Handguns in Defense Against Bears by Caliber - .357 Mag (& .45 ACP)

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Paul B

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I have only killed on Black Bear with a handgun. Gun was an S&W .38 SPL. Ourdoorsman, the .38 on a 44 frame (N frame) Load was a hot +P+ level handload years before +P+ was the gleam on some ammo maker's eye. Two quick shots and one dear bear. Labor Day weekene 1959.
Paul B.
 
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jspick

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Lets face it when goevernments pick a service cart. it isn't because it is the best choice. Generally it is because it is the best deal. At least they didn't pick the 9mm!!!
 

BearBiologist

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Lets face it when goevernments pick a service cart. it isn't because it is the best choice. Generally it is because it is the best deal. At least they didn't pick the 9mm!!!
If you are referring to the Sirius Patrol, the Glock 20 in 10mm was chosen by the non-coms and officers as their weapon of choice for polar bear defense. They chose the modified 1917 Enfield for musk oxen. FYI: These guys sometimes see polar bears daily!

From an American Rifleman article:

"Loaded For Bear—And Musk Ox: 10 mm Glocks Of The Danish Sirius Dog Sled Patrol
If you were expecting to encounter the largest land carnivore in the world, what would your sidearm of choice be? For members of Denmark's Sirius Dog Sled Patrol the answer is the 10 mm Glock 20. Greenland is a country within the Kingdom of Denmark, and the Danish military is responsible for providing for its defense. The Sirius Patrol (their name in Danish is "Slædepatruljen Sirius") is a unit of the Danish navy that operates in the uninhabited area of northeast Greenland. Originating from a group of volunteers formed during World War II that fought off German incursions into Greenland, the modern Sirius Patrol asserts Danish sovereignty along nearly 9,000 miles of coastline.

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Arctic Greenland is one of the most physically demanding environments in the world, with 24-hour darkness and temperatures that reach 50° F below zero in the winter. Those dangers also include the native wildlife. The two largest animals in Greenland, the musk ox and the polar bear, are often encountered by the Sirius patrollers. The polar bear is an alpha predator whose adult males can reach a length of 10 ft. and weigh up to 1,500 lbs. The musk ox is about half the weight of an American bison, but its head is capped with a pair of Cape buffalo-like horns.

The Glock 20 was adopted by the Sirius Patrol around 2000 as a replacement for the 9 mm Luger m/49, the Danish designation for the country's SIG P210 service pistol, after it experienced problems using the 9 mm Luger cartridge against large mammals. Although 10 mm Auto is not a common chambering in Europe, ammunition is sourced from Serbian manufacturer Prvi Partizan. Issued ammunition features a jacketed flat-point bullet.

The Glock 20 is paired with another gun unique for a 21st century elite military force. The rifle the Sirius Patrol carries is the century-old Pattern 1917 Enfield, known in Danish service as the Gevær M/53 (17), in .30-'06 Sprg. These rifles, along with M1 Garands, were sent to Denmark as part of NATO Cold War armament cooperation. The rugged bolt-action guarantees function in Artic conditions, and the .30-'06 Sprg. cartridge is more powerful than the 5.56x45 mm NATO Karabin M/96 (a version of the Canadian C8 M16 variant) that Danish forces currently issue. Sirius members carry their Glock 20s constantly, in a Safariland Universal Military holster and attached to the belt by lanyard. It is always on their side when operating at their Daneborg headquarters and is the backup to their Enfield rifles while on patrol. As an arm of last resort, the 10 mm Glock has proved successful in several close-range encounters with both polar bear and musk ox, most involving multiple rounds fired rapidly at extremely close range.

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New Sirius recruits are given 28 hours of basic pistol training, followed by CQB and night-shooting courses in which they will fire a total of 3,000 to 4,000 rounds. The only complaint the Sirius patrol has with its Glock pistols is adapting to its trigger after using the "match-grade" single-action P210.

Since the adoption of the Glock, the Danish military has considered alternatives, including .357 Mag. and .44 Mag. revolvers that were tested by firing them into ballistic gelatin covered in polar bear hide. The result was that the capacity and shootability of the 10 mm Glock won out over the revolvers—the Danes have discovered what many in the civilian world also know. For magnum performance from a service-size, semi-automatic handgun, the 10 mm is hard to beat."
 

jspick

Bearcat
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If you are riding in the back country and carrying a 357 mag, and you ride up on a Grizzly bear, You'll immediately wish you had a bigger gun. At least that was my experience.

I was in my pickup driving a old logging road looking for moose. I drew a tag!! I came around a corner and there in the middle of the road was a big griz. All of a sudden my pickup felt very useless for safety. YOU ARE SO RIGHT!!
 

vlavalle

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If you are riding in the back country and carrying a 357 mag, and you ride up on a Grizzly bear, You'll immediately wish you had a bigger gun. At least that was my experience.
In general, I would agree with you, but you probably do not know how powerful a .357 can get. But even the most powerful (907 ft. lbs. of ME by PPU), which people do not normally shoot, may not be enough. A .44 Mag max's out at 1,533 ft. lbs. and the .45 Colt max's out at 1,344 ft. lbs. (only to be shot in non flattop Rugers) Both of these are far more powerful than the .357 Mag, and they are only slightly bigger. I have both, the Ruger .357 Bkackhawk, and a Ruger .45 Colt Blackhawk.

So, if you are carrying a .357 Mag revolver in bear country, make sure that you have loaded it with VERY hot rounds! Buffalo Bore makes a very hot .357 Mag round which produces 899 ft. lbs. And if anyone who is reading this, the 10mm max's out at 738 ft. lbs. (Grizzly & Buffalo Bore).
 
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In general, I would agree with you, but you probably do not know how powerful a .357 can get. But even the most powerful (907 ft. lbs. of ME by PPU), which people do not normally shoot, may not be enough. A .44 Mag max's out at 1,533 ft. lbs. and the .45 Colt max's out at 1,344 ft. lbs. (only to be shot in non flattop Rugers) Both of these are far more powerful than the .357 Mag, and they are only slightly bigger. I have both, the Ruger .357 Bkackhawk, and a Ruger .45 Colt Blackhawk.

So, if you are carrying a .357 Mag revolver in bear country, make sure that you have loaded it with VERY hot rounds! Buffalo Bore makes a very hot .357 Mag round which produces 899 ft. lbs. And if anyone who is reading this, the 10mm max's out at 738 ft. lbs. (Grizzly & Buffalo Bore).
Numbers aren't everything
 

vlavalle

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Numbers aren't everything
Ignoring real hard facts so you can justify your own position and/or preference? Of course, I did not go into bullet type, which can make a very big difference in take down impact, as well as how well you can handle whatever firearm you are using, and whether you can hit the target you are aiming at. The last thing with a bear attacking you is how well you can handle the adrenaline and excitement at that moment, and all in a very short period of time!
 

jspick

Bearcat
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This is what a bear charging you will do to your adrenaline levels. 5 feet, 45 acp. Not my choice but it worked!
 

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I've only had one bear charge, at close range, and it was very close. About 7' in lots of brush, chasing him in the Trinity Alps , with dogs. He was backed up under a rocky outcropping, with dogs (3) on both sides. Pretty close to pandemonium when I caught up and broke thru the brush into the opening. "Convict" was a bada$$ Plott hound, I would follow him anywhere! I was carrying a Marlin lever gun in 44 mag, as I was a kid too young to carry or own a handgun. It seemed like slo-mo, as I looked into those eyes, watching them turn a glowing red, as I shouldered and thumbed the lever of the Marlin. Front sight just above the nose. Pop. I side stepped, as the 337 pound ( gutted and packed out in pieces) chocolate bear landed on my just previous foot prints. A bit of excitement to start my morning. That lever was shooting sierras Silhouette bullets, which penetrated wonderfully. My only rifle shot on bears. Ever since then, I have carried and used large caliber revolvers, with powerful solids. I also learned about the power of a good head shot, which I've used a lot on hogs, very close, using the Sierra 8830, 300 grain .45 caliber bullet.
 

NikA

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But even the most powerful (907 ft. lbs. of ME by PPU), which people do not normally shoot, may not be enough.
I've told you this before, and I'll do it again: the numbers you collect from manufacturers are largely useless without some context for how they were collected. Did some searching and PPU apparently uses a 10 inch test barrel for their .357 loads. BBTI shows Federal 158gr loadings in the 1630 fps range for a 10 inch Contender barrel, i.e., the PPU loading is pretty much a standard .357 load.

You can trumpet the numbers you collect inconsistently from the internet all you want, until you point to some real world testing or collect the underlying context and how it relates to the internal ballistics of the data, it's not going to mean a whole lot.
 

BearBiologist

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This is what a bear charging you will do to your adrenaline levels. 5 feet, 45 acp. Not my choice but it worked!
I've seen 44 magnums with the same bullet placement fail to stop medium (100-175 lb.) wild pigs! You must have had a FMJ or VERY stoutly constructed JHP! I have, somewhere, a JHP taken from the off side of a good-sized boar that looks unfired except for the rifling and the skin and hair inside the bullet cavity. One reason I started carrying a Browning HP with FMJs until I started handloading hard cast bullets in the 45 Colt and 41 mag. Another good bullet was the "silhouette" bullet in 41 mag. TECHNICALLY, a soft point as required by California law:

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Bigbore5

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Due to their shape and bone density, bullets will often skip on the skull of a bear or pig. I much prefer a bullet with a sharp corner on the transition from meplat to ogive with a wide meplat of 80-90% when following the dogs because of the close range and 70-80% when the range is expected to possibly exceed 40yds.
 

Bigbore5

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I've told you this before, and I'll do it again: the numbers you collect from manufacturers are largely useless without some context for how they were collected. Did some searching and PPU apparently uses a 10 inch test barrel for their .357 loads. BBTI shows Federal 158gr loadings in the 1630 fps range for a 10 inch Contender barrel, i.e., the PPU loading is pretty much a standard .357 load.

You can trumpet the numbers you collect inconsistently from the internet all you want, until you point to some real world testing or collect the underlying context and how it relates to the internal ballistics of the data, it's not going to mean a whole lot.
I usually find a bullet I think will be good, develope an accurate load with acceptable velocity, then go kill things with it. David Bradshaw preaches that accuracy is decided on the firing line. Bigbore5 preaches bullet and cartridge effectiveness is decided only on meat and bones.

Both the 10mm and 357mag work. The 357mag just works better. The 41mag and the 35max are about the same. 44mag and 45Colt are close enough to not matter. 45 Ruger only and 454 are about the same and better than the 44mag. 475/480 are better yet and I have seen no difference between them on game. 500JRH and Linebaugh are pretty even and the best on any big game. The 500 S&W is no better than the shorter 500's, but is not a truly packable gun, thus only adds weight and recoil with no real performance advantage. And yes I have used them all not only on bears, but on game in Africa. The 475 and 500's on Cape Buffalo, Hippos, and large plains game. But several head of plains game have been taken with a 357mag up to 700+ pounds. Properly loaded, it just worked as long as I do my part
 

Paul B

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NikA said, "Did some searching and PPU apparently uses a 10 inch test barrel for their .357 loads. BBTI shows Federal 158gr loadings in the 1630 fps range for a 10 inch Contender barrel, i.e., the PPU loading is pretty much a standard .357 load."

I've learned to take ammo manufacturer's velocity data with a grain of salt, sometime with a lot of salt.

The point being the velocity figure is base on the SAAMI MAP. (Maximum Allowable Pressure) Now this is rifle data which I ame a bit more used to working with but the principle is the same. SAAMI sets the MAP for a cartridge usually in conjunction with the ammo maker. Remington decided to only allow 30-06 pressure level for the .280 Remington and the .35 Whelen. I can speeak with cretainty that you load a .280 Rem. to the same pressure lever as a .270 Win. and it's a horse of a different color by a long shot.

A few years back I ran a velocity test on some 180 gr. .308 Win. loads and some 180 gr. 30-06 loads inrifles with 22" barrels. The only differnces were the .308 was a Winchester M70 with 1 in 12" twist and the 30-06 was two rifles, aRemington M700 and a J.V
C. Higgens FN Mauser. The .308 was actually faster by 30 FPS. I'm not sure it was because of the slight slower twist rate of the barrl or if the MAP for the .308 being something like 2KPSI higher. I also ran some of the 30-06 ammo through rifles with 24" and 26" barrel that same day. The only time I came even close to matching the factory advertised 2700 FPS from a 26" barreled Ruger #1B.

If I understand it correctly ammo can only be loaded to the MAP. Lots at tested and it any rounds go over the MAP they entire lot is scrapped and salvaged for componenets. Ammo companies load their ammo to stay below MAP so most if not all don't even come close. One co pany say their 7x57 with 175 gr. bullet does 2440 FPS. Every box of that ammo I've run over the chrongraph struggles to reach 2200 FPS.

My point is, I have to wonder just how much do the factories making handgun ammo work below thw MAP for the cartridge. I not all that good with a handgun andmore and ever time I've shot a chronogph (twice) it was testing loads in a handgun. However, I think most if not all are keeping ammo below the SAAMI dictated MAP.
Paul B.
 

jspick

Bearcat
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The velocity difference in velocity in different rifles is due to the quality of the barrel.
 

BearBiologist

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I can see some keyboard Wyatt Earp shooting at this one! She handled it right!! Back off the trail, bear spray ready. Bear was IDing her, founds she wasn't a threat (if he was concerned, ears would have been back and he would have kept watching her). Only suggestion is that I think she dropped her guard too soon-I would have kept my eyes on the bear longer and the spray up.

 

BearBiologist

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I can see some keyboard Wyatt Earp shooting at this one! She handled it right!! Back off the trail, bear spray ready. Bear was IDing her, founds she wasn't a threat (if he was concerned, ears would have been back and he would have kept watching her). Only suggestion is that I think she dropped her guard too soon-I would have kept my eyes on the bear longer and the spray up.


My second favorite Bev Doolittle:

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My favorite:

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jmca

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Elkhorn, Wisconsin
My wife are headed to the Cabin for a few days! I haven't asked out there if the Black Bears are being obnoxious this year or not?
Ruger Blackhawk OM for troublemakers, not that it will ever be used, but prepared!
 

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