Loading oversize .44 cast bullets

[tacotime]

Thanks to all who helped analyze the Redhawk barrel leading problem.

Using Lee dies. I've never really looked into the technical details of the seating/crimping die until I found I needed some oversized bullets.

As I read it, the standard seating and crimping die also does some resizing. Loading a .431 cast, I didn't notice or look for any any case resizing, but I did notice a swaging of the bullet band itself that is outside the case. The band was scuffed and shined bright. I need to pull a bullet and see if it is also swaged fully. It may be that the seating plug is just swaging the forward band of the SWC, not sure.

Looks like I need .432 or .433 bullets to deal with oversized throats (.4325) on the Redhawk.

So will the round be left full sized if I do not crimp in the seating die and crimp separately with the factory crimp die? Lee says the FCD does not resize.

Or do I need some kind of oversized expander for the expanding die or oversized seating plug for the seating/crimping die?

Thanks.

 

[98Redline]

The swaging happens because you are using the FCD. There are a number of threads out there talking about this specific issue. The Lee FCD does sort of a "final sizing" of the entire case length and ensures that if you are shooting an auto pistol that the rounds will properly chamber. When loading for a revolver you don't need the FCD step. You only need 3 steps (4 if you count priming).

1) Resize/decap
2) Expand/Powder: Set your expander to just bell the case mouth enough to get the bullet started.
3) Seat/Crimp: It is perfectly fine if you can see some expansion of the case as you seat and crimp the bullet...especially if you are seating .4325 bullets. On my .480 I can actually see the driving bands and lube grooves through the case after the bullet is seated.

That is all you should need.

If you were to run your completed rounds through the FCD at this point, the lead bullet would be swaged down inside the case as the carbide ring resizes the outside of the case. End result, undersize bullets....again.

 

[DeletedMember275]

As stated above, the Lee FCD PISTOL dies most certainly do swage the bullet down - regardless of what Lee claims. I have yet to discover a need for the Lee FCD PISTOL dies.

 

[mikld]

As stated above, the Lee FCD PISTOL dies most certainly do swage the bullet down - regardless of what Lee claims. I have yet to discover a need for the Lee FCD PISTOL dies.

+1. Properly adjusted dies and correct loading methods and the LFCD is not necessary. Also when I load large cast bullets for my .44 Magnums, I prefer to separate seating and crimping into two operations (I load .432"-.433" for my Puma). More repeatable (less variation), and fewer problems this way.

I tried a lee FCD (handgun) just out of curiosity. Used it once for reloads for my Dan Wesson M44 and got a lot of barrel leading (.431" throats and .430" groove diameter). The FCD now resides in a landfill somewhere in Southern Oregon...

 

[DGW1949]

In addition to 98Redline's exellent post;

If you experience chambering difficulties while trying to load your gun with ammo which contains oversized bullets, the proper fix would be to inside-ream the empty cases (before loading) so that the OD of the compelted cartridge will remain within industry standards after the oversized bullet is pressed into place.
In other words, sometimes ya have to do something to make up for the extra bullet diameter or the completed cartrige will be too fat to chamber.

Whether or not the above will be nessesary in your case remains to be seen but regardless, it's real plain that no matter what, you are going to need a conventional roll-crimp die. Lee's FCD is not going to allow you to address your oversized throat problem.

Hope this made sense.

DGW

 

[98Redline]

Actually if you have the Deluxe pistol set from lee (4 dies), just omit the final FCD die step.

In my experience the Lee Dies, when properly set up produce very consistent and nice looking roll crimps. I have a couple of sets of Redding dies that perform the seat and crimp in 2 steps and can't tell the difference in looks or performance between

To properly set up the Lee Seat/Crimp die I do the following:
If it is a round I have not loaded before I will normally make up an inert round (no primer or powder) to use as a quick setup guide for future use.

After resizing and expanding, switch to the seat/crimp die.
1) Screw the seater down as far as it will go and leave the entire die backed out of the press enough that there is no way the top of the case will get anywhere near the crimping section.

2) Carefully seat your chosen bullet to the proper depth. Use partial strokes on the ram to keep easing the bullet in little by little until you achieve the correct seating depth.

3) Now back out the seater fully. You want to make sure that when you stroke the ram up, you don't seat the bullet any deeper in the case. Back the die out of the press enough that you can extend the ram and bullet into the fully up position.

4) With the ram up, begin screwing the die into the press until you begin to feel the resistance of the crimping section on the case mouth. Lower the ram a bit and turn the die in about 1/4 more (set the lock nut to lock the die in place).

5) Extend the ram fully upwards and crimp the round. Your bullet should be seated to the correct depth and properly crimped. If needed, you can add a little more or take a bit of crimp off, depending on your case thickness, but 1/4 turn seems to be about perfect.

6) With the ram fully up, dial down the seater until it contacts the nose of the bullet.

Thats it in a nutshell.

 

[gray wolf]

I doubt you will have problems seating rounds with .432 bullets.
Put the LFCD away and then forget about it. Very important is the diameter of your expander plug. The one that comes with the lee set is basically for jacketed bullets
and should mic. out around .427 .4265/.427 is about standard. Lyman M-die will not help as they are about the same size and $$$ for a custom one.
A .432 bullet will do well with an expander of about .429 .4295
If you find your bullets getting smaller after seating and pulling one.
The rcbs cowboy expanding die has a spud of about .430 if it's a little big a swipe or two with some 600 grit paper will make it .4295 in no time.
Get a separate roll crimp die and do it in two steps, or see if you can follow me here. This is not for the FCD, standard seating die that crimps also. Get a washer that slips over the thread on the die, or get the closest fitting one and open it up so the die threads will go through it, they are about 1/8 thick.
Back out the seating stem so it will not seat a bullet.
screw the did into the press and raise the ram with a case in place,
Adjust the die so you get the desired crimp on the case mouth, and lock the die in place. now whenever the die is in the press and you raise the ram all the way up it will give you the desired crimp.
It may need some fine tuning but do it latter.
Now put the same die in the press using the washer as a spacer, this will allow you to seat and not hit the crimp ring.
put a sample bullet in and adjust your seating dept with the seat adjustment screw.
Seat all your bullets, then remove the washer (spacer ) raise the seat stem a few turns and now the die will just crimp. It takes longer to say it than do it.
Or just get a separate crimp die.

 

[Olsherm]

I disagree about the LFC die. I have used it for years and just used it recently on some oversized 45 bullets that I cast for oversized throats in a Colt.It does not size them down enough to "undersize" the bullets. Lee is correct.I have used it extensively and it only touches the case now and then just a little.Mostly I think it works only if a bulet is seated a little "side-ways" in the case.JMHO

 

[tacotime]

Thanks for the guidance. Still a little unsure...

I seated the .432 into the case nicely without crimping by backing the die out and seater plug in.

Then to crimp... seater out, die in to touch the case and crimp. Worked, but, here's the issue. Before the case mouth gets to the crimp ring, the die tapers down and still swages off the exposed part of my .432 bullet down to .4305. Looks like the die is just built that way. My throats are .4325.

Since the bullet was already in the case this time before crimping, I suppose the part of the bullet inside the case was spared the swaging/sizing, whereas when seating/crimping together before, I think the entire bullet was getting the swaging. Was this non-swaging part the effect I was looking for by seating and crimping separately?

So I tried the FCD. It was no different - it also swaged down the exposed part of the bullet.

So... I read I can hone out the ledge in the die that swages the bullet down. That is my next move... not sure why Lee doesn't offer choices of dies for common oversizes for common calibers.

 

[gray wolf]

Thanks for the guidance. Still a little unsure...NO problem, look for a bill in the mail HA, HA,

I seated the .432 into the case nicely without crimping by backing the die out and seater plug in.

Then to crimp... seater out, die in to touch the case and crimp. Correct, If you read my other post about using the washer you wont have to re-adjust two times, but you will need a lock ring on the die to do it. Your still experimenting so for now It's OK. The lee rings with the rubber insert don't always register the same.Worked, but, here's the issue. Before the case mouth gets to the crimp ring, the die tapers down and still swages off the exposed part of my .432 bullet down to .4305. Looks like the die is just built that way. My throats are .4325.See if you can play with the die to get the case to not go so far up in the die, this may not be possible but it's worth a try. Some guns may not be bothered by that but it's best if the variables were kept to a minimum.

Since the bullet was already in the case this time before crimping, I suppose the part of the bullet inside the case was spared the swaging/sizing,Suppose ? the only way to know for sure is to pull the bullet with a 20$ inertia bullets puller and measure it, or test the fit back in the cylinder throat. whereas when seating/crimping together before, I think the entire bullet was getting the swaging. Was this non-swaging part the effect I was looking for by seating and crimping separately? Seating and crimping together would not make a difference in what's in the case already
Unless you are very, very careful, and even then it may happen.
What happens? ? The seating and crimping do not occur at the same time and you either wind up seating a little deeper than you want, OR the bullet is still going in the case as the crimp is being applied. This can shave lead around the crimp area. Crimp closes >( ) bullet is still moving down, bullet is caught by the crimp and is forced into the case against the pressure of the crimp. Why distort the front of the bullet ?

So I tried the FCD. It was no different - it also swaged down the exposed part of the bullet.

So... I read I can hone out the ledge in the die that swages the bullet down. That is my next move... not sure why Lee doesn't offer choices of dies for common oversizes for common calibers.

If you hone it out just go slow and don't over do it