Does A 45 Colt = A 45 Long Colt?
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StanMemTn
Single-Sixer
Yes, when you hear people say "45 Long Colt," they really mean .45 Colt.
There is really no such cartridge as 45 Long Colt though, by this I mean you'll never find a firearm or box of ammunition labeled "45 Long Colt."
There is really no such cartridge as 45 Long Colt though, by this I mean you'll never find a firearm or box of ammunition labeled "45 Long Colt."
AKGrouch
Bearcat
I have also been just as guilty by using the "long Colt" term. Like said above, there is really no such thing. It's simply the 45 Colt.....a wonderful cartridge.
flatgate
Hawkeye
It all stems from the early days when there were two .45 Colt cartridges.
IIRC, the Schofield .45 required a shorter case, hence the "Long Colt" name for the regular sized cartridge we use today.
flatgate
IIRC, the Schofield .45 required a shorter case, hence the "Long Colt" name for the regular sized cartridge we use today.
flatgate
WESHOOT2
Hunter
StanMemTn":4ztnguvd said:
Somewhere amongst my massive quantities of printed materials I have pictures of ammo boxes from wayback marked "45 Long Colt".
Yes I do.....
......but I haven't run across them for some years. But I got them, actual pictures of boxes marked "45 Long Colt".
Old Judge Creek
Single-Sixer
flatgate":rw48256w said:
Yuppers, the Schofield was adopted by the US Army at the same time the Colt SAA was the official pistol, and was issued to the 9th and 10th Cavalry and Infantry (the Buffalo Soldiers). The S&W Schofield was the same caliber but had a shorter cylinder length, so while the short 45s would (still will) shoot perfectly well in the Colt, the Long Colt rounds were completely unusable in the Schofield.
Incidentally, I always like it when someone "corrects" my use of the term pistol when referring to revolvers. Revolvers were "pistols" longer than semi-automatic actions have been in existance. Just as "long colt" is (unofficially but very appropriately) correct for the 45 Colt round, so is "pistol" for any handgun. Just because words "evolve" and technology can alter their contemporary application, it doesn't change their original purpose and/or meanings.
Yeah..... I'm an antique too :lol:
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Old Judge Creek":1i1rpjjx said:flatgate":1i1rpjjx said:
Yuppers, the Schofield was adopted by the US Army at the same time the Colt SAA was the official pistol, and was issued to the 9th and 10th Cavalry and Infantry (the Buffalo Soldiers). The S&W Schofield was the same caliber but had a shorter cylinder length, so while the short 45s would (still will) shoot perfectly well in the Colt, the Long Colt rounds were completely unusable in the Schofield.
Incidentally, I always like it when someone "corrects" my use of the term pistol when referring to revolvers. Revolvers were "pistols" longer than semi-automatic actions have been in existance. Just as "long colt" is (unofficially but very appropriately) correct for the 45 Colt round, so is "pistol" for any handgun. Just because words "evolve" and technology can alter their contemporary application, it doesn't change their original purpose and/or meanings.
Yeah..... I'm an antique too :lol:
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Very well explained and said ! ! ! both 45 colt/ long colt and pistol/ revolver. The Judge has spoke.
Paul B
Hunter
WESHOOT2":uaemkakh said:
I don't doubt you. My Great-Uncle was a big fan of the .45 Long Colt and he had several boxes of ammo so marked. This was along time ago. I was about 11 years old at the time, I'm 72 now, andI not only saw the boxes but he let me shoot his nickle plated pearl handled 4.75" Colt single action. KNowing him, I seriously doubt Patton would have called him a New Orleans pimp. He would have wrapped Old Blood and Guts around a tree just for entertainment.
Unless someone can come up with picture of a box, or a box if one still exists, the issue will probably never be settled.
Paul B.
Thing is 'today' we can simply call them the .45 Schofield, the .45 Colt, and .45 ACP. There is no confusion. So '.45 Long Colt' should just disappear in the history files as a foot note as 'really' there never was one to begin with 
.. IMO ....
.. IMO ....Paul B
Hunter
And the name police strike again. :roll: What bloody difference does it make? :?: Obviously the name has been used at one time. The way I look at it if someone prefers .45 Long Colt, let it be. This is no different than the food police telling me I can't eat popcorn at a movie or have a pizza and a beer. Too darn much PC garbage in this country and it will be the ruination of us all. 
Paul B.
Paul B.
. Well, what difference does it make? First, this thread wouldn't exist if there wasn't some confusion . Point is, if you 'standardize' on terms then there is no confusion. It sure works in the engineering and software world that I work in . This has nothing to do with the PC garbage which is so prevalent in today's world. I am sick of that too..... .
flatgate
Hawkeye
Kanook":3g6zib6y said:
Hmm, well, yes, kinda. Perhaps Mr. Browning deemed it a Automatic Colt's Pistol round........
Me? I was shooting a slightly different .45 "Long" Colt on Sunday. 335 gr. Gas Checked .45 cal. projectiles at a Chrono'd 1572 fps. The brass is head stamped F-A .454 Casull but, it's really just a longer .45 Long Colt...
flatgate
COR
Blackhawk
Flatgate, that sounds great...A 45 Longer Colt. 454 can be so confusing.
Peacemaker
Bearcat
OK. To dispell any further or future confusion, let the following nomenclatures be standardized for the following calibers:
1. The .45ACP is now the .45 RSC (really short Colt)
2. The .45 Schofield is now the .45SC (short Colt)
3. The .45 Colt is now the .45LC (long Colt)
4. The .454Casul is now the .45RLC (really long Colt)
No more arguements. Now go outside and play nice.
1. The .45ACP is now the .45 RSC (really short Colt)
2. The .45 Schofield is now the .45SC (short Colt)
3. The .45 Colt is now the .45LC (long Colt)
4. The .454Casul is now the .45RLC (really long Colt)
No more arguements. Now go outside and play nice.
Lost Sheep
Single-Sixer
Peacemaker":2l1n0k3q said:
What about the .460 Smith & Wesson?
The arguments will never cease, sorry. Besides, Casull is spelled with two "L"s
Lost Sheep
63November
Single-Sixer
Kanook":1ldc7tjm said:
I think that's one of the reasons that some folks still like to use the extra term in the nomenclature,just as some people say 45 Colt Auto
Fishslayer
Single-Sixer
Kanook":3k6phnu4 said:
Well... THAT would be a .45 Automatic Colt Pistol...
...which is actually a semiautomatic and here we go again...
Bucks Owin
Hunter
Here's the straight skinny with photos by Jim Taylor. According to him. the Schofield had a slightly different rim diameter than the ".45 Gvmt" or "short colt": http://www.lasc.us/TaylorLongShort45Colt.htm
Bucks Owin
Hunter
Yep. And stretch the case a little more and voila....460 S&W mag. The oldest surviving centerfire pistola cartridge just keeps morphing along! :wink:flatgate":9qdxq7z3 said:Kanook":9qdxq7z3 said:Me? I was shooting a slightly different .45 "Long" Colt on Sunday. 335 gr. Gas Checked .45 cal. projectiles at a Chrono'd 1572 fps. The brass is head stamped F-A .454 Casull but, it's really just a longer .45 Long Colt...
flatgate
Driftwood Johnson
Blackhawk
Howdy
Here is a photo that may help this discussion along. Left to right the cartridges in the photo are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 ACP, and 45 Auto Rim.
Cartridge revolvers had been around as early as 1857, but Smith & Wesson controlled the Rollin White patent for revolvers with chambers bored all the way through for cartridges. That is why almost all the revolvers used during the War Between the States (1861-1865) were Cap and Ball revolvers, even though cartridge technology existed at this time. S&W guarded their patent fiercely, and no American firearms company could get away with producing a cartridge revolver while the White Patent was still in effect. S&W would sue the pants off of them.
Around 1872 the White patent expired, and other firearm companies were free to produce cartridge revolvers. At this time, the US Army was looking to replace the thousands of obsolete C&B revolvers it owned. Colt won the contract from the Army, and by 1892 had sold 37,000 revolvers to the Government. These revolvers eventually became known as the Single Action Army.
The original caliber was 45 Colt. Period. The Cartridge Over All Length was 1.625, with a case length of 1.285. The bullet was a soft lead, hollow based 250 grain inside lubed bullet. These first cartridges were copper cased, not brass, and they used a now obsolete type of priming called Benet priming. Benet primed cases had a greater case capacity than anything else since, including balloon head cases. These were probably the only 45 Colt cartridges that could truly hold 40 grains of FFg Black Powder.
By 1875, Smith & Wesson had decided they did not want to be left out of the lucrative Army contracts. S&W was not producing any 45 caliber revolvers at this time, their large #3 Frame revolvers were all 44 caliber, either 44 S&W American or 44 Russian. And neither of these cartridges were as long as a 45 Colt, the 44 Russian cartridge was only about 1.245 long Overall. S&W asked the Army if a 44 caliber revolver would be acceptable, but the Army was adamant in wanting their new cartridge revolvers to be 45 Caliber. Opening up the caliber from 44 to 45 did not present a problem for S&W, there was plenty of meat in the cylinder and barrel to allow this. But the frames of the S&W #3 revolvers were too short to house a cylinder long enough to accept the 45 Colt cartridge. So Smith applied to the Army, and got permission to supply a 45 caliber revolver to trials with a shorter 45 caliber cartridge that would fit in the shorter cylinders. These new 45 Caliber Smiths were dubbed the Schofield model after the Cavalry officer who suggested a new latch design that allowed a mounted soldier to open the revolver with one hand. The cartridge Over All Length was 1.430, with a 230 grain soft lead, hollow based bullet. The powder capacity in the new round was about 28 grains of FFg Black Powder. All S&W large caliber revolvers at this time were top break revolvers, employing an extractor star to extract and eject the cartridges, so the new round had a significantly larger diameter rim than the Colt round, about .520 in diameter, to allow the extractor something to grab. Current 45 Colt rims are only .512 in diameter, but early 45 Colt rims were even smaller.
The Army purchased 3000 Schofield revolvers in 1875.
The Schofield revolvers did not remain in government arsenals for very long. Although no case has ever been authenticated of the longer 45 Colt rounds being issued to a unit having the 45 Schofield revolvers, it has often been theorized that Murphy allowed this to happen, and the 45 Colt ammo would have been useless to the units with the S&W revolvers. In any case, by 1880 the Army declared the Schofield revolvers surplus, and sold them off to civilian dealers. Many had their barrels shortened to five inches, and Wells Fargo bought up a lot of these shortened Schofields.
Yes, there were indeed some cartridges produced that were labeled 45 Long Colt, however they are unusual. Mostly, the cartridge has always been known as 45 Colt. Yes, the Army was known to call the cartridge 45 Long Colt when both 45 caliber cartridges were still in inventory. However, not many gun store clerks are aware of this history, and when you ask for a box of 45 Colt, they will usually ask you if you mean 45 Long Colt because they want to make sure you don't want a box of 45ACP.
P.S. Here is a photo of a couple of old cartridges from my cartridge collection. The cartridge on the left is a 44 Colt, the one on the right is an old UMC 45 Colt. Note the tiny rim, only about .505 in diameter. That tiny rim is typical of older 45 Colt cartridges, and is one reason why 45 Colt was never chambered in rifles until the modern era. An extractor hook could never have gotten a grip on that rim.
And here is a photo of some very early copper cased, Benet primed cartridges. The one on the left is a 45 Colt, the other one is a 45 Schofield.
Here is a photo that may help this discussion along. Left to right the cartridges in the photo are 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 ACP, and 45 Auto Rim.
Cartridge revolvers had been around as early as 1857, but Smith & Wesson controlled the Rollin White patent for revolvers with chambers bored all the way through for cartridges. That is why almost all the revolvers used during the War Between the States (1861-1865) were Cap and Ball revolvers, even though cartridge technology existed at this time. S&W guarded their patent fiercely, and no American firearms company could get away with producing a cartridge revolver while the White Patent was still in effect. S&W would sue the pants off of them.
Around 1872 the White patent expired, and other firearm companies were free to produce cartridge revolvers. At this time, the US Army was looking to replace the thousands of obsolete C&B revolvers it owned. Colt won the contract from the Army, and by 1892 had sold 37,000 revolvers to the Government. These revolvers eventually became known as the Single Action Army.
The original caliber was 45 Colt. Period. The Cartridge Over All Length was 1.625, with a case length of 1.285. The bullet was a soft lead, hollow based 250 grain inside lubed bullet. These first cartridges were copper cased, not brass, and they used a now obsolete type of priming called Benet priming. Benet primed cases had a greater case capacity than anything else since, including balloon head cases. These were probably the only 45 Colt cartridges that could truly hold 40 grains of FFg Black Powder.
By 1875, Smith & Wesson had decided they did not want to be left out of the lucrative Army contracts. S&W was not producing any 45 caliber revolvers at this time, their large #3 Frame revolvers were all 44 caliber, either 44 S&W American or 44 Russian. And neither of these cartridges were as long as a 45 Colt, the 44 Russian cartridge was only about 1.245 long Overall. S&W asked the Army if a 44 caliber revolver would be acceptable, but the Army was adamant in wanting their new cartridge revolvers to be 45 Caliber. Opening up the caliber from 44 to 45 did not present a problem for S&W, there was plenty of meat in the cylinder and barrel to allow this. But the frames of the S&W #3 revolvers were too short to house a cylinder long enough to accept the 45 Colt cartridge. So Smith applied to the Army, and got permission to supply a 45 caliber revolver to trials with a shorter 45 caliber cartridge that would fit in the shorter cylinders. These new 45 Caliber Smiths were dubbed the Schofield model after the Cavalry officer who suggested a new latch design that allowed a mounted soldier to open the revolver with one hand. The cartridge Over All Length was 1.430, with a 230 grain soft lead, hollow based bullet. The powder capacity in the new round was about 28 grains of FFg Black Powder. All S&W large caliber revolvers at this time were top break revolvers, employing an extractor star to extract and eject the cartridges, so the new round had a significantly larger diameter rim than the Colt round, about .520 in diameter, to allow the extractor something to grab. Current 45 Colt rims are only .512 in diameter, but early 45 Colt rims were even smaller.
The Army purchased 3000 Schofield revolvers in 1875.
The Schofield revolvers did not remain in government arsenals for very long. Although no case has ever been authenticated of the longer 45 Colt rounds being issued to a unit having the 45 Schofield revolvers, it has often been theorized that Murphy allowed this to happen, and the 45 Colt ammo would have been useless to the units with the S&W revolvers. In any case, by 1880 the Army declared the Schofield revolvers surplus, and sold them off to civilian dealers. Many had their barrels shortened to five inches, and Wells Fargo bought up a lot of these shortened Schofields.
Yes, there were indeed some cartridges produced that were labeled 45 Long Colt, however they are unusual. Mostly, the cartridge has always been known as 45 Colt. Yes, the Army was known to call the cartridge 45 Long Colt when both 45 caliber cartridges were still in inventory. However, not many gun store clerks are aware of this history, and when you ask for a box of 45 Colt, they will usually ask you if you mean 45 Long Colt because they want to make sure you don't want a box of 45ACP.
P.S. Here is a photo of a couple of old cartridges from my cartridge collection. The cartridge on the left is a 44 Colt, the one on the right is an old UMC 45 Colt. Note the tiny rim, only about .505 in diameter. That tiny rim is typical of older 45 Colt cartridges, and is one reason why 45 Colt was never chambered in rifles until the modern era. An extractor hook could never have gotten a grip on that rim.
And here is a photo of some very early copper cased, Benet primed cartridges. The one on the left is a 45 Colt, the other one is a 45 Schofield.
.
If my poor memory serves me right...
Mike Venturino, who has written approximately a thousand magazine articles and four books on guns of the Old West, has published photos of factory ammo boxes from that era marked "45 Short Colt".
But my memory ain't no good no more.
Maybe some of y'all can make a trip to Montana, knock on his door, and order him to produce said boxes.
.
If my poor memory serves me right...
Mike Venturino, who has written approximately a thousand magazine articles and four books on guns of the Old West, has published photos of factory ammo boxes from that era marked "45 Short Colt".
But my memory ain't no good no more.
Maybe some of y'all can make a trip to Montana, knock on his door, and order him to produce said boxes.
.
