FBI returns to the 9mm....

[Ray Newman]

"UPDATE: The FBI’s solicitation for 9mm handguns generated a flood of questions from state and local agencies, many who carry .40, about the change. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, a division of DHS, currently issues the Sig 229 in .40 but allows agents to purchase and carry 9mm Glocks. ICE has a solicitation out for a new service handgun in 9mm. Some Army Special Operations Command elements carry the Glock 22 in .40. They are currently purchasing the Glock 19 in 9mm. There is no word as to the future of their .40s. The FBI drove the initial move from 9mm to .40 for many of these same agencies. As new details come to light about the FBI’s ultimate choice, expect more details here. Below is a statement was prepared the FBI Training Division to answer those questions and was intended for dissemination to law enforcement agencies. It was not classified Law Enforcement Sensitive and has spread to civilians. I have confirmed its origin and feel that its release poses no threat to law enforcement while providing enlightening science, paid for by taxpayer dollars, to the public."

Read all 'bout it:
http://thearmsguide.com/7948/fbi-picks-9mm/

 

[GunnyGene]

Took them long enough to figure this out. :roll: I'd quibble with them on terminal ballistics tho, simply because it's impossible to know what the bullet will do in any given situation when it hits the target. Other than that, their study just reinforces what has been common knowledge in the shooting community for decades.

Interesting read tho.

 

[blackhawknj]

IMHO it often seems government agency firearms purchases have less to with actual effectiveness and more to do with fashion, budget allotments, etc.
I have next to no experience with the 40 S&W, but as a Life Member of SNM-Sons of Neanderthal Man-I wonder how many problems arise from using fairly powerful cartridges in lightweight frame guns.

 

[Xsales]

if the Gov changes and stocks a well designed & deep penetrating 9 mm I can't see an issue

Many use other types of firepower and if that saves tx dollars by lowering cost VD 40 or 45 see be it

Take a 2/3+ hollow point expanding 9mm in the chest and see how it feels

 

[gramps]

I would further quibble, that shot placement is a bigger factor than caliber. I haven't seen the increase of terminal effects of projectiles since 2007 they describe. In a decade they will trend back to larger calibers.
gramps

 

[wwb]

If you remember, the .40 S&W came about as a "reduced power" option to the 10mm. The FBI started with the 10mm and decided it had too much recoil, so they went to the .40.... now they're going to the 9.

Oh, well. What's old is new again.

As a side note, in the referenced link, did anybody catch the note about the percentage of missed shots by LEOs?

 

[SAJohn]

I did and was not surprised. In the heat of battle with large capacity magazines, it is very difficult to not to go into the "spray and pray" mode.

I find it almost funny when they talk about not wanting ammo with excess penetration

Last summer near here (Sisters, OR) during a traffic stop, the bad guy stuck his handgun out of his car window and fired a couple of rounds at the two LEO's then took off. The cops chased him down a dead end road. When the suspect stepped out of his car with gun in hand the cops let loose with their 17 (19?) round semi-autos. A nearby civilian could not get into camera range but did get audio of those 34 or so rounds all being fired in less than 10 seconds. We were never told how many hits occurred but the BG was definitely dead.

A LEO once told me a story about a friend of his involved in a gun fight with a criminal at less than 20 feet. They both emptied their guns with neither scoring a hit.

SAJohn (a hunter who used a Ruger No. 1)

 

[Pat-inCO]

Take a 2/3+ hollow point expanding 9mm in the chest and see how it feels

Perhaps you should review the 1986 FBI shooting that precipitated the
initial move away from the 9mm. In that shooting, two FBI agents were
killed by the purp that received a fatal shot, from a 9mm, that was not
incapacitating. The guy was stunned, then recovered and grabbed a
Ruger Minui-14 and killed the two agents.

As noted above, the FBI decided on the 10mm, then decided the recoil
was excessive and had made a reduced power 10mm, which became
the 40S&W.

At the time of the publishing of study results, one Patrick Aubry of the
FBI said that the difference between the 10mm and .45ACP was a few
percentage points and that the decision could have been made either
way. Except now, WE, once again, are paying more in taxes to make
up for poor decisions made by one of our government agencies. :roll:

 

[4kdave]

What's the government going to do with all the thousands of rounds of .40 they bought this past year or so??

 

[GunnyGene]

If you remember, the .40 S&W came about as a "reduced power" option to the 10mm. The FBI started with the 10mm and decided it had too much recoil, so they went to the .40.... now they're going to the 9.

Oh, well. What's old is new again.

True, same old arms race that's been going on since the beginning of time - literally.

 

[737tdi]

Article Quote: "One should never debate on a gun make or caliber alone. The projectile is what wounds and ultimately this is where the debate/discussion should focus. In each of the three most common law enforcement handgun calibers (9mm Luger, .40 Smith & Wesson and .45 AUTO) there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of failing law enforcement officers and in each of these three calibers there are projectiles which have a high likelihood of succeeding for law enforcement officers during a shooting incident. The choice of a service projectile must undergo intense scrutiny and scientific evaluation in order to select the best available option."

I really wish they would put out their data on this particular subject. I.E.: What is the ammo that the FBI is going to use? Would be interesting to know.

Karl

 

[Jeepnik]

Let's face it. Miami was the impetus for the whole caliber change. But it wasn't a caliber issue. It was poor tactics plain and simple. You don't try to take down felons armed with rifles when you are armed, mostly, with handguns.

But, changing caliber sure sidetracked the debate.

 

[DGW1949]

So....the fbi is saying that all of it's prior testing and/or decision-making relative to "what caliber is best?" has been flawed and/or influenced by "myths and folklore".....yet, the LEO community is supposed to take this latest "revelation" at face value?.....

Well, all-righty then.
I guess it's all about the bonded bullet now.

Yeah, whatever. :roll: .

DGW

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Give 'em a choice, 9mm or 40 S&W. Does the whole agency have to shoot the same ammo?

 

[SAJohn]

I will stay with my Charter Arms .44 special.

 

[Xsales]

Take a 2/3+ hollow point expanding 9mm in the chest and see how it feels

Perhaps you should review the 1986 FBI shooting that precipitated the
initial move away from the 9mm. In that shooting, two FBI agents were
killed by the purp that received a fatal shot, from a 9mm, that was not
incapacitating. The guy was stunned, then recovered and grabbed a
Ruger Minui-14 and killed the two agents.

I also said that the 9mm is not their only firepower

In a gunfight take larger power like the mini 14 the perp had

This is a daily carry handgun that in most situations I think they feel will be enough to allow a retreat, regroup, then go in with large power in manpower and firepower

If that were not true then they may as well go back to the 10mm or maybe the daily carry can be the 50 cal. or .................

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

This has been coming for a long time. Sales of the 40 have dropped off dramatically. I dropped the 40, 2 years ago. I stayed with 9mm and 45 ACP. Tough enough to keep up with 2 calibers vs 3. The .gov already took over a billion 40 S&W off the market so now they are going to go after the 9. Irritates me. My take is a lot of officers could not handle the additional recoil, and they prefer the extra 2-3 shots no better than they shoot.

 

[prairieviper]

All we need do in government when some bureaucrat wants to spend money on a new toy or pet project is provide a 'study' to justify it. A waste of taxpayer dollars, in my opinion.

 

[dougader]

The Winchester Silvertip performed as designed, but it was not a straight on frontal shot. It entered from the side, breaking arm bone before penetrating the chest, stopping just short of the heart. 45 auto ammo of the day would not have performed any better.

Compare this to a Salem, Oregon, shooting where a retired officer shot a guy after he was run off the road and viciously attacked. The attacker was shot in the chest and dropped dead on the spot. The ammo? Winchester 9mm 115 grain Silvertip hollowpoint.

 

[Taterman]

What's the government going to do with all the thousands of rounds of .40 they bought this past year or so??

With the Obummer administration, probably dump them in the ocean at night.

 

[mohavesam]

The 9mm will work as long as one simple rule is implemented: A new 90-day qualification:

Place your first shot and all subsequent shots into a six-inch circle at 25 yards using your duty gun.
One month suspension for every shot missing the circle.
Oh yeah - all shots must be fired while the shooter is bathed in red & white strobes and 90-decibel random noises...

Then I believe the 9mm will be adequate offensively and defensively for all agents and administration.

 

[blackhawknj]

Any toxicology reports on the perp in the Miami shootout ? I recall Massad Ayoob had an article on a shoot out between an ISP trooper armed with his S&W M-39 who also carried a spare magazine and an individual on PCP, and Charlie Askins wrote of shooting it out with a "tough ombre" who absorbed an incredible amount of punishment and knowing Charlie, he didn't miss.

 

[exavid]

I'm gonna have to watch Bud's Gunshop for police turn ins. I don't see the reason for an argument over which caliber is best. Best is having all three, 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP. I enjoy all three of mine.

 

[gramps]

Any toxicology reports on the perp in the Miami shootout ? I recall Massad Ayoob had an article on a shoot out between an ISP trooper armed with his S&W M-39 who also carried a spare magazine and an individual on PCP, and Charlie Askins wrote of shooting it out with a "tough ombre" who absorbed an incredible amount of punishment and knowing Charlie, he didn't miss.

Toxicology was negative for drugs. They were fueled entirely on adrenaline! The fight was stopped with a .38 spcl
gramps

 

[welder]

I'm gonna have to watch Bud's Gunshop for police turn ins. I don't see the reason for an argument over which caliber is best. Best is having all three, 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP. I enjoy all three of mine.

Great attitude on the debate, I feel the same way and would add the trusty .357. I have them all and enjoy them all except the .40, but I still practice with it some although I use the 9mm for ccw. With any round, placement trumps the day and more time should be spent building general skills rather than debating yet again the 9mm v. whatever war.

 

[mohavesam]

How is this not political?

 

[sliclee]

The Miami Shootout-
Every single cop, police officer,state trooper, deputy, FBI or any other agency that answered the call that day IS OR WAS A HERO.
They all knew they were outgunned, they all knew the bad guys had full auto weapons,YET THEY CAME to do battle with forces of evil. There was no shame except to the govt who found a way to try embarrass law enforcement.
The men from Miami were having lunch, they called in a break. When the call came in the guns,armor were in the trunk of their vehicles. Then, no one carried a rifle or shotgun,it was bad taste said the FBI.
ILL bet anything, you never knew the FBI forbid agents from carrying guns. It was forbidden in the 40's or 50's I forgot.
In its place, this all took place after J.EDGER HOOVER died, the fbi also died then.
Did you know,in the 50's the fbi was required to wear a uniform. THATS RIGHT, a uniform. The fool who took over was an advanced moron of POLITICALLY CORRECT. Effective immediately ALL agents will start wearing a 3 button suit, color in summer will be light grey and winter will be medium grey. The summer pant will have no cuff at the bottom of the leg and the winter leg
ill have a cuff, 1 1/2",etc,etc.This was done supposedly the business people of Madison AVE IS WHAT THEY WORE. No agent will carry a gun ever.We of the fbi are lawyers and will act like one and dress the same.
Ina lighter note, at no time did the fbi do any major or minor testing of any calibers.
I will not speak against the dead, all testing of shootings on humans, animals,skin,gelatin and all other media were done by 2 men of the NYC POLICE DEPT. They traveled all over the US doing this. Their info is out there. Its called STOPPING POWER.
It is the first and only one of its kind.

 

[Jeepnik]

Interestingly, it took an event in North Hollywood before the local agencies figured out that they really should have rifles available instead of just handguns and shotguns.

But to quote a young Marine, "Dad it really should have taken only two rounds to end it". Watch the video of the North Hollywood shoot out and see if you don't agree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZg4mcYkIwU

The bank robbers literally walked around in the open quite a bit.

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

One thing for sure is you can't have too much 9mm ammo.

http://www.sgammo.com/catalog/pistol-ammo-sale/9mm-luger-ammo

 

[Mike J]

I pretty much agree with Welder. I own handguns chambered for 9mm, .40 S&W & .45 acp. I honestly couldn't care less what the FBI uses. They make their choices I make mine.

RE: The Miami Shootout. I have read about it several times. There were several serious screw ups that happened. I honestly believe the downfall of the FBI that day was their tactics. Two of the agents paid for it with their lives.