Is it strong enough 2 - any opinions???

[Rugerbilly]

Back on the 20th, I posted a link regarding my Winchester lever action rifle in .45 Colt. Upon closer inspection of the top of the receiver, I discovered that actually it is a Model 94AE, NOT a 92.

I had the day off today, so I took a ride over to a gunshop owned by a very knowledgable gunsmith. Ironically, he's the same fellow that replaced the terrible factory sights on this gun around 15 years ago, when he was the smith at another gunshop before he opened his own place. Now he's got his own shop. Good for him

The stock sights on a 94AE are adjustable only for elevation, but my gunsmith replaced them with a nifty, round Williams peep sight that is adjustable both for windage and elevation. It gives the best view of the target of any open sights I've ever shot.

The little rifle shoots like a son of a gun. I figured it deserved better sights than the frankly awful ones that it came with.

Anyway.......my gunsmith did not hesitate for even a second, when I asked him whether the 94AE will tolerate the improved .45 Colt handloads that I make up for my Bisley Blackhawk, using magnum primers, slow-burning ball powders, and 300 grain JHP bullets. He unequivocally stated that the Winchester rifle is stronger than the Blackhawk, and will handle such reloads with no problem.

Any opinions?

 

[Rick Courtright]

Any opinions?

Hi,

Yes, but a lot of people won't like 'em:

Any gun is "strong enough" for what the FACTORY that built it says it is. Any claim otherwise is opinion.

Does Ruger ok handloads? No. Does Ruger ok "Ruger only" loads? No. Are "Ruger only" loads even a Ruger designation, or that of somebody else? No and yes.

Does Winchester ok handloads? I dunno for sure, but would suspect they follow the industry standard of "Not recommending" them at the least. If somebody made up what they advertise as a "Ruger only" load, do you see the words "Ok for Winchesters, too" included in the literature? I haven't.

So what's my point in being so "skeptical" of some of the things we see about "overloading" cartridges?

It's simple: ONLY the factory that built the gun KNOWS for sure what it's designed to take, what its design life is, what materials are used, what CHANGES in materials have been made along the way, usually to save some money but possibly compromising strength in the deal.

So... it's quite possible that a gun was originally designed w/ a 100% safety margin. Then a line change was made that reduced the margin to 75%. Still quite comfortable. Another change reduced the margin to 50%. This is still plenty for most uses w/o worry of damage to the gun w/ factory spec'd ammo (SAAMI spec, too.)

Now, a guy reads a story that says because of the original 100% safety margin on a particular gun, he can load his ammo to 50% over SAAMI and it will still be safe. This still gives him a 33% safety margin if he has one of the original "100% overbuilt" models. That's not great, but probably ok.

However, neither he nor the writer realizes that the gun he just bought is one of the "downsized" models that only has that 50% margin built in. He can't tell just by looking: the dimensions may be identical but the steel's been changed, for example (as Ruger did w/ some of their stainless models some years ago.) He's feeding it 150% loads consistently, which means he's right at the edge, no margin.

But he figures he's all right, cuz the gun hasn't blown up. Yet? He forgets, that in the grand scheme of things, few guns actually blow up catastrophically w/ a few overloads, compared to those that are damaged over a period of time shooting ammo "overloaded" for the gun and/or caliber.

So one day he heads to the range, and loads up, not w/ his usual "hot" loads, but standard SAAMI spec ammo, and suddenly his gun comes apart. Why? It has been progressively weakened to the point it's no longer safe even at "normal" pressures.

I had a glass case full of examples of this "phenomenon" when I ran a trap and skeet range. Many of our "specimens" were blown using standard target loads. But many shared another trait: we knew their shooters, those shooters' loading practices, and, in at least a few cases, had previously "talked to" those shooters about their loading. And the shooters themselves generally shared the same "But I was shooting factory (or factory spec?) ammo when it let go. How'd THAT happen?" wonder and amazement when they had their mishaps.

Now, at the risk of seeming callous, we didn't care what these guys did to their own guns, or even themselves. But when you take a guy to the hospital to get shrapnel pulled out of his leg, whose only "involvement" in the situation was to be standing where some of the pieces flew, it can color your perspective some!

So, if you want to load your ammo, to use in your gun, to some ethereal spec, nobody's going to tell you that you can't. That's what that disclaimer about "assuming all responsibility for the safety of one's reloads" wording in the books is all about.

And if you get away w/ it, fine. Perhaps your gun IS one of those which has that initial 100% margin, and all our worry is for naught. OTOH, if it's not, and you hurt someone, don't be surprised if they don't take it lightly. Even to the point of involving lawyers (have seen that one, too. Quite costly in a variety of ways.)

But please don't tell us you KNOW your gun is safe at loads over and above what the factory advises unless you're doing so while giving us a tour of your lab and testing facilities, ok?

You asked for opinions: those are mine. Nobody has to agree, and a lot won't... as the book suggests, the risk is theirs. But few will admit regret for erring on the side of caution!

Rick C

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Rick C makes some good points and I am no expert on the Win 94 but I do own one in 357mag and I know they were chambered in several different cartridges including 44mag. 30-30 and 38-55 as well as 45colt. I believe the mechanism is strong enough for 'Ruger Only' 45colt loads and by all accounts the barrel should be also. In fact some have tried to chamber the Win 94AE in 454 Linebaugh but it was shot loose with those.

Check with some of the other websites like 'Leverguns' and the 'HighRoad' they have a lot of knowledgeable people there when it comes to leverguns. Paco Kelly is another good resource but I don't know his website any more. 8) 8)

...Jimbo

 

[Wyandot Jim]

Rick C

Very good info and a great way to look at the big boomers.

OP if ya want to shoot big boomers get a 1886 or a 1895 in 45-70. :roll:
So how long did you have the 94 and think it was a 92 :wink: Loading gate is a dead give away. :lol: :lol:

 

[m657]

Re: "whether the 94AE will tolerate the improved .45 Colt handloads "

I'm short on facts but will share my opinion.....

every time I find myself in that position, of having to guess whether KaBOOOM is a potential result of pulling the trigger, and having in mind the ugly memory of seeing a few over the years of people I knew at the range---albeit casually--I resolve that uncomfortable feeling by upgrading my weapon to a larger capacity as designed from the factory, and reserve that favored one for the pleasures of 'mere' standard loads.

Life's too short to add suffering though the misery of destroying a beloved weapon merely by pretending I can suspend the laws of ballistic thermodynamics.

Besides, it gives excuse to get another gun....always an advantage.

 

[Lee Martin]

You can safely load 94's up to 30,000 PSI (ie, "Ruger" only). I wouldn't recommend going higher though.

 

[M'BOGO]

Handloader 276 was in the mail box Wednesday, and the cursory look made me think of you prior post on this subject. The From the Hip column, is titled Battle of the .45 Colt Bulge, about the subject of brass fired in .45 Colt model 94 AE's. Different sizing dies were used and compared, checking the brass in minimum spec chambers..

Worth a read

 

[dennie]

Paco Kelly's forum is: www.levergunscommunity.com
Lots of good folks there, are plenty of levergun knowledge.
dennie

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

Another opinion on the use of high pressure .45 Colt loads comes from Chuck Hawks:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/high-pressure45.htm

While he doesn't say "Don't do it," Mr. Hawks does offer some good ideas on what to do (or not) for those of you who choose to overload the .45 Colt. It's an interesting read...

Rick C