Handgun Bear Calibers

[Jeff41Mag]

Will the 41 Mag work effectively for grizzly: 265 grain flatnose cast lead bullets at 1400 plus fps. What other calibers and bullet weights work for grizzly? Will the 41 Mag with 265 gr at 1400 fps work for elk/moose/buffalo if not for grizzly?

 

[Quarterbore]

I consider the 41 Mag to be where a good deer handgun roun starts. Sure, with proper bullets it can penetrate well enough to break bone and certainly kill BUT if you are serious about hunting these critters then I think your minimums need to start at heavy loaded 44 Mag or 45 Colts and even then you will be lite on performance.

Something in the 454 Casull range out of a full length barrel is what I would want to use as my personal minimum if I were seriously hunting these critters you list.

Now, if you have a guide with a serious rifle or shotgun with slugs as a backup then sure you can make do with less gun. Still, a bigger slug sounds like what I want!

 

[Lee Martin]

If I were going after grizzly I'd go 45 Colt or larger. That said, I gotta think 41 Mag with 265's @ 1,400 fps would suffice. BTW, what load and gun are you using to get those speeds? Sounds pretty hot.

 

[Hugh]

Seeing as how grizzlies are protected, I don't really believe most folks would be hunting them. That said, any shooting of a grizzly would be defensive in nature. When a bear is coming toward you he/she is probably walking or running on all four feet. Likewise if it is perpendicular to you.

The shooter's presence of mind is especially critical in the coming toward you situation. The bear's head is large and for a "very calm" shooter a good target, actually it probably would be pretty close to the center of a head on animal. I'd say good penetrating bullet of 265 grains would be pretty effective. Perpendicular to the shooter I'd suggest a head or heart area shot with the same type of bullet.

But then I'd probably not be all that calm under either of those situations. The reason being, with a head on shot it's me or the bear. With a perpendicular shot it's either somebody else's life or the bear.

 

[BearBio]

I would not feel any more undergunned, assuming hardcast lead, with that 41 load. I carried a 41 as a sidearm while guiding on pigs. My wife carries one here (we do have grizzlies, even if scarce).

That being said, I carry a 45 Colt, 3oo or 325 hardcast @ 1250-1300 fps. for woodswork.

However, I prefer spray over a handgun. Just my (professional) opinion based on one bear charge, 2 dozen+ grizzly sightings, and 10 years in grizzly country. Oh, and conversations with LE and Refuge personnel here and in Alaska. Take it for what you feel it is worth.

 

[5of7]

There is no handgun cartridge that is a "good" Grizzly Bear load......period.

What a handgun will do for you if you are attacked by a Griz, is that MAYBE you will be able to kill the bear before the bear kills you........but the odds are not that good.

IMO. :shock:

 

[Short Barrel]

I agree with Quarterbore and Lee Martin.The .41 is a great gun.It will crack a grizzlies skull if you are lucky enough to hit it but if I were serious enough to hunt those animals mentioned,I would be serious enough to get and work into more gun.I've killed elk and moose with heavy .45 Colt loads and they are stouter built than most grizzlies.

Grizzlies are only protected in the lower 48.Hundreds are hunted and taken in Canada and Alaska every Spring and Fall,as well as those shot in self defense throughout there range.Many have been stopped by handguns.A bowhunter stopped a grizzly here,a couple weeks ago with a handgun.I haven't heard the caliber yet but the most common carried here is the .44 mag.

If I were serious about hunting that game,I would prefer the .475 or .500 Linebaugh though the .454 would be good also.I like some frontal diameter and heavy weight for penetration.Anyone who can hunt all those animals can afford a new handgun.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

There is no handgun cartridge that is a "good" Grizzly Bear load......period.

What a handgun will do for you if you are attacked by a Griz, is that MAYBE you will be able to kill the bear before the bear kills you........but the odds are not that good.

IMO. :shock:

+1 .....Grizzly = 45-70 Rifle. 8) 8)

...Jimbo

 

[CraigC]

There is no handgun cartridge that is a "good" Grizzly Bear load......period.

I think if Ross Seyfried's .45Colt can penetrate several feet of Cape buffalo, or if Larry Kelly can take the Big Five with a .44Mag, a good sixgun load should do fine on an 800lb bear. :roll:

 

[Lee Martin]

I've not hunted grizzly, but I gotta think it comes down to whether you have time to place the shot. As noted, if you're surprised by one you may not have time to react....be it with a handgun or a rifle.

Now if you have time to aim, that's a different story. I've become pretty good with this 475 Linebaugh and I'm confident a 420 WFN in the right spot would do the job.

As big as grizzlys are, they have bone, flesh, vital organs, and bleed like any other animal. You just need enough gun and the ability to hit.

 

[buckeyeshooter]

I figure you got 1 shot--- maybe. If I am limited to a handgun, it would be my 6 1/2 inch S & W 500 with a hot loaded 440 grain hardcast. I'd prefer a 458WM in a rifle for an angry charging bear.

 

[Jeff41Mag]

Lee,

That looks like a Bisley Super Blackhawk converted to .475 Linebaugh. Did Linebaugh do the conversion, or rather, who did the work on that fine peice?

Jeff

P.S. I should have noted, I own two Super BH Hunters, one in hand, one on order, both in 41Mag. They are distributor exclusives through Davidson's, and maybe 27 are left if anybody wants one. They come stainless, non-fluted cylinder, and a solid rib with cut-outs for a scope. They also come with the rings, and black laminate grips. So the .41 will be my primary hunting pistol, and I was wondering if it was worth it to carry when in brown/grizzly country as a back up. I'd like to get an FA in .475 LB or .500 WE, but have not shot either of those so I don't know about the recoil.

So I third handgun might be in order for optimum performance, or it seems the .41 heavily loaded might work if I can swing the 7.5 inch barrel fast enough in an emergency.

I am considering as a 3rd gun the Std Redhawk in 45 Colt with hot loads, or a big bore .475LB or .500WE. What do you guys think?

I don't actively hunt grizzlies. It would be a packing gun/defense gun.

Thanks.

Jeff

 

[Lee Martin]

Lee,

That looks like a Bisley Super Blackhawk converted to .475 Linebaugh. Did Linebaugh do the conversion, or rather, who did the work on that fine peice?

Thanks Jeff. I actually did the conversion myself.

 

[Don Lovel]

I do not ever want to have to field dress any animal that it takes a round as powerful as 420gr 475 Linebaugh to stop

Way more stinky work than I want to do

 

[flatgate]

The only Field Dressing you'll need to do if you survive a Griz attack with the help of your handgun will be changing into some "fresh huggies"......

JMHO,

flatgate

PS Sure, I carry a .45 cal., 335 gr. hardcast at 1575 fps in my "bear gun". I sure hope I never need to use it or the Pepper Spray on my belt.

 

[Ultrarunner]

If I get it in time, I'll be carrying my Redhawk 44 in Alaska this summer. Otherwise I'll deal with the extra weight and size and go with the 454 Super which a few dealers have in stock locally. Hiking with a big gun is probably not necessary, but I wouldn't skimp on homeowners insurance either...

 

[98Redline]

Caliber aside the other part of the question is what are you intending on doing? Hunting or Self Defense?.....looks like I missed your last post...SD it is

For a hunting situation, you may be able to use the .41 if you have someone backing you up with something bigger. As others have said time and time before, shot placement is crucial.

If for SD then I would have to agree with the rest on here....bigger is better. Add on top of that I would prefer a double action to a single.

If that big bad grizz decides that I am to be the main course tonight, I don't want to have to worry about thumbing back the hammer on the first or any of the next five follow ups.

 

[5of7]

There is no handgun cartridge that is a "good" Grizzly Bear load......period.

I think if Ross Seyfried's .45Colt can penetrate several feet of Cape buffalo, or if Larry Kelly can take the Big Five with a .44Mag, a good sixgun load should do fine on an 800lb bear. :roll:

The post by 98redline directly above this one makes a very good point. :roll:

 

[dougader]

I've spoken with 3 different guides in Alaska and they differ with their opinions. One says 12 gauge with Brenneke slugs, another says any old 357 mag will do and the last says anything that can break a shoulder and physically put 'im down.

2 say headshot is the only way to stop a charging grizz, the other says bunk, you'll never hit that head when its coming at you like a train and bobbing from side to side; it's an impossible target... what you aim at is the front point of the shoulder. You break his shoulder, his nose piles up in the dirt. He gets up, you hit the other shoulder. Then its over and you might as well take the 3rd shot to his head or heart.

I'm surprised the guys aren't chiming in about the latest Buffalo Bore ammo in 32 H&R mag, or the 9mm, 40 S&W and such.

The first year I fished in Alaska, we just had one 44 mag between us. The next time I took a Bowen tuned SRH 454. The last time it was a 5.5" Riger Redhawk in 45 Colt. Haven't been back in too long now. Had a Ruger Alaskan in 454 but sold it; too darn short for my taste. If I went up now I'd take a 5.5" Bisley in 45 Colt. But who knows...

I would say 44 mag/45Colt at the low end. Then again, there really isn't that much difference between the 41 mag, 44 mag... what, 0.019"?

I am happiest when we don't even see any bears.

 

[Three44s]

A good friend of mine just acquired a SRH six shot in .480 Ruger. It comes with brass, bullets and dies.

If he becomes satisfied that it's too much gun for himself, he's coming at me for a possible trade for one of my lesser revolvers.

It could prove interesting!


I have two .41's and some .44s.

I shoot the OP's bullet, the 265 gr. LFN gc in both of my .41's.

Many say the .41 offers less recoil ......... and I agree. BUT not when you throw that 265 grainer out there at a good pace.

Any critter hit with that bullet vs. a similarly constructed slug from a .44 at the same location with a similar metplat will NOT be able to discrern a difference.

When you move from the lower "40's" to the upper .40's .... Ie. the .480 and up .......... you have made significant progress (the .454 and .460 are closer to the bigger bored guns so long as the bullet integrity is up to the task)

I like what dougader posted:

"2 say headshot is the only way to stop a charging grizz, the other says bunk, you'll never hit that head when its coming at you like a train and bobbing from side to side; it's an impossible target... what you aim at is the front point of the shoulder. You break his shoulder, his nose piles up in the dirt. He gets up, you hit the other shoulder. Then its over and you might as well take the 3rd shot to his head or heart. "


I posted something like that a few years ago on this board and two members unleashed upon me the fury of hell ........

............ you'd thought thaa I was some kind of "baby killer" or something!!!

I'll stand on what I posted then .......... and what dougader was told by one of those Guides as pretty accurate ............. that being that to brain a charging bear .... at some distance where spit has "tradjectory" ............ is folley!

The shoulder is a BETTER target ........... and people that REALLY have skin in these games call it BREAKING DOWN the bear.

Once you have broken it down ........... you may ............ "may" get a better opportunity to get a CNS hit such as the skull that's worth beans.

Grizzly, Brownie or Black ........... it's going to be a rough equivalent of sheer luck either way .......... IF GOD wants you to live and you hold up your end of the bargain and MURPHY has the day off ....... you might just luck out.

If the gun in my hand was a .41 when something bad like this thread addresses ........ I would not lose much time regretting not having a better one. It would have the right round if I ventured into potential harms way and I'd just try to do my part ........ the rest would be decided for me.

Good stout SA's may be the ticket for some ......... I staked out my preference for DA's of stiff construction right from the start for such a circumstance.

Three 44s

 

[tek4260]

Dang I am outta popcorn...

 

[BearBio]

I was charged once by a black bear while doing research. Trust me==you will not have time for more than one shot, unless the gun is in your hand already! Suckas are fast!!! You won't have time to draw or take a gun off your shoulder, unless you see him coming from a distance. I use single actions because I don't want to start "machine-gunning" and spraying bullets. If I only have one shot, I'll try not to waste it. Also, I can load stiffer rounds into my Vaquero or Blackhawk than a DA.

The angle of a bear's skull, especially while charging will likely preclude a forehead shot, so your only real shot would be into the nasal cavity. A shotgun slug would likely stun him long enough for a second shot. I like the idea of a shotgun slug (or VERY large pistol slug) into the shoulder, followed up with a second (and third and likely a fourth). My last trip to Alaska, I called one of our Refuge guys for advice==his staff klled 28 bears that year in defense of life or property. They use the 2 3/4 Brenneke Magnum slugs.

Disclaimer: The only bear I have ever actually shot was with a tranquilizer gun. But I was backed up with a 12 gauge.

 

[COR]

"Bear handgun"... Haven't we had this discussion once or twice before? :roll:

Most of us would be lucky to encounter a Grizzly in the wild and for some even black bear are rare...

I hunt black bear with a 41, 44 and 45. I've also seen a black bear move up close an personal and you better have that gun already in your hand if you expect to defend yourself with a handgun. Very few folks are even close to that fast...

 

[5of7]

This talk of shotgun slugs for defense against Grizzly bears prompted me to calculate the SD of a 12 ga. shotgun shug.

I found out that even a 1-1/2 oz 12 ga slug has a SD of .176....essentially the same as a 158 grain .357 diameter bullet.

The more common 1 oz slugs come out at .117, about the same as a 40 grain 22 long rifle bullet.

Why would anyone think that a 12 ga. slug would offer up enough penetration to reach the vitals of a griz?

 

[CraigC]

This talk of shotgun slugs for defense against Grizzly bears prompted me to calculate the SD of a 12 ga. shotgun shug.

I found out that even a 1-1/2 oz 12 ga slug has a SD of .176....essentially the same as a 158 grain .357 diameter bullet.

The more common 1 oz slugs come out at .117, about the same as a 40 grain 22 long rifle bullet.

Why would anyone think that a 12 ga. slug would offer up enough penetration to reach the vitals of a griz?

I've been trying to figure this out myself. Shotgun slugs have a pitiful sectional density. Even the massive Dixie Terminator slugs have an SD only equal to a 250gr .44 bullet. Yet for whatever reason, people have this silly perception that shotgun slugs are the hammer of Thor and destroy all in their path. Regardless of what we 'know' about big bores, heavy bullets and terminal ballistics. I'm determined to prove it as pure myth.

I came up with a ballistics chart in the form of an Excel spreadsheet and it's very interesting how slugs compare to big bore revolvers and 'real' stopping cartridges. Not favorably. Here's an excerpt:


Cartridge/Load/ Dia./ Wt./ SD
12ga 1oz Foster 0.730 438 0.117
12ga 1 1/8oz 0.730 492 0.132
12ga 1 3/8" Brenneke 0.730 602 0.161
12ga Dixie Terminator 730gr 0.730 730 0.196
12ga Dixie Terminator 870gr 0.730 870 0.233
.44Mag 0.430 330 0.255
.44Mag 0.430 355 0.274
.45Colt 0.452 335 0.234
.45Colt 0.452 360 0.252
.475/.480 0.476 355 0.224
.475/.480 0.476 400 0.252
.475/.480 0.476 430 0.271
.500 Linebaugh 0.512 435 0.237
.500 Linebaugh 0.512 450 0.245
.500 Linebaugh 0.512 500 0.272
.375H&H 0.375 300 0.305
.444Marlin 0.430 405 0.313
.405WCF / .450-.400 0.411 400 0.338
.45/70 0.458 405 0.276
.45/70 0.458 500 0.341
.45/70 0.458 540 0.368

 

[CraigC]

It's worthy of note that the proven penetrators of the sixgun world have SD's in the .250-.270 range. For a 12ga slug to meet that requirement, it would have to weigh over 1000gr. To match that of a 500gr .458, it would have to weigh 1272gr.

 

[GMan351]

What's "SD"?

 

[CraigC]

Sectional density = the ratio of weight to diameter.

 

[Tommy Kelly]

This is my thoughts on this matter. The best handgun is one you shoot well and have with you at the time. I have a friend that bear hunts and this is what he told me. He said that a bear's heart beats so slow that you could completely destroy it's heart and that it could run a 100 yards and kill you before dying. He said that the proper way to kill a bear was to break him down then kill him. It sounds unreal to me but he has hunted bear several times and killed quite a impressive collection of bears. He has a 7ft tall grizzly with a full body mount that is super impressive looking. My theory is I had rather have a good hit with a 45 colt rather than a bad hit with a 500 magnum. This is totally unrelated but I have killed over 100 deer in my life most all were 1 shot kills with all sizes of guns from big magnums down but I killed 85 of the deer with a 22 magnum. It's not enough gun for deer hunting but worked everytime for me on deer. Do I reccomend it for deer hunting no. It will work but takes a great bullet placement to do the job. I have quite a few big super magnum deer rifles that are overkill for our deer but I usually hunt with a little youth model 308 remington that I put a full sized stock on to get more length. The last 5 deer I've killed I used it and head shot all 5. The gun is short and handles great in the woods and in a stand being shorter and I just really like the gun.

 

[Quarterbore]

Sectional density = the ratio of weight to diameter.

True, and remember that a mag 12-gauge slug load has 4,000 ft/lbs of energy behind that hunk of metal flying through the air! Sure, it may not penetrate like a 460 Weatherby magnum but it sure as hell will break bone and penetrate deep enough to get to vitals!