONeill]

Let's don't forget the .22's:

 

[Lee Martin]

David Bradshaw asked me to post these on his behalf.

This is the first production Ruger 357 Maximum shipped from the factory:

Here's what David did to a spaghetti pot at 200 yards:

Hopefully he'll chime in with more details.

 

[M'BOGO]

David Bradshaw asked me to post these on his behalf.

This is the first production Ruger 357 Maximum shipped from the factory:

Here's what David did to a spaghetti pot at 200 yards:

Hopefully he'll chime in with more details.

That is a fine looking revolver, and the spaghetti pot speaks with authority. Gotta ask, what's with the extra cylinder?

 

[David Bradshaw]

M'Bogo.... Maximum 600-00018 has two barrels and two cylinders. The barrel on the revolver has a short 11-degree forcing cone. Cylinder gap is .001-inch.

The second cylinder goes with a barrel with 5-degree x .395"-deep forcing cone, although cylinders interchange.

In discussing forcing cones, 11-degree assumes the angle of the two "sides" of the cone. In industry jargon "included angle" means both sides of the taper.

A 5-degree cone is shallower than the industry-standard 11-degree cone. To reach a given diameter----to accommodate that abstract called "chamber-to-bore alignment," a.k.a. "chamber misalignment," or "chamber runout"----a 5-degree cone must be deeper.

An unsupported bullet wanders. Dynamic support only comes as the bullet is spun. Before it enters the rifling, the longer the contact with chamber exit-hole (chamber throat), and the shorter the leap to the rifling, the straighter the bullet is guided into the rifling.

Violence is done a bullet by loose exit holes, sloppy, rough or oversize forcing cone, abrupt rifling leade, or any combination thereof. The barrel cannot impart gyroscopic stability to a bullet that arrives at the rifling twisted or tipped.

That is why I consider the forcing cone a necessary evil. It's like the concentration of vitamin "A" in bear liver. A little dab will do----we need vitamin "A" to live----but too much kills.

There was the potential for a bit of overlap between sorting out dimensions and releasing the Blackhawk .357 Maximum. I have long wondered how many Maximums may be out there with a variation in forcing cones.
David Bradshaw

 

[flatgate]

Ooooh, I bet Coogs is in shock..........

More Long Barreled Shooters: Rimfires

.32 H & R cal.

7-1/2" Flatgate Single-Six

RSS9

Stainless KS-9, no mag cyl.

flatgate

 

[David Bradshaw]

Flatgate.... doubt ole' silhouette buddy, retired Border Patrolman Major Golden (how's that for a name?) has made the leap from reading on stone tablets to computer screens. Reckon he sees your pictures, you'll hear the knock of a Blackhawk revolver butt on your door:

"Hoss, you gonna let me DROOL on them pistols?"

You will not open your long barrel collection without Major Golden dripping a few slugs in the chambers, ear back the hammer, squeeze off on some steel down yonder.

Back before there was a Revolver category in silhouette, I campaigned for it the only way I knew how, by rolling revolvers hard against the single shots. Among serious revolver shooters, Major Golden was my major ally. A silver boot-toe, hind leg sixgunner.

Your beautiful Rugers are a memory jolt, and I appreciate the virtual museum provided here. And, yes, in rolling up his last International Revolver Aggregate Championship, Major Golden unlimbered his 9-1/2-inch Single-Six for the rimfire event.
David Bradshaw

 

[Ale-8(1)]

A good friend beat me to an 8-3/8" Model 25 in .45 LC many years ago. He was nice enough to let me shoot it on occasion. What a wonderful device. We shot at -- and hit -- things waaaaaay out there.

Upon his untimely passing, I made serious attempts to buy it from his widow, to no avail.