Gunbelt help -

[etdbob]

Howdy all, I have a question for those of you that may know a little something about leather work, gun belts, holsters and such.

I'm currently corresponding with an outfit called Barbed wire leather, ( http://www.bwleather.com/content.php?page_id=1) getting ready to order up a gun belt, a brace of holsters for a pair of Lipseys .44 sheriffs models for cowboy action work, and an extra strong side holster for a 5-1/2 inch Flat Top .44 for general wear about the homestead and town and general field work.

Now my first question concerns the construction of the gunbelt itself.
Barbedwire leather offers a soft leather called "Copper leather" and I figured on folding it over and making a belt like the one I understand John Wayne often wore.
That is to say I was figuring on having it sewn all the way through, cartridge loops and all, instead of sewing it like a traditional money belt where the loops are sewn through only one layer of leather.

The manufacture says they prefer to have the cartridge loops sewn through one side only to protect the stitches from wear.

I imagine it would make a sturdier belt of the soft chaps leather to sew everything through and through, and hey, isn't that the way the Dukes was?

So, does any one here have a belt similar to the Dukes that is sewn through and through? Any bad wear on the cartridge loops stitching exposed on the inside of the belt? Is this a good idea or bad?

Now as to holsters, for cowboy work I now use a left hand and a right hand set of my own make hung from a tool belt I dyed.
What I can't decide upon is if I should order a cross draw and strong side setup as most cowboy action shooters seem to wear
- And have to learn the "cross draw dance" - Or stick to a left hand and a right.

Note I typically draw the offside gun with my left hand and pass it to my right hand fer shooting, using a two handed hold and thumbing the hammer with me left thumb. Sounds silly, but sorta works.

But I was thinking it might me nice to have a cross draw holster for casual wear all by itself about town and what-not.
I don't have to worry about no "cross draw dance" using the thing for day in and day out carry, if I need to use the thing in an emergency the last thang I'll be worried about is the "170 degree Rule" and I figure maybe cross draw would be easier to deal with inna car, at the office and what-not.

I figure a standard left hand holster would never get used except for on the cowboy action range - Unless I ever loose my right arm - Whereas a cross draw might be more useful.

So, any thoughts on a cross draw for a 3-3/4 inch sheriffs model?
I note CASS has a 30 degree angle maximum fer cross draw rigs. Any recommended angle?

Fer the strong side, the Duke had a 15 degree forward angle on his holster, didn't he?
In the past I've tried a straight down hang, my current setup has about a ten or fifteen degree backward angle ( muzzle a bit forward of the grips ) and I'm not sure in several decades of hauling thumbusters about on me belt if I have ever tried a significant forward angle on the butt!
Time to try it out? At least on the strong side sheriffs holster?

Now the 5-1/2 flat top - Any benefit to an angle on that longer hogleg or just dangle it straight down??

The holsters will be of lined soft "Copper leather", pattered sorta after the
"Standard Rooster Cogburn" as made by Triple K.

Edit - Oh yeah, one last question.

Billeted belt or tapered ends?

Pros and cons of each type? I've never actually had a billeted belt. To many layers bunched up by the buckle?

Edit Edit -
Oh yeah, the Dukes belt was folded over and sewn on the top, right? Not folded and sewn on the bottom?

 

[DGW1949]

I tried one of those folded, soft-leather, John Wayne type money belt/gun belts once, and once was enough.
Maybe the Duke liked his, but to me, they aint sturdy enough and don't stay put unless cinched too tight.
Fact is, I dis-liked mine so much, I wouldn't give 50-cents for another.
If you just gotta have one though, yes, wear it with the stiched edge up. That way, if any the treads fail, your money don't fall out the bottom.

My all time favorite gun belt is the 2-1/4" (Bill Jordan) Border Patrol Belt....AKA River Belt. I wore one for years back when I was a cop. Mine was a Bianchi, but lots of companies makes their own version. Get a lined one if you can afford it. It'll last a lifetime.

Different company's has their own way of stitching-on cartridge loops. To me though, the best way is to not stitch them at all, but loop the loops through slots and secure the ends between the two layers of belt material. Obviously, that only works with a double ply belt. The downside is that it cost more to make.

Cant help you with the cant-thing on a cross-draw for CAS because CAS is what it is, and their rules has to be met.
Some clubs requires the "dance", some don't. The point is to not sweep anyone with the muzzle of your gun....in other words, keep it pointed down untill it's ready to be raised at the target.

For strong side, strait down works good for standing. Muzzle-forward works best for speed. Butt-forward works best when sittin' a horse or when crouched.

Hope this helped.

DGW

 

[Chuck 100 yd]

I shoot CAS also and make my own leather.
I have come to prefer no cant at all on my cross draw holster(straight up and down)
And I wear it almost in front of my left leg. Very little chance of braking the 170 that way and it it very fast. My right holster is slanted muzzle forward about 5 deg.
The money belt is soft and comfortable to wear for long lengths of time but not ridged if you need a belt to be ridged. I wear a simple belt with no added billet or chape, just tapered ends with 2" buckles and the main part 2 1/2" wide.


Have fun!!

 

[ndcowboy]

El Paso Saddlery does the same thing with the moneybelt - they sew the cartridge loops on, then fold it over - so it is not sewn all the way through. I've got two of their Duke money belts, and they are great.

As far as "crossdraw" versus "left handed holster," I tried both, and prefer left handed holster when wearing two guns, even through I could just about cut off my left hand I'm so poor with it. If I'm carrying just one gun, I don't mind crossdraw.

 

[etdbob]

Nice rig Blackhawk!
Yeah, I was thinking something along the same lines, a 2-1/2 inch belt tapered to 2" and a simple brass buckle.

I think I'd want some cant on the cross draw. Maybe 20 degrees?
I am leaning to a 15 degree butt forward cant for the strong side sheriffs holster, like the Dukes was supposed to be, and not sure about the 5-1/2 Flat Top holster.
The butt forward cant might help with the draw of a long barreled revolver?

I reckon those El Paso rigs are great NdCowboy!
In fact I was going back and forth between ordering a Triple K
"Rooster Cogburn" rig or the El Paso "Shootest" rig, leaning to the El Paso on account of I figure the quality is a little higher, and to the Triple K on account of the lower cost, especially when you buy 'em from "America's Gun Store LLC" or similar discount outfit.
But, I need three holsters so any way you figure it the cost is gonna be high, and then I saw a local advertisement for BW Leather.

Cheryl at BW has offered me a fantastic price for ordering the three hostlers at once and her price on the belt is less too, yet the quality of her work looks great and I figure I might as well support local talent. It will cost me less than a Triple K rig. Nothing fancy, but a solid workable rig.

 

[ndcowboy]

I agree that it's a great idea to support your local leather-carving lady!
I only buy from El Paso Saddlery if I get a coupon (about 2 times a year they send out a decent discount coupon via email) or off the forum or ebay. Their regular price is fairly steep, but the quality is top notch. I'm waiting on a Ranger Belt and a 1930 Austin holster for a 1911 from them right now - had a 20 percent off coupon for that one
Don't hesitate to post pictures of your new rig when it comes in!

 

[etdbob]

Oh, you bet I'll be showing this rig off when I get it.
It's just a plain jane rig but I'm so excited I'll probably only take it off when I go to bed at night!

Finally, a decent rig for my favorite thumbusters!
Right now I'm using a ten dollar tool belt from Home Depot that I dyed with a strong mix of coffee and tea, and two home made holsters for the Sheriffs guns and a modified Uncle Mikes vertical shoulder holster for the Flat Top.

Only photo I seem to have of this rig - Tuckered out Bob!

Hey, I'd just hiked three miles dropping 1,800 feet with a 28 pound backpack at the start of a three day backpacking trip. Downhill can be as tiring as uphill!

Just remove one strap from a standard Uncle Mikes and add a cartridge slider to the one remaining strap and adjust it long to hang at yer hip, and connect it to yer backpack hip belt. 'Bout the only way I know to carry a hogleg and wear a heavy backpack.

OK so, back to the gunbelt - I got a problem. I was all convinced that a tapered end was the way to go but with a folded belt we'd be cutting the fold off! And the soft chaps leather will not hold the buckle holes well, will it?

Cheryl at BW says she can use eyelets fer the holes and sew the top and bottom of the tapered part and make it look OK, but maybe a billet and chape is the way to go?
Not sure which way to jump here.

She doesn't like "ranger type" belts with the billets because of all the added bulk

 

[Chuck 100 yd]

You wont like a belt made of two layers of light leather and tapered too. Eyelets for the holes would tear out in short order. Why use two layers of 4 to 6 oz. leather when softer temper leathers are easy to come by. If it is not going to have fancy tooling there is no need for a hard tempered leather. A softer leather in, say, 8-9 oz. veg. tan will make a nice durable belt that is comfortable to wear.

Money belts were used back in the day when everyone got paid in silver and gold coin and did not want their pockets,if they had any,full of coins. They would slide them down inside the hollow tubular gun belt for safe keeping.

 

[Rodfac]

I've built two of the "Duke's" old money belt type gunbelts for personal use. Since I carry a variety of single actions on them, I did not add loops to the belt, but will opine that if you want loops, on a money belt/gunbelt, they should be stitched through only one layer of the folded leather. This keeps chafing the stitches to a minimum as the commercial builder recommended. Instead of loops as an integral part of the belt, slide on, 12-rounds ammunition carriers are what I use; plus you can use them if you just want to tote a holster on your pants belt, forgoing the gunbelt.

I built mine using billet straps for buckle and hole punched straps, stitching them directly through both layers of the gunbelt...(yeah, I know, chafing may be a factor, but hasn't in the 3 years I've used them). In real, old-west usage, a money/gunbelt was open on one end to allow slipping large denomination coins into the belt. As we don't need that feature anymore, I closed the ends of mine.

The pictures I've seen of Wayne's belt, show it to be stitched on top, with loops and made of rough out soft leather. I built mine that way, and must say that it's the most comfortable belt of any type that I own...pants belt or gunbelt! One of my sons is of the same opinion, and has built two for his own use and a friend's.

Wayne's belt had a hellofa lot of loops on it...probably a movie affectation since most cowpokes of that era were working cowboys and couldn't stand the add'l weight...and if a short gun at all was in their rig, it was carried in the slicker roll, out of the weather, behind the saddle. I don't participate in the modern cowboy style shooting games so I don't know about carrying two guns, or what rig is necessary to get at them in competition; but the weight is considerable. My NV in .45 Colt, weights right at 45 oz., loaded...two of them would have me hobbling around, not to mention the ammunition!

Here's a pic of Wayne's rig and one of mine. Incidentally, the buckle on mine came off the rotted-out offside stirrup leather, on a 1904 McClellan cavalry saddle...a nice touch I think. Whoops...forgot to attch my own pic...in this one the rough out leather shows a bit pink...something in the electronic pic process...beats me, but it's a soft pale yellow in daylight....

Best regards, Rod

 

[etdbob]

Hey Rod,
Where is the pic of the rig you made that you promised?
I'd love to see it.

I'm convinced. The way to go is with a billeted end.
I'll try for 24 loops on it but the lady isn't sure that many will fit around my skinny frame! I just like having plenty of ammo on hand, I don't have to keep it filled up - But I probably will.
She says the loops need stiffer leather under them or to sew 'em through both layers.
She made this rig -

And you can see a stiffer leather strip under the loops. My belt will be two layers of the leather that belt is made from, should be OK when sewn through.

Not sure how that tapered belt holds the holes for the buckle, I'll have to ask...

Two guns is awful heavy! Even my little sheriffs guns add up.
At cowboy matches nobody seems to have any ammo on their belts to save weight, except maybe a few shotgun shells, and many folk use a separate belt fer that. Me, I just stuff the shotgun shells in my vest pockets. So far we haven't had any stages that require 25 shotgun shells, but they keep threatening...

We just load from boxes at a bench before the stage. Haven't had a stage yet where we need to reload.

I'd never wear two pistols ordinarily, or carry one in a strong side left hand holster, so for maximum utility my second holster will be a cross draw as I might use that now and again all by itself.

 

[NorEaster]

My CAS belt has no bullet loops; but it does have shotgun shell loops.
It is a single layer of 8-9 oz leather with a tapered end.
I buckle it in the back. I shoot double duelist, so I have double strong side holsters.

 

[etdbob]

Got it all figured out and this is the results -

Now the lil' bearcat shopkeeper holster is designed to be worn on both my narrow pants belt and the wide gunbelt, so it has an extra set of snaps to reduce the size of the belt tunnel so it don't flop about on a pants belt -

'Nother shot without the flash, shows what the back of the holsters look like -

Now I gotta say the soft chaps leather gunbelt is the most comfortable I have worn. It is as soft as an old british web pistol belt I used to own, but has cartridge loops, looks better and supports weight better.

It is true this isn't a stiff duty belt suitable for holding ten pounds around your waist, but fer just a thumbuster and some shells, it can't be beat!

I've hardly taken it off since I got it. Today at work I have my 5-1/2 Flat Top hanging from it. Gotta love states with good open carry laws, and I've simply worn my bosses out over the years so they don't care no more!

The belt cost me 110.00, and the holsters were 50 bucks each. I understand the regular price for these holsters ordered one at a time is more like 60 bucks or so,
but that still seems a great price to me for a well fitting lined holster, and I highly recommend BW leather if ya need something to haul yer hog leg in!

And just for fun, the state of the art arsenal the belt and holster is for!

 

[ndcowboy]

Glad you got what you wanted! Looks like a nice setup - but you're gonna need suspenders to wear all those guns at one time! :lol:
I hope you get years of great service out of them. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Rodfac]

Etdbob, looks like a nice rig...fact is, every rig posted looks good to me. I especially like that extra set of snaps idea for reducing the belt loop size...I make mine for one or the other: 2+" for the gun belt or 1-1/2" for my normal levis belt...since I make my own...and a Tom Threepersons open top takes an evening to stitch up,not including the staining or making a different size where a pattern is required, I've made them specific for one belt or the other. Good luck with your rig, it looks like a keeper. Rod