Is 357 Too Much For Town Carry

[writwing]

Wondering if a 357 in a snubie or a 357 SIG Baby Glock would have too mach chance of over penetration in an urban setting.

 

[BlkHawk73]

Would greatly depend on the load/bullet. O one extreme a hot loaded hard cast would certainly penetrate and then some. On the other extreme, Glaser would not. Pick a happy medium. :)

 

[steve b]

Its a matter of bullet choice, not caliber or cartridge. If you use bullets on the lighter side, you'll get somewhat less penetration. If you use Speer Gold Dot in the short barrel version, you'll get less penetration. Of course I'm talking about using hollow point bullets. We generally think of them as causing more damage, but they retard penetration primarily. The expanding bullet de-celerates faster and the larger frontal area as it hits the far side skin layer, makes a second punture, or exit wound less likely. There are more radical bullet designs that further retard penetration, I don't recommend them, such as Glaser bullets and those made of sintered metal chips, compressed. This is a subject much pondered by those concerned with Church security, mall, bus, or aircraft security,etc.. steve b

 

[Hazama Yakiba]

.357 Mag CORBON Pow-RBall 100 grain Velocity: 1450fps. Energy: 467ftlbs. is the ticket if you intend on carrying a gun loaded with 357Mag ammo like I do in my RUGER KLCR Snubbie when I'm out n' about.

Each Pow-RBall round no matter the caliber, is specially designed to "Dump ALL of its Energy" inside the subject, and therefore over-penetration is extremely rare if ever (emphasis added), and that's a good thing.

Additionally, the super-speedy 100 grain Pow-RBall in 9mm +P Velocity: 1475fps. Energy: 483ftlbs. is absolutely beyond fabulous for RUGER's SR9 & SR9C series of weaponry.

Notice the Energy of the EXEMPLARY 9mm +P round as compared to the 357 (the 9mm is higher).

VISIT--> http://corbon.com/Pow-RBall.html

Haz :::Has spent, or more aptly stated, WASTED TOO MUCH MONEY on a whole host of popular self-defense rounds, so this recommendation is based on years of research, ballistics, testing and practical application:::

 

[Don Lovel]

Winchester Ranger 125gr SXT 357 Sig will expand to about the size of a quarter after going through clothes and torso, dumping about all of it's energy on the impact.

 

[Anthony Williams]

To answer the question, no a .357 is not too much caliber. What I believe should be of major consideration, would be to update one's level of defensive proficiency, knowledge of tactics, and a understanding of your state's laws regarding the use of a handgun in matters of self defense.

A.W.

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

Wondering if a 357 in a snubie or a 357 SIG Baby Glock would have too mach chance of over penetration in an urban setting.

What urban setting? CCW or home defense? Are you talking about the mall or a trailer park or a traditional neighborhood? For home defense, a 12 gauge is usually a better choice (not so much for a CCW). I think your question requires quite a bit more info to answer properly.

 

[scary]

Handgun ammo over-penetration is an interesting topic because it is another example of ammunition sellers erecting a straw-man to shoot [through] :)

Far more bullets fired in anger/defense miss the target entirely and are much more of a concern. While there are many reports of errant rounds hitting uninvolved subjects, there are few (if any) reports of handgun rounds passing through the initial target and hitting others.

Handgun over-penetration depends entirely on where the target is hit. A .380 fmj can pass completely through a human abdomen if no hard structures are hit. That's why it's a funny subject because you rarely hear of fears concerning .380 overpenetration!

Given the infinite combinations of target width and composition, it is more important to have adequate penetration to reach vital organs and the CNS. "Self Defense" ammunition designed to fragment upon impact are in serious danger of not penetrating deep enough, especially after passing through clothing.

The extremely rare occurances of handgun over-penetration causing injuries to third parties does not justify the risky nature of novelty ammunition.

One caveat to my comments is using reduced penetration ammo to prevent over-penetration through structures for the number of rounds that completely miss the target. This is a real concern, given the number of documented injuries caused by errant rounds. This risk must be weighed or mitigated.

 

[Hazama Yakiba]

Jayhawkhuntclub...

Every tactical expert or home defense instructor I've ever met (and I've met hundreds) all say the same thing, specifically...

"A shotgun sucks for home defense".

Yes, I know, everyone says "...get a shotgun for your house."., but that's just an Urban Myth that holds no realistic weight or real-life value in a residential setting, especially if you have a family... and a bad guy breaks in and grabs your wife, or perhaps grabs one of your kids.

Whadda ya gonna do then?

Blow everyone away with your 12 gauge trying to dispatch the BadGuy ?

A handgun is the preferred "tool" for close quarter combat (stealthier).

Haz ps. CCW "setting" doesn't matter when it comes to your selection of hopefully well thought out handgun ammo for self-defense, what matters most is ARE YOU TRAINED (???) well enough to accurately place multiple rounds within the critical mass area without missing your subject...that's what matters most.

 

[steve b]

Though I've had two day courses in tactical use of shotguns and assault weapons, and such, neither get the nod for within my home. There are factors to consider. In my case, upon exiting the master bedroom, there are 3 other doorways and the start of a hallway, all within 6ft.. Too much manuevering needed in too many directions, the possibilty of having to grapple, etc.. Other concerns for some of you, children to be herded, need a free hand. If spouse is a sheeple or liable to go into denial, and have to be herded, etc.. Need free hand. The longest line of sight in my home is @ 42 ft, not much spread yet even with no choke. Shotguns are kinda the default recommendation made to people of unkown skill level. steve b

 

[Hazama Yakiba]

+1 to what steve b says.

Haz

 

[glockman99]

I carry my 2.75" Police Service-Six, loaded with 6 of the Federal 158 grain Hydra-Shock, and I feel very "confortable" with this gun & load.

 

[Festus]

I've been carrying my SP101 357 for personal protection for a couple years now. 125gr Cor Bon gets the vote for me. Rounds on target usually aren't the problem from a public safety aspect. Loose rounds in an urban environment are bad ju ju. At that point it doesn't matter much what you are using, there is a high likelyhood of a problem. Be it a 9mm,40 S&W or one of any number of carry rounds,loose bullets in town are bad business. You can't prepare for every contingency, so I give myself as high a likelyhood of surviving an attack as I can without being too extreme. I have carried a 3" 29 and 180gr HPs before. A little overkill I must admit. Priority one is survival. We'll deal with the civil suits as needed.

 

[Big Stu]

I would worry more about where your bullets go if or when you miss your target as opposed to after you hit your target. Most good factory hollow point ammo will give up its energy and not overpenetrate. Just use high quality factory hollow points and you should be fine. I would NOT use full metal jacket for delf defense.

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

Jayhawkhuntclub...

Every tactical expert or home defense instructor I've ever met (and I've met hundreds) all say the same thing, specifically...

"A shotgun sucks for home defense".

Yes, I know, everyone says "...get a shotgun for your house."., but that's just an Urban Myth that holds no realistic weight or real-life value in a residential setting, especially if you have a family... and a bad guy breaks in and grabs your wife, or perhaps grabs one of your kids.

Whadda ya gonna do then?

Blow everyone away with your 12 gauge trying to dispatch the BadGuy ?

A handgun is the preferred "tool" for close quarter combat (stealthier).

Haz ps. CCW "setting" doesn't matter when it comes to your selection of hopefully well thought out handgun ammo for self-defense, what matters most is ARE YOU TRAINED (???) well enough to accurately place multiple rounds within the critical mass area without missing your subject...that's what matters most.

That's funny! So what are you going to do if the bad guy grabs your loved one? Surely, you not foolish enough to shoot the guy off them with any gun. If so, you're among the uber elite. Sounds like you watch too many movies.

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

Handgun ammo over-penetration is an interesting topic because it is another example of ammunition sellers erecting a straw-man to shoot [through] :)

Far more bullets fired in anger/defense miss the target entirely and are much more of a concern. While there are many reports of errant rounds hitting uninvolved subjects, there are few (if any) reports of handgun rounds passing through the initial target and hitting others.

Handgun over-penetration depends entirely on where the target is hit. A .380 fmj can pass completely through a human abdomen if no hard structures are hit. That's why it's a funny subject because you rarely hear of fears concerning .380 overpenetration!

Given the infinite combinations of target width and composition, it is more important to have adequate penetration to reach vital organs and the CNS. "Self Defense" ammunition designed to fragment upon impact are in serious danger of not penetrating deep enough, especially after passing through clothing.

The extremely rare occurances of handgun over-penetration causing injuries to third parties does not justify the risky nature of novelty ammunition.

One caveat to my comments is using reduced penetration ammo to prevent over-penetration through structures for the number of rounds that completely miss the target. This is a real concern, given the number of documented injuries caused by errant rounds. This risk must be weighed or mitigated.

Good post! You're right if we never miss, it's likely a non-issue. I know I NEVER miss. 8)

 

[wixedmords]

Your concerns are your concerns writwing. I would not judge of the viability of those concerns. You need to weigh it in your own mind.

Every caliber has a sweet spot. A 125 grain of a minimal expanding generic hollow point can over penetrate in a person if loaded to its full capability in .357 Mag. But that same bullet could, depending on the loading, be very adequate in .38 Special or in a reduced speed .357 Mag load. The difference would be the speed and therefore the energy. Driving that 125 grain bullet slower will give it less energy. Next, a lighter bullet will deflect much easier, likely to cause less damage as it dissipates its energy. While not fully frangible you may want to look toward a 110 grain bullet that delivers great expansion, one of the more modern load offerings as others have spoken of. That expansion will cause the lighter bullet to break up a bit easier and the weight will lessen the penetration.

If a lighter bullet doesn't inspire confidence in regards to a backstop, you may want to look toward a truly frangible loading. But, at some point a round may become so frangible that it doesn't stay together enough to do the job. Forsaking the forest for the trees, so to speak. Some of the most frangible loads make me think they won't retain enough weight when they penetrate the target.

Keep in mind you will never be completely devoid of responsibility in regards to your backstop. You will never be able to take it out of the equation. Like the theory of "every gun is a loaded gun", it may be best to think of every backstop as unsafe. That would drive you toward a better shot selection.

Keep the thought going and look into it deeper. You will need to be confident in that load, confident enough to pull the trigger when you need to. Confident enough to know that load is going to do what you need it to. A lack of confidence can cause that pause that can be deadly.

The short version is that you are likely headed toward something frangible. Just make sure to test it to make sure it stays together enough.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

When talking about self-defense with a short barreled gun the velocity at which hollow-point bullets open and mushroom will be an important factor. Standard velocity 38 specials and 9mm leave something to be desired for some situations. The 357 magnum and the 38 super ensure that the bullet will have enough velocity to function as designed.

That said; I prefer to carry 38 special+P in my CCW gun for the fact that I can shoot them so much better and that the noise and blast would be so much less. 8) 8)

...Jimbo

 

[scary]

Good post! You're right if we never miss, it's likely a non-issue. I know I NEVER miss. 8)

That little guy? You don't have to worry about that little guy!

 

[Glock2740]

I CC a Glock in .357 Sig from time to time and have CC'd my SP101 in .357 Magnum. I want something that's gonna get the job done if I need to use it in a SHTF situation. I CC a couple of 10mm Glocks from time to time as well. The 10mm is a pretty potent round too. :)

 

[WESHOOT2]

No.

Certain projectiles choices might be ill-considered, though.....

 

[Rugerbilly]

When talking about self-defense with a short barreled gun the velocity at which hollow-point bullets open and mushroom will be an important factor. Standard velocity 38 specials and 9mm leave something to be desired for some situations. The 357 magnum and the 38 super ensure that the bullet will have enough velocity to function as designed.

That said; I prefer to carry 38 special+P in my CCW gun for the fact that I can shoot them so much better and that the noise and blast would be so much less. 8) 8)

...Jimbo

I agree with your point, Jimbo. The reasons I carry a hammerless .38 Special +P Airweight revolver as my CCW is that 1) it's light enough to carry around for hours comfortably, 2) I can draw it quickly and shoot it well, 3) I know a revolver is going to fire every time, 4) the power is adequate (in an urban setting, if you should have to discharge your weapon, your assailant is probably going to be pretty close to you).
IMHO, the Ruger LCR .38 and the S&W Airweight .38 are two of the most practical and functional CCWs.

 

[ADP3]

In an urban setting you want to carry a load that you would want your neighbor to carry. Too much penetration can produce undesireable results. I use a 125gr. RP Golden Saber in my .357s to minimize over penetration risks. It's a mid-range .357 load as is the Speer SB Gold Dot. The problems don't always stop after the trigger is pulled.

Best Regards,
ADP3

 

[glockman99]

Handgun ammo over-penetration is an interesting topic because it is another example of ammunition sellers erecting a straw-man to shoot [through] :)

Far more bullets fired in anger/defense miss the target entirely and are much more of a concern. While there are many reports of errant rounds hitting uninvolved subjects, there are few (if any) reports of handgun rounds passing through the initial target and hitting others.

Handgun over-penetration depends entirely on where the target is hit. A .380 fmj can pass completely through a human abdomen if no hard structures are hit. That's why it's a funny subject because you rarely hear of fears concerning .380 overpenetration!

Given the infinite combinations of target width and composition, it is more important to have adequate penetration to reach vital organs and the CNS. "Self Defense" ammunition designed to fragment upon impact are in serious danger of not penetrating deep enough, especially after passing through clothing.

The extremely rare occurances of handgun over-penetration causing injuries to third parties does not justify the risky nature of novelty ammunition.

One caveat to my comments is using reduced penetration ammo to prevent over-penetration through structures for the number of rounds that completely miss the target. This is a real concern, given the number of documented injuries caused by errant rounds. This risk must be weighed or mitigated.

Good post! You're right if we never miss, it's likely a non-issue. I know I NEVER miss. 8)

I never miss...I don't have time to miss. :^)

 

[ShortBBL]

With a 357, I would be more worried about my ears than overpenetration!

Have you ever shot a 357 with no hearing protection? OMG...... brutal!

 

[Zeus]

With a 357, I would be more worried about my ears than overpenetration!

Have you ever shot a 357 with no hearing protection? OMG...... brutal!

Even worse from inside a vehicle or a house :)

 

[JimMarch1]

I've looked at this extensively since my daily-carry-without-fail piece (and home defense!) is a NewVaq357.

Best answer is to use a fairly light, high-tech, high-chance-of-expansion round and get it going as balls-out as you can for your gun size and ability to cope with recoil.

The Pow'R'Ball 100gr isn't half bad, esp. out of a shorter barrel. The Barnes X-bullets are the highest-tech-level projectiles made for the 357 right now, and work OK at the speed Cor-Bon drives them at (in the 125gr flavor). I wouldn't trust the 140gr variants as they might over-penetrate. The most white-hot Barnes loadings are the ones Buffalo Bore does BUT they don't use flash-suppressed powder so those probably aren't a good idea! (They're meant as maxed-out hunting loads for areas where lead slugs are banned, such as California.)

Speer's 135gr "357 short barrel special" is really just a warm 38+P, practically speaking. It'll work just fine, but it's not a "real 357". The Remmie Golden Saber 125 is also a "mellow 357" load but a bit warmer, still reasonable.

The most common answer is the Gold Dot 125gr "high speed" projectile loaded to about 1,450fps by Speer and at 1,600fps or more by either DoubleTap Ammo or Buffalo Bore. I have the DoubleTap version, same as I once blew up a bowling ball with :). Despite the monster energy levels, all the test data I've seen says these expand VERY fast (due to the speed) and will dump their energy in 12" to 14" tops...very reasonable in an urban environment.

As to the noise, yeah, it'll be extreme. But that's not without advantages...psychological advantages against the remaining goblins after you just shot the first one. They tend to be very familiar with the sound of a 9mm, 38Spl, even a 45 or 40...but a full-house-and-then-some edgy 357Mag load is in a whole 'nuther category and says "guys, somebody just opened up on your butts with a friggin' cannon" :). See also the noise element of warfare psychology early in the book "On Killing" by Lt. Col. Grossman.

I would not go with a 158gr load of any sort. Somebody mentioned that in a 2.75" barrel - sorry, bad idea. Expansion failure is too big a risk, major overpenetration would result.

In 357Sig the same concept applies: use a quality 125gr slug doing 1,400+ and it should be all good. The Winchester Ranger-T slugs in 357Sig are actually higher-tech than anything available in the 357Mag except for the Barnes slugs - outside of Barnes, projectile development in the 357Mag has basically stalled for something like 8+ years now :(.

 

[Pal Val]

In my opinion, "too much" applies only to TV, political speech and food. You can't have too much of a thing that can save a life.

 

[glockman99]

...I would not go with a 158gr load of any sort. Somebody mentioned that in a 2.75" barrel - sorry, bad idea. Expansion failure is too big a risk, major overpenetration would result...

That was me, and I'm still sticking with the 158 grain Federal Hydra-Shok in my little Ruger .357 magnum revolver...The Hydra-Shok has a proven "track record" as an excellent "fight stopper"...Even in short-barreled .357 magnums.

BTW...I have a brand new box of Hornady .357 magnum 125 grain Critical Defense ammo if anyone is interested in trading a box of .357 magnum 158 grain Federal Hydra-Shoks for it. :^)

 

[BearBio]

Depends where you live. In the last five years we've had 5-7 moose, several bears and several mountain lions downtown.

Asking an audience of computer users is pointless. What a New Yorker needs is way different from what someone in Anchorage needs. Only YOU can decide!