HEADS UP!! Bad lot of WWB?

[GunnyGene]

Could be. Destroyed this CZ.

The pistol is a polymer-framed CZ P-07. CZ-USA has, from examining the pictures, put the blame on the ammunition (Winchester white box ball, lot numberQ4172). Winchester has yet to weigh in.

http://weaponsman.com/?p=37594

 

[DGW1949]

From the FWIW Dept:
(1)..."Q4172" is NOT a lot number, it is Winchester's product number which denotes a 50-Rd box of their 115-FMJ/9MM "Target and Range" ammo. The actual lot number would have been found either embossed into, or ink stamped onto, the inside of one of the end flaps of the box.
(2)...Winchester has used that particular product number for quite a few years, AND has retained it despite whatever changes they have made to the ammo itself and/or to how it's packaged.
(3)...Regarding #2 above, of particular note was the switch to a bigger box for housing the newer Styrofoam bullet tray, and that they switched from a gold-colored primer to a nickeled primer at some point during the "box transition". Perhaps it's the same primer under the plating?...dunno.
(4)...I have personally observed a mixing of head-stamps used within a single lot number, and sometimes within the same 50Rd box.....meaning that ever now and then, Winchester was throwing-in some ammo which had been assembled using primed/sealed/crimped/date-marked NATO-spec cases.
Perhaps a different/thicker brass=higher pressure problem?...again, I dunno.
(5)...I have heard (but cannot confirm) that both Winchester and Federal are now using recycled materials to manufacture the (brass) cases used in their prospective "value lines" of ammo. If that rumor does happen to be true, does the use of recycled material=weaker brass?...once again, I dunno.

Actually, about all I do know relative to the incident itself is that the shooter was purty-dern lucky :shock: ...That, and why the discussions which I've seen on the matter have failed to uncover an actual lot number is a mystery to me.
One would think that somewhere along the line, someone would have known that "Q4172" is NOT the number that Winchester will be looking for if/when he ever decides to contact them.....which I wish he would do, beings how I'm sttin' on close to 2000 Rds of the stuff.

Oh well, at least he didn't throw the box away...yet. :lol: .

DGW

 

[Mus408]

I've used Winchester white box quite often in .45 ACP without any problems ...but you never know!
I reload for .45 ACP now.

Serious issue there!

 

[Cheesewhiz]

Looks to be very likely a case of another roll crimped 9mm case. Winchester does this quite often with that round, very dangerous. The bullet and case get into the rifling and locks the case mouth from expansion and bullet release, no place to go but out the case head.



These are from a box of 100 115gr WWB that a range friend of mine bought some time back. I told him he should not shoot them in his gun, the one on the bottom center of the picture is particularly bad.

CZ's have an abrupt transition from the chamber to the rifling in their pistols, part of what makes the so accurate, there are several other companies that have similar characteristics in their in their barrel making. Springfield XD's and Beretta's come to mind.

 

[DGW1949]

I've used Winchester white box quite often in .45 ACP without any problems ...but you never know!
I reload for .45 ACP now.

Serious issue there!

I've lost count of how much 9MM and .45ACP WWB I've used over the years with very little complaint. Like you said though...ya never know.

DGW

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Looks to be very likely a case of another roll crimped 9mm case.

WOW!!! --WTH-- That is some really bad factory ammo. :shock: :shock:

 

[DGW1949]

Looks to be very likely a case of another roll crimped 9mm case.

WOW!!! --WTH-- That is some really bad factory ammo. :shock: :shock:

Yeah, that's a lot of crimp, especially for a non-crimped cartridge. :lol: .

DGW

 

[GunnyGene]

Good info about the roll crimp, etc. Did any of y'all reply to the posts at weaponsman or Reddit about this?

 

[DGW1949]

Good info about the roll crimp, etc. Did any of y'all reply to the posts at weaponsman or Reddit about this?

This is the only forum I belong to...so nope, not me.
Besides, like I said earlier...If/when the shooter decides to contact Winchester, I'm sure they'll let him know that "Q4172" aint the lot number. :wink: .

In the mean time, I've not seen/read anything that convinces me that what he experienced was even an ammo problem. For all I know, it coulda been a dirt-dobber nest in the barrel...or his gun is out of time...or a stuck firing pin...or that part of a previous bullet-jacket mighta got stuck inside that "tactical" muzzle thingy...or???

DGW

 

[Mus408]

Wow have to watch out for that crimp deal!

 

[Captain America]

...In the mean time, I've not seen/read anything that convinces me that what he experienced was even an ammo problem. For all I know, it coulda been a dirt-dobber nest in the barrel...or his gun is out of time...or a stuck firing pin...or that part of a previous bullet-jacket mighta got stuck inside that "tactical" muzzle thingy...or???

DGW

I'm in this camp...

 

[Chuck 100 yd]

:shock:

...In the mean time, I've not seen/read anything that convinces me that what he experienced was even an ammo problem. For all I know, it coulda been a dirt-dobber nest in the barrel...or his gun is out of time...or a stuck firing pin...or that part of a previous bullet-jacket mighta got stuck inside that "tactical" muzzle thingy...or???

DGW

I'm in this camp...

I agree . Everyone is quick to jump on the ammo maker without knowing ALL of the particulars. The gun and ammo needs to go back to their makers for inspection.

 

[WAYNO]

(4)...I have personally observed a mixing of head-stamps used within a single lot number, and sometimes within the same 50Rd box.....meaning that ever now and then, Winchester was throwing-in some ammo which had been assembled using primed/sealed/crimped/date-marked NATO-spec cases.
Perhaps a different/thicker brass=higher pressure problem?...again, I dunno.
DGW

This is an interesting observation. I use a lot of WWB, and have never had any problems. But, I have also noticed numerous times, in a brand new sealed box, there is ammo of different head stamps.

WAYNO.

 

[Rook]

If I were betting on it I would bet that someone has re-chambered a round numerous times which has caused the feed ramp to knock the bullet back into the casing and when it was fired it blew the gun up.

 

[powder smoke]

Those pics Cheese posted up do not look good. ps

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

Anything's possible as they say, but I'm curious about how all of a sudden a production line making a round like the 9mm which is NOT roll crimped would, or even could, all of a sudden start roll crimping them. Anybody?

Rick C

 

[pruger45]

I'd blame the polymer framed gun!

 

[DGW1949]

Hi,

Anything's possible as they say, but I'm curious about how all of a sudden a production line making a round like the 9mm which is NOT roll crimped would, or even could, all of a sudden start roll crimping them. Anybody?

Rick C

Based on my experience as a maintenance tech...If I were to take the photos at face value, the only thing I can think of is that somewhere/somehow, there were some incorrect tooling parts that got installed while servicing that particular aspect of the 9MM production line.

In other words, factory ammo is not produced with the same type of equipment that you and I use...meaning that in contrast to our cartridge-specific push-pull/in and out type of stationary friction-dies, factory ammo use's a lot of squash and roller type of forming...which to me means that in order to produce a roll crimp, one must first install the specific tooling which produces a roll crimp as a part of the process, which as has been suggested, really doesn't belong on a 9MM production line to start with.

That, and unlike say, the 32ACP or 38ACP/38 Super...9MM Luger bullets aint got no crimp grove. That in itself should have been another clue for the operators working the line on that particular day...as-in "Hey Jim-Bob, how come we're roll crimping bullets that aint got a crimp groove?" :lol: :lol: :lol: .

But hey, that is just a guess...and your's is as good as mine :wink: .

DGW

 

[Cheesewhiz]

It's pretty easy to make a roll like crimp with a taper die, all you have to do is adjust it down way past a proper setting or by elevating the case upwards so it gets further into the die. The only high speed loading machine I ever saw was one that had a belt chain that carried the rounds thru the machine and the dies came down at index points. It was an old machine on its way to Brazil and not running at the time.

By the way, those crappy rounds were not the first time I ever saw WWB with rolled like crimps I saw a box like that in 2009 and every round was like that.

 

[WAYNO]

I just today opened a previously unopened box of WWB just to see what was in the grab bag.