Food for Thought

Watertender

Watertender

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I thought this might be interesting. I served a formal apprenticeship as have many members of the forum. There is a need for skilled trades and you get paid to learn. College is a good thing for some people but not for others. I actually worked at a college for my last 10 years of public service and they graduated students every year with no job prospects in such valuable fields as art preservation and museum curatorship. My formal papers are as a Plant Utilities Engineer or Stationary Engineer. That was 6000 hours of hands-on experience and an additional 750 hours of schooling that was 32 college credits.

I have a brother in law with a PhD in political science and no job in his field and $250K in student loans. He is working part-time and it amazes him that I have job opportunities in several places. His wife and my wife are sisters and we have been out for dinner when I have been offered jobs. It does not make his wife very happy when it happens. Once was at Thanksgiving dinner in front of the entire family when the maintenance manager for a chemical plant was sitting 2 tables away from us and recognized me. That impressed several family members and my father in law especially. My wife told everyone there that I am offered jobs like that frequently which did not make her sister happy at all....
 
The kind of jobs that require a degree these days, other than Doctors and Lawyers, are with large corporations and the public sector. These are not positions they give to White males unless they're trannies. If they do, it will be to get them to do all the real work while others take credit and get advancement. Besides, most jobs are going to China and India and other places like that anyway.
But the trades here are always looking for Electricians, Plumbers, Carpenters, Mechanics, Concrete Masons, Welders etc. There is a great shortage of Electricians and it isn't getting fulfilled.
Colleges are indoctrination camps where you get brainwashed with Cultural Marxism. I can't imagine paying good money for that.
 
Machinists and Tool and Die Makers are also in demand. Over the last 15 years I have helped a lot of people get into the skilled trades. I have friends who run businesses that would hire and train people that showed interest. Most that I have helped are doing well but since Covid there has been a noticeable change in prospective apprentices. I had one kid give up a plumber's apprenticeship and another who had a chance to become a tool and die maker but can't pass the drug test. It can be disheartening...
 
I fully agree with all of the above.

Our oldest,, while in HS,, got a job in a machine shop. He's still in that industry,, has had both apprentice training, as well as Tech school training. He's now in a good position in an office where they design & make medical supply/tools. He makes more money than any of us. He used to work for MicroTech knives,,, but after they decided to move a large part of their NC operation to Pa. he was without a job. For a very brief period. He was quickly snatched up in a place he'd wanted to work anyway.

Skilled tradesmen always are in demand.
 
mirglip said:
The kind of jobs that require a degree these days, other than Doctors and Lawyers, are with large corporations and the public sector. These are not positions they give to White males unless they're trannies. If they do, it will be to get them to do all the real work while others take credit and get advancement. Besides, most jobs are going to China and India and other places like that anyway.
But the trades here are always looking for Electricians, Plumbers, Carpenters, Mechanics, Concrete Masons, Welders etc. There is a great shortage of Electricians and it isn't getting fulfilled.
Colleges are indoctrination camps where you get brainwashed with Cultural Marxism. I can't imagine paying good money for that.
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Seriously, I get confuuzled EZ...did you mean trainees or really mean trannies?
Now watch somebody say...he meant both!
 
I've frequently written my alma mater (University of Texas at Austin) criticizing them for offering degree programs whose post-graduation earnings aren't enough to pay the graduate's (1) housing and related living costs, (2) car payments and related transportation costs, and (c) debt service on the loans the graduate borrowed to fund that education. It particularly galls me that while UT-Austin is the recipient of those loan proceeds, we, the people, are now expected to pay off those loans courtesy of federal government largesse.

I did an analysis of UT-Austin's various degree programs a couple of years ago, using UT's own graduates' employment data (including earnings after college). Over 50% of those degree programs failed to offer graduates enough earnings to pay for the items specified in the first paragraph. I'm certain that the "tier-two" public universities' programs fare even worse than those at UT-Austin.

Why shouldn't the receiver of those loan proceeds (the universities) be required to repay those defaulted loans?

My solutions: (1) compel the university to guarantee repayment of 100% of the student loan in the event the student defaults; AND (2) force the university to publish an annual report of all such student loan defaults for every undergraduate and graduate degree program; AND (3) force the university to terminate each and every one of those not-valuable degree programs and fire the programs' professors, instructors and support staff. Only after those steps are all taken would that university be allowed to request funding from the state for capital improvements, etc.

Unfortunately, state elected officials don't have the courage to enact those much-needed reforms. Instead, they allow the universities, risk-free, to continue to churn out debt-ridden, unskilled and unemployable new graduates who, broke and unemployed, look to the political left for financial help and jobs. So the cycle continues into perpetuity.

It is a mystery to me why anyone needs/wants a bachelor's degree, master's degree or doctorate in political science, the various social sciences and the myriad of similar worthless degrees. But my suspicion is that they truly don't want to work for a living.

Who's at fault? The parents - for not instilling in their kids the drive to be productive adults. Everyone else is an enabler.
 
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KIR said:
Seriously, I get confuuzled EZ...did you mean trainees or really mean trannies?
Now watch somebody say...he meant both!
Click to expand...
It's a dude in a dress! When I was Chief Engineer I got HR counseling because they tried to bring some tranny through my Powerhouse and I wouldn't let them in. My reason was that they didn't have proper footwear. I was made to take them through and the tranny tripped on the steel mesh catwalk and broke a heel. I just laughed and said that I tried to tell them but they knew better...
 
Best thing I’ve ever seen that shows the ignorance of HR types was signs in braille. These were in a boiler house. The signs read “Hot surface. Do not touch”.

Or the one who had a sign that read “The only limits you have are those you place on yourself”. The young woman got offended when I ask her how many blind airline pilots she knew of.
 
I've worked both sides of this. I've been a factory worker, construction worker, driven a truck, and was a certified level 4 wastewater plant operator. I also have a BA and an MA in counseling and am a Licensed Professional Counselor and a Counseling Supervisor. In my current work as a counselor, I see a good many teenagers, many of whom are really clueless and confused about what they want to do with their life or how they want to earn a living. I strongly encourage many of them to consider a skilled trade, as it is something you can always fall back on even if later on you go a different direction, as I did.
 
RC44Mag said:
and that 9K is based upon a public in state college, forget about out of state universities where it’s 4-5 times higher annually! to have our kids indoctrinated, brainwashed by socialists( at best)!
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I have a feeling that is an older estimate of college costs. In any case it's a big bunch of money for little or no return for some people
 
Watertender said:
I have a feeling that is an older estimate of college costs. In any case it's a big bunch of money for little or no return for some people
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The key words are "SOME PEOPLE".! All my life, I wanted to be a biologist. I grew up in SoCal in the 50s and 60s and loved the ocean (surfing, snorkeling, a lot of fishing); Saw 25 ft basking sharks, chimeras, giant squid, giant pods of 800-1000 dolphins, Mola mola, hammerheads (16 at one time fishing off Baja). I got my chance while in my forties to go back and get my BS in Marine Biology (unfortunately, diabetes prevented my diving), and an MS in Animal Behavior. At age 49, I was hired by USFWS and spent 20+ years doing what I loved (except for 6 years as a Branch Chief). I worked in the Endangered Species Program, and I honestly felt great elation when we were able to save an endangered species and delist it. The first 20+ years in the private sector were a waste (although I was earning $100-$120K per year). Better than cleaning toilets, no matter the earnings! Some people are better suited by the apprentice/trade program. But, remember, it may be hard to get into the trades. I have two friends who entered as apprentice electricians: One couldn't cut it and one is doing well.

Mola mola

1697658655398.png
 
No doubt that most of those who got degrees in the 70's 80's and 90's got a good return on their investment, but going forward appears that the future holds something quite different. JMO.
 
As someone said, getting into the trades an be difficult. In San Francisco back around 1964 I tried to getting the electricians. No family member in the union, go away. ot the same deal when I tried for the plumbers. A good friend who was a plumber had his uncle as business agent and told me to see him. Tell him I sent you. The visit nearly came to blows by the was he sain no. I then tried the auto mechanic's union but they were on strike at the time They said to come back when the strike was over. Id did, and was given a load,"FU" and pushed roughly to the door. Big mistake, I hurt him badly. It may not be that bad elsewhere but in San Francisco the better trade jobs requiring one have family in the specific union requires a family member already inside. Otherwise, you might as urinate up a rope. Results will be the saame regardless of which you choose. I got lucky in one way. When I moved to Nevada I king of bounce areound from one low paying job to another. Found one that lasted a month and got laid off. The day that happened I had a visitor at the house. He was the Metorologst for the state of Nevada and said they had an opening at their office in Winnemuca NV. Would I be interested? I said yes and the rest is history. I never really made the coin some of those in the trades did but enough to buy a house and raise four kids that never went hungry due to lack of funds.
Paul B.
 
My son has been in the plumbing industry for quite a while. He is now making more than my wife and I have ever made- combined!

A good friend went to work for the Fire Department at the same time I got into the automotive industry. He retired at 45 with full pay. Same with a friend that was LEO. Here I am retired with no pension, living off investments until I decide to take my SS. I have no idea why they didn’t tell us to get into FD or LEO in high school….they just pushed college, law and doctor degrees. If they would have told me I could work 20 years and get full retirement pay, there’s no way I wouldn’t have jumped at it!
 
I have commented on this before. My daughter didn't really have an idea for a college major. We offered to pay for the first year if she wanted to go try something. She wouldn't go. She said she wasn't going in debt and didn't want us to go in debt for something she may not want to do as a career. She is like me she has always like to work on things. She took shop classes in school. She really liked to weld. She had a job offer from a large corporation that manufacturers transformers as a welded before she ever got out of high school.
She turned 20 the other day. Welding and loving life. And spoiling Enos.
 

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Paul B said:
As someone said, getting into the trades an be difficult. In San Francisco back around 1964 I tried to getting the electricians. No family member in the union, go away. ot the same deal when I tried for the plumbers. A good friend who was a plumber had his uncle as business agent and told me to see him. Tell him I sent you. The visit nearly came to blows by the was he sain no. I then tried the auto mechanic's union but they were on strike at the time They said to come back when the strike was over. Id did, and was given a load,"FU" and pushed roughly to the door. Big mistake, I hurt him badly. It may not be that bad elsewhere but in San Francisco the better trade jobs requiring one have family in the specific union requires a family member already inside. Otherwise, you might as urinate up a rope. Results will be the saame regardless of which you choose. I got lucky in one way. When I moved to Nevada I king of bounce areound from one low paying job to another. Found one that lasted a month and got laid off. The day that happened I had a visitor at the house. He was the Metorologst for the state of Nevada and said they had an opening at their office in Winnemuca NV. Would I be interested? I said yes and the rest is history. I never really made the coin some of those in the trades did but enough to buy a house and raise four kids that never went hungry due to lack of funds.
Paul B.
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I guess in union states getting into the trades is completely different from non-union states and requires a different strategy...like marrying into a union family of something. It seems like unions circumvent the labor market which doesn't seem fair to me. I was always at the mercy of the market and the employers free will, but I worked as a mechanic until 1999, retired on my own investments and then Social Security kicked in 6 years ago. I never thought I needed a union but would have gladly used the leverage for more pay if I had the opportunity.
 
It used to be hard to get a union apprenticeship and yes nepotism is a big part of it. You had to be related to someone or have political connections to get in.
I have breakfast frequently with members of several unions and they have told me that they can't get enough quality candidates for their apprenticeships. It's the same thing for non union businesses.
40 years ago I would have done almost anything to get an apprenticeship and when I did get mine it was only after they had tried both women and minority candidates.

HW11 you should be very proud of your daughter! I know that the high school level trade school here has had 100% placement in their welding class for many years and high placement in most of the other classes.
One of my high school classmates went to the machine shop program at the local trade school and has worked for the same employer since he was 16. He started as a helper cleaning the machinery in a tool and die shop and is now the superintendent of the place.
My son went to HVAC/R classes in high school and was working in the trade when he was hit by a texting driver on his motorcycle and died as a result of the incident. Since that time I have tried to get as many young people as I can into the skilled trades in his honor.
I have had some very good results and the only thing I ask of the ones that I help is that they help someone into the skilled trades when they become a journeyman and keep the trades alive.
 
I still believe that a collage education is the best for Mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, and civil engineers. Either of those professions will always be looking for people and the pay is very good too.
 
You don't have to be in a union job to get an apprenticeship. My SIL just completed his apprenticeship and got his journeyman's license. He bounced around through a half dozen jobs before he finally took a two-year electrician's course at the local community college. He was offered a job by a local electrical contractor as an apprentice electrician before he graduated. Now that he has in journeyman's license he is looking to move on to a bigger company.

22 years ago my oldest son had just graduated high school and went to the Electrician's Local to see about an apprenticeship. He didn't have the right connections and couldn't get in. Instead he got a job as a funkie working at a machine shop, worked his way up and now is a machinist. He is a guy who hated school and never wanted to set foot in a classroom again. He is doing okay, saved his money and just paid cash for his house.
 
larry8 said:
I still believe that a collage education is the best for Mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, and civil engineers. Either of those professions will always be looking for people and the pay is very good too.
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A degree is mandatory to be licensed in those professions. I have nothing against college or education but my heart and life are with the skilled trades.

I had 2 very nice young mechanical engineers working on my Powerhouse when I was Chief Engineer for the State. I took them under my wing so to speak and taught them a lot of practical hands-on tricks. They actually asked my boss if they could take me to other projects to look them over and get my input. I went to several jobs with them and not only did I help them but each facility offered to hire me.

I have a life long friend who is a professional and civil engineer. He was 8 pay grades higher than I was and he was a supervising bridge inspector. We have had some great conversations about education and skilled trades. We have come to the conclusion that if you have both you benefit greatly and are always employable
 
Unions are worthless. I worked in the glazing industry for 50 years. Raised a family, put them thru college, ugh, and even my wife got a masters, in teaching, ugh. I was making six figures for the last ten years before retiring at 62. To each their own I guess.
 
So you made 6 figures while you were working? You didn’t mention your pension.

I’m going to make 6 figures a year after I retire for the rest of my life.

Unions aren’t worthless.
 
I didn't mention it because it wasn't any of your business. I'm glad you will make six figures for the rest of your life, and I hope the money makes you happy. I didn't need six figures to retire happily. Money is not happiness. I'm sorry, but unions are way past their time. But you keep paying that guy at the top. He love your money. Unions are worthless.
 
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