So today i brought in my GP100 to work with its new trigger job and I was gonna do some braggin. I asked a coworker to bring in his 686 +1 and holy crap, his factory trigger puts mine to shame. Im talking about the breaking point from cocked when you pull the trigger. The gp is smooth,but has a slight travel before the hammer drops. My double action was smoother than his, but when I pulled that 686 trigger, for the first time I got that "breaks like glass" feeling. Is a perfect trigger obtainable for this gun? Tell me some smith horror stories so I can feel better. Good weekend everyone
Feeling bad, one upped by a smith today
- Thread starter Geno
- Start date
louiethelump
Buckeye
Sorry to break this to you, but there is no S&W horror story and the Ruger will NEVER have a S&W trigger. There IS no better DA revolver trigger that is better than the S&W. The notch on the Ruger hammer will never hold the fine sear edge that allows the trigger pull possible with S&W lock work.
Louie
Louie
Donaldjr1969
Blackhawk
I have a cure for that! To avoid being spoiled by a Smith trigger, don't even touch one! Just buy and fire Rugers! :lol:
While I realize it is not anywhere near as nice as an N-frame, I was not too impressed by the 642 Airweight's trigger. Oh, I shot that revolver well enough. But there was nothing that made me feel as that was the be-all, end-all of DAO triggers. If anything, the LCR's trigger beats the snot out of the J-frame.
While I realize it is not anywhere near as nice as an N-frame, I was not too impressed by the 642 Airweight's trigger. Oh, I shot that revolver well enough. But there was nothing that made me feel as that was the be-all, end-all of DAO triggers. If anything, the LCR's trigger beats the snot out of the J-frame.
Jimbo357mag
Hawkeye
What is nice on my Smith is the adjustable mainspring. 8) 8)
...Jimbo
...Jimbo
TiteGroups
Blackhawk
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No doubt the SA trigger on a smith is really nice but triggers aren't everything, I've done target work with my GP that I can't improve on with a Smith. As long as a trigger is reasonably good you will get used to it over time, the trigger is only one aspect.
Donaldjr1969
Blackhawk
I have to agree with that. A trigger is like a clutch. Some cars have really vague clutches while others are truly perfect. But...drivers will in time get used to the vaguest of clutches and be proficient with them. Same with triggers.TiteGroups said:
stantheman86
Buckeye
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Yeah, but your GP will still be shooting hot .357's with no maintenance and nothing done to it, when that S&W 686 has been back to S&W for 3 "tune ups" 
Round for round the GP100 will last longer than a S&W. Durability is much more important to me than a lttle bit slicker of a trigger pull. When I pay good money for tools, I want them to last a long time, not need to be tightened up every 20,000 rounds.
Keep in mind, the DA Six series was the forefather of the GP100, and neither were designed to be match revolvers. They were designed and marketed to capture the duty gun market away from S&W and Colt in the early 1970's, and did take a big chunk of LE sales. PD's and govt. agencies wanted tougher guns that would take the 110-120 gr. .357's that would loosen up the S&W K-frame magnums, and the Rugers also cost less which is a big factor in LE sales. Smooth as glass triggers were not a priority, when the guns needed less maintenance and this means saved $$$.
In short, you get more bang for the buck with the GP100, can shoot hot magnums that would make a S&W throw in the towel, and after some breaking in, I have Rugers that have triggers that don't leave them at any disadvantage to S&W.
Round for round the GP100 will last longer than a S&W. Durability is much more important to me than a lttle bit slicker of a trigger pull. When I pay good money for tools, I want them to last a long time, not need to be tightened up every 20,000 rounds.
Keep in mind, the DA Six series was the forefather of the GP100, and neither were designed to be match revolvers. They were designed and marketed to capture the duty gun market away from S&W and Colt in the early 1970's, and did take a big chunk of LE sales. PD's and govt. agencies wanted tougher guns that would take the 110-120 gr. .357's that would loosen up the S&W K-frame magnums, and the Rugers also cost less which is a big factor in LE sales. Smooth as glass triggers were not a priority, when the guns needed less maintenance and this means saved $$$.
In short, you get more bang for the buck with the GP100, can shoot hot magnums that would make a S&W throw in the towel, and after some breaking in, I have Rugers that have triggers that don't leave them at any disadvantage to S&W.
STGThndr
Bearcat
Guess summa you mugs have never had a Colt Python to play with. A Python with a smith-tuned trigger cannot be out-done by anything else Ive personally fired. SA or DA. Mind you, I like Smiths and Rugers and have owned a few over the years. Just sayin.
buckeyeshooter
Blackhawk
I buy ruger single action and smith and wesson double actions. the smiths are the best double action triggers in the business in my opinion.
buckeyeshooter
Blackhawk
stantheman86 said:Yeah, but your GP will still be shooting hot .357's with no maintenance and nothing done to it, when that S&W 686 has been back to S&W for 3 "tune ups"
Round for round the GP100 will last longer than a S&W. Durability is much more important to me than a lttle bit slicker of a trigger pull. When I pay good money for tools, I want them to last a long time, not need to be tightened up every 20,000 rounds.
Keep in mind, the DA Six series was the forefather of the GP100, and neither were designed to be match revolvers. They were designed and marketed to capture the duty gun market away from S&W and Colt in the early 1970's, and did take a big chunk of LE sales. PD's and govt. agencies wanted tougher guns that would take the 110-120 gr. .357's that would loosen up the S&W K-frame magnums, and the Rugers also cost less which is a big factor in LE sales. Smooth as glass triggers were not a priority, when the guns needed less maintenance and this means saved $$$.
In short, you get more bang for the buck with the GP100, can shoot hot magnums that would make a S&W throw in the towel, and after some breaking in, I have Rugers that have triggers that don't leave them at any disadvantage to S&W.
well you are not shooting the original magnum. The 27 leaves the gp in the dust!
stantheman86
Buckeye
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I don't believe a S&W 27 or 28 will outlast a GP100. If I had the cash and the time I would shoot my Model 28's against my GP's all day every day and see which one broke down first 8) probably the most fun I could have with any experiment.
The French GIGN uses the GP100 and French made .357 Manurhin revolver as issue sidearms. These revolvers must meet the standard of 150 rounds of full bore .357's fired for daily range practice. They had tried the Colt Trooper III and they didn't hold up to this standard.
The GIGN also use the Redhawk with scopes, for short range "sniping".
Several other counter terror units around the world use the GP100, probably because they can take hard use and never need any real maintenance.
The French GIGN uses the GP100 and French made .357 Manurhin revolver as issue sidearms. These revolvers must meet the standard of 150 rounds of full bore .357's fired for daily range practice. They had tried the Colt Trooper III and they didn't hold up to this standard.
The GIGN also use the Redhawk with scopes, for short range "sniping".
Several other counter terror units around the world use the GP100, probably because they can take hard use and never need any real maintenance.
If you're shooting a Smith 27 or 28 in FAST DA, I have no doubt that you could beat it to death much faster than a GP100. (Heavy cylinder, lots of momentum.)
Shooting both either SA or more moderately paced DA, I think either one of them would still be going strong when your grandchildren passed them on. :wink:
Shooting both either SA or more moderately paced DA, I think either one of them would still be going strong when your grandchildren passed them on. :wink:
STGThndr said:
not a MUG but been around long enough to know why Colt dropped the Python with its fragile lockwork known for its inability to hold up, and famous for going out of time! I am certain you wont find a more durable out of the box revolver in 357 D.A. than the GP, and the Security Six is real close to the same status!
DanChamberlain
Single-Sixer
I love Rugers, but they've never been "elegant."
They are working men's guns. They are great! But an old Smith is simply better, even if they are not as strong.
I have a 29-2 that will make a man dream!
Dan
They are working men's guns. They are great! But an old Smith is simply better, even if they are not as strong.
I have a 29-2 that will make a man dream!
Dan
Sal1950
Blackhawk
Geno said:
Geno,
I won't debate what the other guys said here, for the most part it's all spot on.
That said, if your GP's SA pull still has enough discernible creep that handling a stock S&W made you say "holy crap" I wouldn't feel satisfied that the gun was as good as it could be. I'd either talk to the guy that did your "trigger job" about the creep or find another gun smith to talk to about it.
I've got a Security Six I purchased new in the early eighty's and all I ever did to that one was a spring job and a bit of shooting. It breaks like glass at 2 3/4 lbs and I think may be my favorite SA trigger in my entire collection.
Good Luck,
Sal
TiteGroups
Blackhawk
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- Dec 23, 2009
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Some GP's have more creep than others. Spring kits won't do anything for creep.
Sal1950
Blackhawk
TiteGroups said:
Well DUH, I didn't know that. :shock:
My point was that they have the potential to be EXTREMELY good. If not out of the box, then after being properly tuned by a expert smith. I was just lucky with my S6, plus I think maybe Ruger showed a little better attention to these details in the 80s. That and the lawyers weren't up their butts back then.
Sal
TiteGroups
Blackhawk
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Sal1950 said:
That comment wasn't aimed at you but for the first time buyer of a GP, the triggers do vary in the amount of creep they have so it's a good idea to try a few and pick the best one. Then put a spring kit in it and you'll have pretty decent trigger without sending it to a 'smith.
wildcatter is right on! While the Python is the best out of the box DA trigger you will encounter, they do not hold up and trust me, are a nightmare to tune and "keep" that way as are all of the old Colt lockwork revolvers. The rebound lever itself controls four functions and as a gunsmith, you can spend a few days putting one right and then "hope" it stays that way! I have tuned Ruger DA's to be just as smooth as a Smith. I not only own many of both, but have worked on a large "slew" of both over 45 years of gunsmithing...........................Dick :wink:
I agree with StgThndr and Pinecone. On a tuned Python the double action can be taken down really light and the single action will be so, too BUT it will have a long hammer arc or locktime. I have had a Walt Sherman Python with roller action and a one tuned by Lynn Alexiou in Michigan with the bent double action shelf on the trigger. The Sherman would fire any primer in DA at 6.5 lbs and probably lighter from what I read. Years ago in an article on Sherman he stated some of his "game guns" had triggers in the 4 lb range. However, fast and furious DA shooting will eventually beat up the hand and endshake if not controlled to a greater degree than S&W or Ruger will beat up the gun. Cunningham on his site has some comments on the Colt tuneups being more frequent. On a master tune of a Python the action geometry is redesigned to get a straight through pull as opposed to the stock stacking. There are a number of different technigues to achieve this that work with varying degrees of success and as there is more work involved vis-a-vis a Smith or Ruger one pays accordingly.
For a very fast lock time one could look at the old Dan Wessons but the trigger pulls due to very short hammer arc are heavier even in a tuned gun and due to the action design has some stacking in it.
The GP has a larger hammer arc than the Smith and the lockup is earlier so this will affect what one feels when cycling the action. On the other hand I have a tuned GP that the DA is 7.4 lb and single 2.5 lb that TJ Custom did. I also have a tuned 686 Plus Mtn. Gun with a 7.25 lb DA and 2.5 single. The Smith SA could be reduced a bit with lighter rebould spring and if one uses an extended firing pin take off about a half pound in double action. It has MIM parts so one can argue when Ruger completes the changeover to MIM hammers and triggers it should be about as crisp in SA. I imagine if a person were after the absolute lightest trigger pull possible they could do the same with an extended firing pin to the Ruger and employ a lightened hammer, also.
Of the two I would part with the GP last due to it being more durable. I even had a .22Lr Smith Model 18 develop endshake in it.
.
Having a number of "tuned" guns over the years one factor affecting the result is the quality of the "tune" and what all was done to it. Tuning them will not make them more accurate, per se. It is up to the individual as to whether they think it is a worth while endeavor. As to lightness of trigger pull I used to think that the lighter the better but as time moves on if one has a smooth trigger I prefer a bit heavier pull than the absolute lightest pull usually around 9 lbs in DA. Now, it is more an academic exercise as to lightness.
For a very fast lock time one could look at the old Dan Wessons but the trigger pulls due to very short hammer arc are heavier even in a tuned gun and due to the action design has some stacking in it.
The GP has a larger hammer arc than the Smith and the lockup is earlier so this will affect what one feels when cycling the action. On the other hand I have a tuned GP that the DA is 7.4 lb and single 2.5 lb that TJ Custom did. I also have a tuned 686 Plus Mtn. Gun with a 7.25 lb DA and 2.5 single. The Smith SA could be reduced a bit with lighter rebould spring and if one uses an extended firing pin take off about a half pound in double action. It has MIM parts so one can argue when Ruger completes the changeover to MIM hammers and triggers it should be about as crisp in SA. I imagine if a person were after the absolute lightest trigger pull possible they could do the same with an extended firing pin to the Ruger and employ a lightened hammer, also.
Of the two I would part with the GP last due to it being more durable. I even had a .22Lr Smith Model 18 develop endshake in it.
.
Having a number of "tuned" guns over the years one factor affecting the result is the quality of the "tune" and what all was done to it. Tuning them will not make them more accurate, per se. It is up to the individual as to whether they think it is a worth while endeavor. As to lightness of trigger pull I used to think that the lighter the better but as time moves on if one has a smooth trigger I prefer a bit heavier pull than the absolute lightest pull usually around 9 lbs in DA. Now, it is more an academic exercise as to lightness.
deserttrans
Buckeye
Hard to beat a S&W trigger. Dan Wesson's are right there too.
protoolman
Service-Sixer
The older long action Smith and Wessons were a lot nicer to me than the modern short action. I like Dan Wessons but the shorter action was so different than my Rugers I ended up selling them all. Give me a nice Ruger any day. I have one with a better trigger than any stock Smith and Wesson. Maybe the Smith can be a bit smoother or crisper overall with work. I don't really know but I'm well satisfied with the action on all my Rugers at this point. I see no advantage in any other design that would make we want to trade.
stantheman86
Buckeye
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Most Pythons these days spend most of their time weighing down gun safes.......unless you have the skills to work on them yourself, there are very few gunsmiths left who are willing to work on them, or know how to. They are beautiful guns, no doubt sweet shooters but the lockwork is like a Swiss watch and needs to be maintained accordingly.
All a good trigger job does is replicate the break in of several thousand cycles. Unless you shoot in the "gun games" most shooters won't benefit a whole lot from an expensive trigger job. I don't have a single DA Six or GP that hasn't broken in to a very usable trigger pull after a few hundred rounds, and they just keep getting better. Some are smoother than others, but none are so bad that I can't shoot them well enough to do the job. My two Redhawks are on par with my S&W 29 and 28's and shoot just as well anyway, so I'll take the more durable gun every time.
So people spend hundreds to get a smooth as glass DA pull and a glass rod SA break in an older S&W so they can take it to the range once a month, to shoot 2-3" tighter groups at 25 yards than an out of the box GP100
In the way the Six and GP were designed to be used, as duty guns and defensive weapons, pin point accuracy is not a priority over durability and reliability. The issue M4's and M16's used by the military won't shoot as well as a match tuned Colt or Bushmaster AR-15 with a tight match barrel and a super crisp trigger, it doesn't mean the military rifles aren't effective for the job they are designed for.
I know, I "tuned" a S&W 10-14 and it shoots cloverleafs at 25 yards in SA, as opposed to my stock, untouched GP100's which shoot a little looser of a group, but in the real world none of this really matters because I'm not a professional match shooter. Either way I can aerate the head of a B-27 target in DA at 25 yards with my bone stock PD trade in Sixes and GP's and they are "combat accurate" I don't see how much more most of us really need. 8)
All a good trigger job does is replicate the break in of several thousand cycles. Unless you shoot in the "gun games" most shooters won't benefit a whole lot from an expensive trigger job. I don't have a single DA Six or GP that hasn't broken in to a very usable trigger pull after a few hundred rounds, and they just keep getting better. Some are smoother than others, but none are so bad that I can't shoot them well enough to do the job. My two Redhawks are on par with my S&W 29 and 28's and shoot just as well anyway, so I'll take the more durable gun every time.
So people spend hundreds to get a smooth as glass DA pull and a glass rod SA break in an older S&W so they can take it to the range once a month, to shoot 2-3" tighter groups at 25 yards than an out of the box GP100
In the way the Six and GP were designed to be used, as duty guns and defensive weapons, pin point accuracy is not a priority over durability and reliability. The issue M4's and M16's used by the military won't shoot as well as a match tuned Colt or Bushmaster AR-15 with a tight match barrel and a super crisp trigger, it doesn't mean the military rifles aren't effective for the job they are designed for.I know, I "tuned" a S&W 10-14 and it shoots cloverleafs at 25 yards in SA, as opposed to my stock, untouched GP100's which shoot a little looser of a group, but in the real world none of this really matters because I'm not a professional match shooter. Either way I can aerate the head of a B-27 target in DA at 25 yards with my bone stock PD trade in Sixes and GP's and they are "combat accurate" I don't see how much more most of us really need. 8)
BlackEagle
Blackhawk
I don't know much about Ruger DA's but a very good and experienced gunsmith can do amazing things with a S&W trigger. I have a 5" S&W 629 Classic with a SA and DA trigger that are unbelievable. In practical terms it probably isn't that important, but it is fun to watch someone's jaw drop when they think their stock S&W or Ruger trigger is smooth and they try one like this.
"Most Pythons these days spend most of their time weighing down gun safes.......unless you have the skills to work on them yourself, there are very few gunsmiths left who are willing to work on them, or know how to. They are beautiful guns, no doubt sweet shooters but the lockwork is like a Swiss watch and needs to be maintained accordingly."
I agree. As I don't like having guns that don't get used or you can't get fixed they have found a new home. The only 2 gunsmiths I know of working on them these days are Cunningham and Frank Glenn albeit C&S does work on them. Sherman does not work on revolvers anymore and others have retired or moved on. Cunnigham is booked up for over a year right now so that leaves Glenn.
Getting back to the Smith vs. Ruger I see no reason a knowledgeable and competent 'smith could not tune a Ruger to have as nice a double action as the S&W. The lock time will be a bit longer is all. Single action is a function of removing excess creep without getting into push off and sear angles along with hardness of the hammer/trigger. With Ruger switching to MIM the last should be equal and the other two can be modified. If lightness is a criteria one should consider contacting Randy Lee of Apex Tactical. His large frame Smith game guns have DA pulls in the 4 lb range if one wants to use Federal primers and he did a carry S&W 66 with a 6 lb DA. He once commented the GP could be taken down to around 5 pounds if using Federal primers and lightened hammer and some other tricks. It is a matter of how much do you want to spend and what is the purpose of the gun.
With regards to the French using Rugers one of the later Manurhin designs used a Ruger Six as the basis for the design with some modifications.
http://www.chapuis-armes.com/manurhin/65-32-match.html
I agree. As I don't like having guns that don't get used or you can't get fixed they have found a new home. The only 2 gunsmiths I know of working on them these days are Cunningham and Frank Glenn albeit C&S does work on them. Sherman does not work on revolvers anymore and others have retired or moved on. Cunnigham is booked up for over a year right now so that leaves Glenn.
Getting back to the Smith vs. Ruger I see no reason a knowledgeable and competent 'smith could not tune a Ruger to have as nice a double action as the S&W. The lock time will be a bit longer is all. Single action is a function of removing excess creep without getting into push off and sear angles along with hardness of the hammer/trigger. With Ruger switching to MIM the last should be equal and the other two can be modified. If lightness is a criteria one should consider contacting Randy Lee of Apex Tactical. His large frame Smith game guns have DA pulls in the 4 lb range if one wants to use Federal primers and he did a carry S&W 66 with a 6 lb DA. He once commented the GP could be taken down to around 5 pounds if using Federal primers and lightened hammer and some other tricks. It is a matter of how much do you want to spend and what is the purpose of the gun.
With regards to the French using Rugers one of the later Manurhin designs used a Ruger Six as the basis for the design with some modifications.
http://www.chapuis-armes.com/manurhin/65-32-match.html
stantheman86
Buckeye
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- Jun 4, 2010
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- 1,103
That Manurhin in the link looks good, either the cylinder opens to the right or the image is reversed 8)
The "Made in France" stamp means they must export them here to the US, I have never seen one though.
The "Made in France" stamp means they must export them here to the US, I have never seen one though.
Never seen one so can't comment on the reversed image. One change Manurhin did make was to go to a removeable side plate. Wonder what changes they made to the innards? With unlimited funds it would be interesting to dissect a Manurhin (or for that matter a Korth). With limited funds some guns must go to finance others. As it was had a lot of money tied up in the roller action Python.
Hmm, this image shows the release on the left:
I might comment also fo anyone interested that at one time Walt Sherman had a roller action conversion for S&W, too on the pre-MIM guns. Unlike the C&S conversions his retained the single action feature. Had a 625 Mtn. Gun with the roller action. From what I could determine the roller action was worth maybe a 1/2 lb reduction in trigger pull on a Smith
Hmm, this image shows the release on the left:
I might comment also fo anyone interested that at one time Walt Sherman had a roller action conversion for S&W, too on the pre-MIM guns. Unlike the C&S conversions his retained the single action feature. Had a 625 Mtn. Gun with the roller action. From what I could determine the roller action was worth maybe a 1/2 lb reduction in trigger pull on a Smith
