Having trouble understanding crimping die

[.Dirty-.Thirty]

I recieved my first pistol dies yesterday, Lee .38spec/.357mag dies for my Ruger Blackhawk. I have loaded a dozen rounds of 1.595 overall length but can't seem to figure out how "if needed?" to get a heavier roll crimp. I started by screwing in the die until it met the raised ram with the shellholder on it, I then back the dies out 3 turns and a additional 1 and 3/4 turn to meet requirements for .357 mag as says the paper with the dies. My overall length is correct but I don't see a roll crimp on my loaded rounds. I back the lock nut off and screw in the die more but I see no results except for my overall length needs seated back out farther. Any advice for a handgun cartridge reloading greenhorn?

 

[Sagebrush Burns]

Your procedure sets the oal correctly but does not actually address crimping. Once you have set the oal as you did, the next step is to back out the bullet seater so that it no longer makes contact and then screw the die in until it contacts the shell holder. Now run the cartridge with the seated uncrimped bullet in and you should get a crimp. For a stronger crimp it may be necessary to seat the die so that it is "over center". Once you establish your crimp, with the finished cartridge in the die, screw the bullet seater back in so that it makes contact. After this you should be able to seat and crimp with the same stroke.

 

[GP100man]

I put an empty case up , screw die over the case until it touches then back off 1 turn .

I now insert case with powder/boolit & set my boolit depth to the crimp groove or cannelure for jacketd (which I have`nt done in many trs.) you can opt to seat all then crimp .

Then raise the seater punch & raise loaded ,uncrimped case up & screwing die down until it touches ,+ 1/4 turn down until desired crimp is achived. After the desired crimp is achived raise the round up & run the seater to the nose to do both in 1 step.

If I remember correctly the soft nosed jacketed stuff I seat/crimp seperately because doing both at the same time would bruise the soft lead & also cause inconsistent seating to the cannelures.

PS. always crimp enuff to hold the boolit ! but liter boolits with faster powders need less than a heavier boolit with slower powders, also the heavy crimp for the heavies will help the slower powders burn more consistently.

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

Use GP100man's method for adjusting. Be sure to back your seater way out when adjusting for crimp.

Have you trimmed your cases to a common length? If you haven't, your crimps may end up inconsistent. You might get some buckled cases and some rounds with barely any crimp. If you get a case that ends up buckled, that one has waaaay less tension holding the bullet and it's gonna shoot different than the rest.

Go easy on the lever when seating.crimping. If you get one that seems to need a lot more force, lower the ram and look at it. It's probably longer than the one you set the dies with. Nudge it with baby steps until you get a crimp on it.

Trimming is a pain, but for revolver brass, it's a once-in-a-lifetime of the case event. I do mine watching a movie or ball game.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Are you using the 3 die set or the 4 die set with a separate crimp die?

 

[.Dirty-.Thirty]

Thanks for all the advice! I am now roll crimping! I am loading as my first handgun rounds the 158gr plated Ranier bullets, so going easy on the crimp

Jimbo I am using a 3 die set with the crimp in the seating die.

 

[sourdough44]

As posted above you need a case on the shell holder to set up & adjust any crimp you may want. It's fairly simple but you have to follow instructions closely.

I usually crimp separately with a Lee factory crimp die. I just completed some 38 spcl & 357 rounds, the FCD performed superbly.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

I'll go the other route, just for the sake of discussion.

I use a three-die set in a Rockchucker.

After sizing/priming/flaring/charging the cases, I put the seat/crimp die just barely into the press, with the seating plug screwed pretty far down into the die. I put a bullet into a charged case and place it in the shell holder. I run the ram all the way to the top of the stroke and leave it there whle I carefully screw the seating die down until I feel the seating plug contact the bullet. Then it's just a matter of screwing the die in a little at a time, checking as I go, until I get the seated depth I'm after. I lock the die in that location and proceed to insert and seat all the bullets in that batch.

That done, I pull the seating plug out of the die, place a bulleted round in the shell holder and run the ram once again to the top. I unlock the die and screw it in until I feel the crimp shoulder contact the case. I then screw the die in a little at a time, checking as I go, until I get the crimp I'm after, then lock the die in that position and proceed to crimp the rest of the batch. I observe/check each round as I go to make sure I'm happy with the crimps.

This reads like it's a lotta work, but it really isn't. It only takes a moment or two to adjust the seating and crimping functions, and you get to adjust the seating and crimping to actual results as opposed to attempting to pre-adjust seating and crimping simultaneously. Yes, you handle each cartridge one more time in the process, but I'm not in a hurry, nor do I reload more than 100 rounds at a time.

I've been doing it this way for nearly fifty years and it works for me. JMHO YMMV

:mrgreen:

 

[GP100man]

Thanks for your statement on case length Iron Mike Golf !! so busy typing the steps I fergot to mention for consistent crimps case length is critical especially on roll crimping.

Dirty-30 ,it`s a good idea to go lite on da crimp ,when I tried the plated stuff I crimped as usual & cut the plating ,then as I went up in pressure I started gettin WILD patterns !!

I was blowing the cores from the plating , I finally stopped when I found the "jacket" left in the bore, never shot another .

PS: I would like to see a pic of a FCD round ??

GP

 

[Ale-8(1)]

The instructions I have seen for the plated bullets usually recommend only a taper crimp or no crimp . . . just removal of the flare. Definitely not a roll crimp because of the exact thing you relate, cutting the plating and separation.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Here is a Rainier 44mag with a slight roll crimp put on with the Lee FCD and a pulled bullet. Note the crimp is almost non-existent.

 

[GP100man]

Great pics Jimbo !!!! & Thanks for the speedy response !!

1 more ?? Does or can the FCD resize soft lead boolits

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Great pics Jimbo !!!! & Thanks for the speedy response !!

1 more ?? Does or can the FCD resize soft lead boolits

If you have a slightly oversized lead bullet loaded into the case, the carbide ring on the mouth of the Lee FCD die will size the case and the bullet down to size. Some folks complain that their lead bullets are then too small for their gun's throats. I haven't noticed this with the 44mag but I can see how it could be a problem especially in 45colt. Some folks have removed the carbide ring from the mouth of the FCD to stop the problem of sizing down the lead bullets.

Now if you are asking can large lead bullets be automatically sized in the crimp process, I wouldn't substitute a FCD for a real lead bullet lube/sizer that does it's job before seating the bullet into the case.

 

[Lost Sheep]

.Dirty-.Thirty, thanks for asking our advice.

First, if you want to seat and crimp separately, you don't need the Lee Factory Crimp die (or any of the other crimp-only dies from other manufacturers). It is easier to adjust the dies to do the steps separately, but you can accomplish the tasks simultaneously easily enough.

I suggest using dummy rounds to enable you to re-set your dies quickly and easily. Once you have your dies set properly, you can make a dummy round (no powder, no primer) with a bullet and crimp set properly. Then, you can adjust the die body to meet the crimp and the seating plug to meet the bullet nose by feel on the dummy round very quickly. Make a different dummy round for each bullet nose shape and OAL (Cartridge OverAll Length, also known as COAL and COL).

If you do decide you want a 4-Die set (the 4th die is the FCD, Factory Crimp Die) you don't have to buy an entire set. Just add the 4th die and adjust your 3rd die (seat-crimp die) so no crimp is applied when seating.

Be aware that the Lee FCD (unlike other manufacturers' crimp dies) performs two functions. Crimping and post-sizing. (Post-sizing is sizing the completed round after the crimp it applied.) Its sole purpose is to ensure a finished round will chamber easily. The post-sizing is controversial, as it is sometimes helpful, sometimes unnecessary, sometimes detrimental and, worst of all, sometimes thought to be used to cover up sloppy loading practices. Sometimes an oversized or slightly out-of-round bullet will bulge the case to the point where the round will not fit in the chamber. The FCD fixes that. But it does not "cure" whatever the cause was.

In any event, the post-sizing ring can be removed (or enlarged). Removal is irreversible, as even if the ring does not break when you knock it out, getting it back in is difficult or impossible. Lee Precision will enlarge the inside to the ring to your specifications for $30 when you order a FCD.

Great pics Jimbo !!!! & Thanks for the speedy response !!

1 more ?? Does or can the FCD resize soft lead boolits

If you have a slightly oversized lead bullet loaded into the case, the carbide ring on the mouth of the Lee FCD die will size the case and the bullet down to size. Some folks complain that their lead bullets are then too small for their gun's throats. I haven't noticed this with the 44mag but I can see how it could be a problem especially in 45colt. Some folks have removed the carbide ring from the mouth of the FCD to stop the problem of sizing down the lead bullets.

Now if you are asking can large lead bullets be automatically sized in the crimp process, I wouldn't substitute a FCD for a real lead bullet lube/sizer that does it's job before seating the bullet into the case.

For a really nice discussion of the function of crimp vs neck tension with regard to accuracy, see post #3 in this thread

http://rugerforum.net/reloading/65863-lee-fcd-pistol-not-rifle-virtue-vice.html

Also, pay particular attention to the second-to-last paragraph in that post.

See also these threads. There are some useful posts in all of them.

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=168362&p=1694145

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=691050

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509934

Good luck. Your questions demonstrate that you have the observation, caution, curiosity and safety consciousness to enjoy handloading for a long, long time.

 

[GP100man]

Thanks for the links Lost Sheep ,I really like the idea of not having to pay as close attention to case length , but everything is working too good as it is to spend $$ on the FCD & it may cause more problems with it`s ability to size soft lead down.

I`ve lapped my Lyman 358 sizer to 3585 & when I use a harder alloy(12-14bhn) they mostly spring back to 359 & all is happy !!

I`ve just purchased a power adapter for my rcbs pro trimmer so trimmin goes a bit easier now .

I still grab the Lee trimmer & a cordless drill for short runs at brass, I chamfer while I got it spinnin.

Used to put the Lee on a small drill press ,but my fingers start hurtin & cases start spinnin, no fun !

GP

 

[Lost Sheep]

Thanks for the links Lost Sheep ,I really like the idea of not having to pay as close attention to case length , but everything is working too good as it is to spend $$ on the FCD & it may cause more problems with it`s ability to size soft lead down.

You're welcome, GP.

If you find a used tool-steel die set it would be pretty cheap to buy just for the seat-crimp die solely for its seating function (even if the crimping shoulder is not good) and leave your seat-crimp die to do your crimping with the seating stem out.

Happy new year,

Lost Sheep