Law enforcement, and current climate

[contender]

The post about the truck driver getting awarded a judgement for a wrongful arrest is interesting, but I didn't want to hijack that thread.

PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS THREAD POLITICAL, IT IS NOT!!

The current political & public climate of attitudes towards law enforcement is sad. Just last night, on our local news, there was a story about how NC is currently suffering from the lack of enough Highway Patrol officers. Across the state,, we are short by over 200 officers. So, they are trying a program to recruit officers who have already been certified as LEO,,, and reduce the necessary training time to try & fill these empty positions.
And it's not just our Highway Patrol,, it's most law enforcement agencies across our State & much of the nation.

But what really got me about the whole story,, and the MAIN focus of this post, was the pay scale for the Highway Patrol. I was appalled at the starting pay. $46,000.00 a year. This for a person who has to undergo 26 weeks of training, and deal with death on the highway. A person who has to wear a bullet proof vest daily to HOPEFULLY survive being attacked by criminals. A person who puts their life on the line daily and tries to help the public as much as they can.

And why is this truly appalling?

Starting salary for a school teacher is $54,000.00 a year. AND we get constant demands by the teachers in our states wanting more benefits, more pay, & they cry poor mouth all the time. They claim that NC is "among the lowest paid teachers in the country. They claim they need more benefits. Yet,, they are required to have school open 180 days a year,, (and yes, I know they work more days than that,) but want MORE benefits.

I don't see school teachers wearing a bullet proof vest daily. I don't see school teachers out all hours of the day & night in all kinds of weather doing their job. I don't see school teachers having to deal with the remains of a drunk driver who hits a van full of kids killing several. I don't see school teachers knocking on the door of a home to tell someone how their loved one was killed by a teenager texting while driving.

Yet,, a Highway Patrol officer does this all the time AND gets less pay & less respect. Appalling.

Ok, rant off.

 

[eveled]

While I completely understand and agree with your “rant”. That they deserve more pay.

I find it interesting that you mentioned the 26 weeks of training for LEO.

Yet you did not mention the 6 years of college the teachers have to complete.

You also did not mention the overtime and details available to LEO many double their salary

Its not only LEO that are in short supply, truck drivers plumbers HVAC techs etc. all in short supply. Nobody wants to work it seems.

 

[pyth0n]

The post about the truck driver getting awarded a judgement for a wrongful arrest is interesting, but I didn't want to hijack that thread.

PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS THREAD POLITICAL, IT IS NOT!!

The current political & public climate of attitudes towards law enforcement is sad. Just last night, on our local news, there was a story about how NC is currently suffering from the lack of enough Highway Patrol officers. Across the state,, we are short by over 200 officers. So, they are trying a program to recruit officers who have already been certified as LEO,,, and reduce the necessary training time to try & fill these empty positions.
And it's not just our Highway Patrol,, it's most law enforcement agencies across our State & much of the nation.

But what really got me about the whole story,, and the MAIN focus of this post, was the pay scale for the Highway Patrol. I was appalled at the starting pay. $46,000.00 a year. This for a person who has to undergo 26 weeks of training, and deal with death on the highway. A person who has to wear a bullet proof vest daily to HOPEFULLY survive being attacked by criminals. A person who puts their life on the line daily and tries to help the public as much as they can.

And why is this truly appalling?

Starting salary for a school teacher is $54,000.00 a year. AND we get constant demands by the teachers in our states wanting more benefits, more pay, & they cry poor mouth all the time. They claim that NC is "among the lowest paid teachers in the country. They claim they need more benefits. Yet,, they are required to have school open 180 days a year,, (and yes, I know they work more days than that,) but want MORE benefits.

I don't see school teachers wearing a bullet proof vest daily. I don't see school teachers out all hours of the day & night in all kinds of weather doing their job. I don't see school teachers having to deal with the remains of a drunk driver who hits a van full of kids killing several. I don't see school teachers knocking on the door of a home to tell someone how their loved one was killed by a teenager texting while driving.

Yet,, a Highway Patrol officer does this all the time AND gets less pay & less respect. Appalling.

Ok, rant off.

 

[protoolman]

Throughout most of my law enforcement career people would ask if I was going to apply to work for the state (highway patrol- Montana does not have state police). I would tell them heck no! Why would I take a pay cut, have to work where they sent me, and have the least authority of any police officer in the state? Little known fact is that most western states fear a state police authority so established a highway patrol with authority only over crimes related to public roads and " ways open to the public. In the west a Sheriff has the most authority in his county. Then Police chief in his city. Last in authority is highway patrol but they have biggest jurisdiction (statewide). They typically are just traffic enforcement, DUIs, etc and crash investigation. Any crime, burglary,domestic abuse etc usually is immediately claimed by a Sheriff's deputy. Unfortunately hiring for all law enforcement is lowering standards so the quality of all of us is getting worse. My last several years as a police Chief in Montana and the North Dakota I released under probation (let go) over half of the poor quality candidates the Academy was sending out for new hires. I'm not for paying police more money until we figure out how to get more professional people hired. But then that's the problem everywhere. The last generation has too many kids who weren't raised right, don't want to work etc.

 

[Cholo]

I know contender's already mentioned some of what I'm about to post. I'm just trying to put this in some kind of order and can't do it without covering those statements already made. So...

I wonder how many days/hours the average teacher puts in per year. I know they don't get all the days off the students do, but with summer break, fall break, Christmas break, spring break and all of the national holidays, well, you get the point.

Students need 180 days to complete a school year. 180 ÷ 7 (days in a week) = 25.7 weeks out of 52 weeks in a year. This leaves 26.3 weeks time they're not in school.

I think the point I'm making is clear. LEO's don't get anywhere near that much time off.

To make an accurate yearly salary comparison you'd have to take the average number of weeks a teacher works and extrapolate (I love that word LOL) that to how many weeks an LEO works. You'll see it's pretty out of proportion.

I'm def. not picking on our teachers, nor elevating LEO's to a higher status.

 

[purebred]

In today's economics, job descriptions, day to day living and danged near anything else it's awful hard to talk about anything and everything without it becoming political in one way or another. Teachers? School boards ? police forces ? Military ? I think you get my drift.

 

[turd]

Protoolman, good post. I always wondered why some eastern states have state police and we (South Dakota) have highway patrol. Now I know, thank you.

 

[Jeepnik]

Society has always paid those who risk their lives the least. To make the same annual salary in the military you have to be an E-6 with 8 years of service.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I am too lazy to look it up but if the most respected jobs pay the least where are normal working people going? I have an answer I think. Public service jobs pay the least and private sector jobs pay better. It is what we are doing with our taxes that is making things the way they are.

 

[dweis]

That is a low starting salary for a state trooper. In PA the starting salary is $65,673 annually. Their initial training period is 28 weeks. They must have an associate degree from an institution of higher learning to apply.

 

[turd]

Public service jobs may pay the least, but they all have significant pensions and benefits. Private sector jobs pay more, but you are typically on your own for retirement benefits.

 

[pyth0n]

I know contender's already mentioned some of what I'm about to post. I'm just trying to put this in some kind of order and can't do it without covering those statements already made. So...

I wonder how many days/hours the average teacher puts in per year. I know they don't get all the days off the students do, but with summer break, fall break, Christmas break, spring break and all of the national holidays, well, you get the point.

Students need 180 days to complete a school year. 180 ÷ 7 (days in a week) = 25.7 weeks out of 52 weeks in a year. This leaves 26.3 weeks time they're not in school.

I think the point I'm making is clear. LEO's don't get anywhere near that much time off.

To make an accurate yearly salary comparison you'd have to take the average number of weeks a teacher works and extrapolate (I love that word LOL) that to how many weeks an LEO works. You'll see it's pretty out of proportion.

I'm def. not picking on our teachers, nor elevating LEO's to a higher status.

As a side note, but in keeping with your post, when I was on active duty, IIRC it was the Gov. Accounting office sent us letters comparing our career field to our civilian counter part. At my letter stated that, with all pay & benefits, I was making 21% less (E6 w/10 yrs). My son retired in 2014 & said his letter had him at 17%. so Some improvement. Now they said that in part was because of our retirement program, 20 years at 50% & cost of living adjustments. Cost of living adjustments not given to many city state or local LEO or FD employees.
So I understand & agree with your & Contender's post.

 

[Kevin]

The thing about teachers is, they can go years without a raise. And nowadays they need more education than police officers. Usually a master’s degree.


I’m not putting down police officers, just discussing salaries.

A police officer if he or she is any good will rise through the ranks much faster than a teacher. Teachers will stay at the same level for years.

Also, don’t the police get overtime? Teachers don’t.

However, both salary levels Contender mentioned are very low. How can you raise a family on $50k a year? It sounds like a lot but really isn’t. Car, housing, medical, insurance, food etc. that 50 will go very fast.

 

[hittman]

There’s no making an apples to apples comparison between teachers and LEOs. Way way too many variations from state to state; maybe even city to city.

I’m in IL but border MO. Less than 10 years ago starting pay for IL Trooper was almost $60k. MO was in the $35 range. IL had then nearly 100 retired Troopers under the age of 55 drawing a lifetime pension of $100k. Hard to explain that without making this a political thread and bashing politicians and the unions that own them.

It’s the systems and people who run them that are most corrupt.

 

[Dave P.]

I think Michigan State police start at $55,000 per year and if they don't gain rank go to about $80,000 after 8-10 years.
Thread drift....
As far as living on $50,000 per year, well that's why your wife, partner, ??? also has a job. Maybe have one or no
kids instead of 3 or 4.
Actually in some parts of the country if you lived a simple life you would do ok on $50,000 without kids.
Along the lines of wasting money i was just thinking about what my wife and I spent on lets call it "communications"
Comcast cable TV and internet at home is about $225.00 per month. Our 2 cell phones Verizon 5G plan is about $200
per month and we still ( don't ask ME why ) have a land line at about $65.00 per month.
Basically $6000 per year to watch stray crap on TV, you tube videos and talk on the phone.
Sounds pretty stupid when I think about it!

 

[hittman]

Also, don’t the police get overtime?

Many don’t, some do I’m sure.
Some of the locals I know are awarded “comp time” when they work more than 40 hours a week. That’s NOT at time and a half, just straight time.

 

[Kevin]

Hittman, thanks for the explanation.

So are police paid by the hour? That’s something I’ve always wondered about.

And then how do they keep track of their hours?

 

[Kevin]

Dave P: Not to get off topic, but those figures are the same as what we pay for television and phones.

So sure, you may be able to live on $4,000 a month (BEFORE taxes). But you won't have many children, and won't be driving a new car. Pets? they are super expensive, especially dogs. Then try paying off your house and saving for retirement.

 

[jimbo1096]

Our great State of Louisiana has State Police that investigate major crimes, patrol state and interstate highways, perform DOT truck inspections and escort duties. They have a Governor protection detail, much like that of the Secret Service for the President. They have far reaching police powers throughout the state. And have recently been embroiled in several cases of police brutality.
Pay scale runs about $46k to an mean average of $80k. I have family that have worked their way through the system, starting as local fire dept. to city PD and then some to LA State Trooper. Just to work their way up the pay scale. One has gone on to the State Fire Marshall department. That is a far reaching police power that actually has more influence than most other agency's. While we have local Sheriff PD whose local powers are quite strong LA State Troopers go anywhere and do anything.
All police agencies in the state are understaffed. My city PD says they are roughly 20% undermanned and have pulled officers out of all other departments to go back to patrol. Officers go down, crime goes up. It is all over the country, nobody wants the job anymore.

 

[kmoore]

This is a general idea of a police job pay. Unless the dept recognizes laterals transfers and pays for time in police work.
Starting is basic pay, some add college degree like 3% for AA degree, 5% for BA degree etc. Yearly pay increases named merit or rank pay. Top pay is set at 5 years or maybe 8 to 10. After that pay increases could be at spaced out 5 years or so. Most officer positions will pay OT, most supervisor positions will not.
Now add work contacts where pay levels can change normally in a 2 year cycle. Many officer positions are union jobs, most supervisor nonunion. I worked for 4 different PDs in 39 years, all had officer union jobs and all said no one could picket or go out on strike. I worked once for 2 years without any contact signed since negotiations dragged on and on. Normally it was months without a new working contract. Sometimes back pay was ordered, sometimes not. I do see teachers shutting down schools over union contracts not so much in police work.
I worked during a time when 3 contacts, that's 6 years there was no pay increase other than merit pay.
Also, during those 39 years, I choose positions for 18 years that there was no OT pay. When I worked a 16 hour day, I got comp time. Meaning paid time off or only worked 4 days that week instead of 5. I was on call out for 9 years without a penny of extra pay. I was called to work at any point during my day or time off. Myself, I never had weekends off. Most holidays were workdays. I think I worked graveyard or swing shifts for about 20 years. All court and training were during the daytime and scheduled around judges or trainers' workdays and hours not mine.
I am not complaining, I knew most of that when I signed up. Just pointing out what others may have no clue about.
In the end most police jobs allow full retirement in 20 to 25 years. After about 45 to 50 years old. When working cops get even minor injuries or hurt they tend to need time off. I for one don't want a traffic cop walking up to a traffic stop using a cane or walker. So, I support full retirement at ages around 50-55 not expecting uniformed police offices needing to work into their 60s.

 

[bobski]

approx 900.00 a week isnt good pay?
im living on 30,000 a year. its feeds 2 households and keeps up 4 houses in 3 states.
is it me? 'waste not want not' tends to run in our family veins.
im making it ok.
granted, i dont own new things. and i shop goodwill, but im alive and well.
i did save in my lifetime. been robbed a few times but im still here and doing ok.
now...do leos get perk cash like military does? like other pays for other situations? (combat/flt deck, hazdu, comrats/dep-pay/etc..) if so, the number you quoted may be misleading.

 

[Paul B]

"I wonder how many days/hours the average teacher puts in per year. I know they don't get all the days off the students do, but with summer break, fall break, Christmas break, spring break and all of the national holidays, well, you get the point."

Don't know if I applies to all states but a few teachers I know say that when summer vacation comes around, they're required to take more classes related to the subjects they teach.

On LEO pay. one of my sons in law is a retired cop fome Mesa AZ. Retire from the Mesa PD and went to work for the state police. Did just enough to qualify for a retirement check and went to work as a cop at one of the universities. Snagged a third retirement check and now works at one of the local gun stores. His wife worked as a parole office until retirement and between the two of them their take home pay is well over $100 K a year. His wife is OK but he's a bit of a wreck with some possibly serious PSTD. I knew him as a kid as he ran around with my stepson and he was too much of a gentle nature to be a cop. That job can take a hell of a lot out of a person. It's one I don't think I would ever try doing, even if I was young enough.
Paul B.

 

[314Chevy]

Per glassdoor.com the estimated pay for an NC State Trooper is $73K. Keep in mind the retirement benefits are probably very good starting at age 55. The $46K is pay during the 13 week training which bumps up to $50K after graduation from Patrol School. $73K seems low to me for the responsibility the Troopers have however the cost of living in NC is considerably lower than places like CA (note that's why I left San Diego for NC). My interaction with NC Highway Patrol (in case you are wondering I have a lead foot but try to do better) has always been good. They are respectful and professional.
Any way there's my 2 cents.

 

[hittman]

Hittman, thanks for the explanation.

So are police paid by the hour? That’s something I’ve always wondered about.

And then how do they keep track of their hours?

Kevin that varies between departments, states, etc.
Generally YES its hourly but, more senior staff may be “salary”.
They’re on duty the second they log into their computer in their car and paid until they log off. At least that’s in the departments I have personal knowledge of.

 

[Kevin]

Don't know if I applies to all states but a few teachers I know say that when summer vacation comes around, they're required to take more classes related to the subjects they teach.

Both of my parents are retired teachers. I taught for about 4 years. And yes, continuing education is required (at YOUR expense too).

When I was at the school, I stayed two weeks after the kids got out and cleaned up and then started again a week before they came back in August. So when you tally up the days teachers work, you can't just count the days they are in school. Many teachers put in hours on the weekends getting ready for the week. The good ones at least.

And how many teachers buy their own supplies for the classroom? I spent a good portion of my paycheck on supplies etc. And that does include food for those kids that didn't have any.

I guess I'm passionate when it comes to teachers and their salary. I remember needing new shoes as a kid, and having to wait until the 25th of the month when my mom got paid. Or just plain doing without a lot of stuff because we couldn't afford it.

approx 900.00 a week isnt good pay?
im living on 30,000 a year. its feeds 2 households and keeps up 4 houses in 3 states.

Bobski, you are retired I believe, yes? I'm also willing to bet those houses are paid for. It's a lot different for the working class with kids to feed and buy shoes and clothes. And not to badger you or put you down, but in your thread about the tree falling on the neighbors fence, you stated you couldn't afford the $2,500 deductible. Just sayin' is all.

 

[krw]

One thing all yall need to figure out, how do you pay for all this?? And I will be very truthfull, lots of people make teachers who don’t need to be teachers and lots of people get in law enforcement who have 0 business being there. The main problem with education is Teachers teach down. In Arkansas when Clinton was Governor He started no child left behind. The students that suffered with that were the more intelligent top 1/2. Just a fact. And there was a higher percentage of Minorities in the bottom half.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I found a table that might be interesting to some. It shows the average annual salary of various occupations. It doesn't say why they earn what they do which is the key question here, I think. Doctors seem to do very well, Merchandise Displayers and Window Trimmers not so much.

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm

 

[kmoore]

Bobski asked about perk pay.
Special assignments like K9, motorcycle duty, training coach, Bomb tech. pilot, diver, SWAT team will normally be a few percent more added to the pay. Some have a little more precent added for graveyard shifts. My contract was a min 3 hours of pay when called out from home.

 

[Fox Mike]

Being married to a retired special education school teacher I can tell you that it isn't a 7:00-3:30 job. Linda went through 4 years of college just to get her Bachelor degree. Then another two years for her required Master degree. She was just a couple credits shy of her second Master when she retired. I cannot speak for any other teacher but Linda also worked hours each night correcting/grading papers and dealing with the untold reams of paperwork that goes along with teaching 'special' children. She earned ever penny she received. Comparing teachers salaries to Law Enforcement salaries is "apples and oranges"

 

[wolfsong]

Some random observations on my part, with no continuity. I'll start with saying that no salary is sufficient when you die in the line of duty. In Corrections there is a saying that "We get paid for what MIGHT happen." Some days are 7 hours and 45 minutes of sheer monotony and 15 minutes of utter chaos. Teaching in our public schools and working in law enforcement are not for the faint of heart; it is a very small percentage of mankind who can actually be successful at it. Teachers and LEOs are grossly underpaid, while all the same they are making a decent living. Both professions are hell on your nervous system. The divorce rate, suicide rate and cases of substance abuse with LEOs is off the charts. Somebody needs to do both jobs; thank those that do, support them and get out of the way - unless YOU want to do it. Take neither profession for granted, for they protect us all, in the present AND in the future. Lastly, don't spend too much time thinking about this topic - we all knew what we were signing up for, including the amount of pay.

Peace and God bless, Wolfie.