Defensive Firearms Training Class ... Help

[blume357]

Years ago someone here made the comment in a thread on concealed and open carry that if one was going to carry a gun then they should get training and keep this training up. I took this to heart and over the last 10 or 12 years have accumulated well over 200 hours of formal training which I have paid for personally. (I don't have the luxury of working for the government) ;-)

For years I flew out to Nevada and too the 4 day defensive handgun class along with a group of friends... I've even taken classes at the Sig Academy in N.H. Between Front Sight falling apart, at least for those that purchased a life membership, having a massive heart attack and Covid I was lacking in my required training for a year or two and so last year a friend down in Florida put together a private class for a few people done by a LEO firearms instructor. Because of some personal problems (marital problems) we can't used the same instructor and so my friend has talked me and another friend who also has gone to Front Sight with me as well as the Sig Academy and is a retired Marine Drill Instructor on top of that, to actually teach this year's class. So, my direction is now changing from student to instructor .... and yes, I plan to get formal training in that.

the reason for this post is I'm going to be asking questions and hoping to get some suggestion on the upcoming class. Right now I'm working on a sillabus for the class which is an edited version of the one from last year which is pretty much from some law enforcement training class.

I'm working on getting the various firearm 'ready' positions defined and in the course from last year the first problem I ran into was this defines and describes compressed ready (gun out of holster and held close to ones side) as well as two hand high position but then it mentioned the Sul position and there was no description of it. I guess all LEOs know what this is. I had to go online to discover what this was... pistol held close to body between chest and abdomen and pointed off to the side and down, but here is what gripes the bejeebers out of me... I've spent 30 minutes on line looking for what 'Sul' actually stands for and nowhere can I find it. Since it was developed in Brazil if might be an acronym from some Spanish....

These kind of things just bother me.... and I suspect I'm guilty of doing it too... using an abbreviation or acronym for certain gun terms... just assuming everybody knows what it means.

So, my first question... does anybody know what 'Sul' as a firearms position stands for?

 

[contender]

As an instructor,, I can appreciate the thought process you are going through. And one of the things I've done for decades as an instructor in firearms and SCUBA,, is to try & have the knowledge to answer questions from a student.
So,, your request is a very valid one.
I'll admit to NOT knowing what "Sul" stands for.
But one of my teaching points is this;

"I appreciate you asking the question. But I currently do not know the answer. But I will do all I can to find the answer for you by the next class."

 

[contender]

Well, I've just asked my LEO son what Sul stands for,, no idea. I have another person to ask.

PS; If I can offer any other help,, don't hesitate to ask me.

 

[gjgalligan]

Maybe this will help...

The firearm is then rested directly on top of the off hand with the trigger finger extended and pointing down the slide. The firearm hand rests against the officer's chest in the L-shaped pocket created by the extended off hand. The traditional Position Sul then has the firearm hand thumb extended up and touching the off hand thumb.


https://www.bluesheepdog.com/2013/01/28/position-sul-training-video/

 

[Cholo]

Sul means south in Portuguese, muzzle position down.

https://www.defensivecarry.com/threads/position-sul.61344/

 

[Bob Wright]

Maybe y'all may think I live in a "dream world" but I have never advocated the "ready" position nor any "present pistol" moves. So far as I'm concerned any draw-and-fire drill that involves "steps" is liable to get one killed graveyard dead.

I carry a Ruger Blackhawk, a .45 Colt. My drill is that when I draw my gun, the draw ends with a shot fired. I grasp the butt of the gun, thumb on the hammer spur, trigger finger near or on the trigger. I cock the hammer as I lift the gun and swing it up and press the trigger as the gun comes level.

I will not draw my gun, nor present it in any threatening way. There are two instances where I might be confronted by assailants: Refueling my vehicle at a convienence station, or on a city street in a "bump-and rob" situation.

Bob Wright

 

[kmoore]

Good on you for working hard to get the training right with the right lingo. I have never heard of "SUL" position. We always used "Low Ready" for that position. The actual position changed a little from revolvers to semi-autos due to possible slide clearance issues. The reasons to use it stay the same.
I think across the US there are slang or terms used that are different but mean or are used for the same thing. We used to use the terms "instinctive shooting" and changed that term to "flash sight" but it means the same.
Hints: Let's use this position as an example. Have a printed handout that describes the position, you explain it, show it on a slide and demonstrate it to the class. Your students will come from all levels of training, backgrounds and education. People learn differently. By including handouts, slides and demonstration you cover all those except having them do it. With firearms, having students do it is usually best at the range.

I see instructors fail at is the simple WHY. Some forget to teach the why. In this case, the instructor should start with " We do this next position for (reasons), it's named "low ready" then move on with the rest of the instruction.

My points are for the Basic level class. Advanced training, all that stuff is already drilled into the students.

Good Luck.

 

[Bob Wright]

Bob,
Just for the sake of argument, if you thought someone was in your home in the night are you going to strap on the gun belt or have it in
your hand as you go look and see?

Altogether different scenerio. They will see the muzzle of my .44 and must freeze instantly. There is no "ready" or "present."

(No misprint. Bedside is a .44 Special.)

Further, my gun ia held at my side, muzzle down, thumb and tringer fingger where God intended them to be. My left hand holds my flash light. In my house we will be at very close quarters, so my gun is kept close to me, not extended in any exaggerated position.

Bob Wright

 

[Mobuck]

FWIW, I've never had what would be called 'formal SD or defensive handgun' training. All was OJT with a vertical learning curve and 'offensive' in nature (meaning I was the aggressor). As such, rather than 'assessing the situation', I learned to look for targets. One must be careful with this as there's a difference between determining what/who the problem is and sorting out potential targets.
This is why I basically distrust the training programs hosted by military SF types.

 

[krw]

I believe the avg Self-Defense shooting is like 3-4ft. Drag out that Glock 48, point Center Body Mass and jerk trigger. You aint gonna take time to squeeze trigger in that situation. Come on down Arkansas. Bring couple 1/2’s MM and We’ll teach you how to shoot 4’ at CBM

 

[kmoore]

Maybe y'all may think I live in a "dream world" but I have never advocated the "ready" position nor any "present pistol" moves. So far as I'm concerned any draw-and-fire drill that involves "steps" is liable to get one killed graveyard dead.

I carry a Ruger Blackhawk, a .45 Colt. My drill is that when I draw my gun, the draw ends with a shot fired. I grasp the butt of the gun, thumb on the hammer spur, trigger finger near or on the trigger. I cock the hammer as I lift the gun and swing it up and press the trigger as the gun comes level.

I will not draw my gun, nor present it in any threatening way. There are two instances where I might be confronted by assailants: Refueling my vehicle at a convienence station, or on a city street in a "bump-and rob" situation.

Bob Wright

Your somewhat right. "Low ready" will be mostly used by cops. But, it should be taught to students at the basic level. It's for close quarters or when the gun is fired without raising it. It's also important to not holster a gun without double checking and scan the area before holstering. Just to make sure all threats have stopped. Then you go to low ready before holstering. Also, at the range when there is extended shooting with a pause. It's not proper to continue aiming, nor proper to holster. So, the shooter goes into the low ready. Sometimes moving with a gun in hand at low ready is the safe way to move and carry. If you are detaining someone and the gun is pointed/aimed but not needed to fire but you should be ready. Low ready is proper. (think of the thug is on the ground, cops on way) You cannot aim and hold a gun for extended time.
After all the safe ways to hold and carry a handgun are learned. Then it's one fluid movement when "fire/shoot" is needed. The very first time a student stands and fires should be done slowly with numbers given 1 for unholster, 2 aim, 3 fire. But all that is dropped once they demonstrate they are doing it correctly. I have been asked by experienced shooters at basic training why. My answer is we all need to learn to walk before we can run. Some are learning to walk today.

 

[epags]

OK, what I believe Blume was talking about is how the gun is carried relative to your body as you move through your house
in search of what went bump in the night.
Hence my comment about it being an offensive posture...you're moving or hunting someone.

Humm.....appears @kmoore was typing the same time I was.

One of my instructors had us (as a civilian not a LOE) assume the low ready position and scan for other threats after the immediate threat was 'removed'.
If there was the situation where we suspected an intruder was present, we were encouraged to retreat to a safe (if possible) location and call the police. In the meantime if the intruder approached our position we would then engage.....i.e. defend rather than hunt.

 

[Kevin]

Blume:
That’s very commendable on your part. I hope you post more of what you learn.

One time I started to take some lessons to shoot shotguns better. But didn’t like the instructor at all. Other than that I haven’t had any formal training.

 

[blume357]

Well, I've just asked my LEO son what Sul stands for,, no idea. I have another person to ask.

PS; If I can offer any other help,, don't hesitate to ask me.

I meant to mention that the 200+ hours of formal training also included probably 2 or 3 from Contender.

 

[contender]

No one type of instruction is perfect for everybody.

But Bob's comment about; "My drill is that when I draw my gun, the draw ends with a shot fired." doesn't cover all the potential scenarios.

Many will recall how I was in my vehicle, and saw a suspicious person approaching my truck & Penny's car. Out of precaution, and knowing the draw time is removed,, I pulled my gun from the holster I have mounted in my truck, and it was in my hand. It was not pointed at the suspicious person, but it was more readily available for the potential use if necessary.

Reaction is always slower than action. Reducing the reaction time may allow for a better outcome when we are the intended victim.

My point being,, there are many situations where having the handgun already in hand is much better than suddenly having the need and the draw is required. The draw takes time, and in a potential life threatening situation, split seconds can mean the difference in who survives.

Low ready, "Sul" or other methods are preferred over having to draw when many of these potential scenario's are presented.

 

[kmoore]

I believe the "SUL" position usually is different then the classic "low ready"
Again I've seen it more used for a group assault type of thing. The gun held tight against the chest with the
muzzle pointing almost vertically down and maybe 45 degrees toward the offhand side, able to "punch out" into
a firing position. Supposedly useful in a sorta butt to belly button position behind another person advancing
on something. Again more a group tactic position.

We trained and used the same low ready in the conga line on warrant entry. Old school and on TV was pointing the handgun muzzle up towards your own head. Can anyone imagine what can happen on an AD?
Real story: Nothing like giving an FBI agent an ass chewing when I turned back and seen a MP5 pointed at my head instead of the ground. Of course, corrective measure was with hand signs until the arrest was done. He worked with me on another bank robber arrest and did well with proper muzzle control.

 

[blume357]

Bob Wright is right in some ways, the chances are in most encounters you are going to just draw and fire. But here is part of what I finally got with these multiple long day classes.... the repetition of doing the same thing over and over builds a disciple that one can really understand. At Front Sight we were taught there were 4 separate stages to just drawing and taking aim. It took me three days to get just this. It took a second 4 day class for me to actually be what I consider good at it. Also in a multi-student class you need everyone on board and at the same place when commands are given.... this discipline keeps the firing line safe.

And Cholo; thanks for what I think is the correct answer to my question.... not being proficient in any language other than Southern....these things fly past me.

 

[The.Tumbleweed]

Years ago someone here made the comment in a thread on concealed and open carry that if one was going to carry a gun then they should get training and keep this training up. I took this to heart and over the last 10 or 12 years have accumulated well over 200 hours of formal training which I have paid for personally. (I don't have the luxury of working for the government) ;-)

For years I flew out to Nevada and too the 4 day defensive handgun class along with a group of friends... I've even taken classes at the Sig Academy in N.H. Between Front Sight falling apart, at least for those that purchased a life membership, having a massive heart attack and Covid I was lacking in my required training for a year or two and so last year a friend down in Florida put together a private class for a few people done by a LEO firearms instructor. Because of some personal problems (marital problems) we can't used the same instructor and so my friend has talked me and another friend who also has gone to Front Sight with me as well as the Sig Academy and is a retired Marine Drill Instructor on top of that, to actually teach this year's class. So, my direction is now changing from student to instructor .... and yes, I plan to get formal training in that.

the reason for this post is I'm going to be asking questions and hoping to get some suggestion on the upcoming class. Right now I'm working on a sillabus for the class which is an edited version of the one from last year which is pretty much from some law enforcement training class.

I'm working on getting the various firearm 'ready' positions defined and in the course from last year the first problem I ran into was this defines and describes compressed ready (gun out of holster and held close to ones side) as well as two hand high position but then it mentioned the Sul position and there was no description of it. I guess all LEOs know what this is. I had to go online to discover what this was... pistol held close to body between chest and abdomen and pointed off to the side and down, but here is what gripes the bejeebers out of me... I've spent 30 minutes on line looking for what 'Sul' actually stands for and nowhere can I find it. Since it was developed in Brazil if might be an acronym from some Spanish....

These kind of things just bother me.... and I suspect I'm guilty of doing it too... using an abbreviation or acronym for certain gun terms... just assuming everybody knows what it means.

So, my first question... does anybody know what 'Sul' as a firearms position stands for?

Sul enjoys a bit of notoriety recently as the latest tacticool lightpost for "what works the best" as a "ready position". Only it isn't a "ready position" – it's a movement position – or if you prefer – a carry position.
Google "Warlizard Tactical", and look for "Ready Position". I found it there.

 

[blume357]

The.Tumbleweed: yep... it is for moving as I understand it. But back to my one gripe the printed paperwork from last years class clearly explained the two positions we were going to be using then said that for demonstration purposes show the Sul position with absolutely no description or explanation of what it was... not being in law enforcement I guess, I had missed that somehow.

 

[larry8]

"Low Ready" is in my opinion one of the 2 ways the bad guy will kill you. With "Low Ready" you have to move from that position to the ready position (gun pointed at the bad guy) which takes time (that time the bad guy will use to shoot you).
The 2nd way is with your flash light mounted on or held at the gun. What do you think the bad guy is going to shoot at??? Think about it!!!!!!! OK he is going to shoot AT THE FLASH LIGHT. Which is either in front of you or very close to the in line of sight from the bad guy. So the bad guy shoots at the light and your dead. Of course this is MY opinion and I maybe full of it, so if I am please tell me a better way to do it.

 

[blume357]

the four day class at Front Sight used the low ready position and this was shown to be not desirable at least in the LEO class last year... too easy for someone who gets close to you and move the gun away from them or even take it away from you... that class promoted the compressed ready where you have the pistol tight against your side either point slightly down or straight ahead, we also practiced shooting from this position. As for the light on a gun I agree with you larry8 100% but for a different reason.... I think the average gun owner will be way too tempted to use the light on the gun as a flash light while scanning at night which is the absolute worst thing someone can do in a heightened situation.... I'm been flamed and criticized repeatedly on another forum for saying this and I understand that in theory LEO's are trained not to do this and can to a degree accept that... but I don't think the average gun owner with even minimum training is at the level needed for the discipline required with a night light on a gun. My actual thought if looking around in the dark for a spook is it might be better to not even have a light.

 

[Jeepnik]

Maybe because I was taught by a WWII combat vet my “technique” is old outdated and wouldn’t work in the post Vietnam world. It worked up until that point.

Step one, pick a spot that provides the best cover and concealment.

Step two, hunker down with weapon at the ready and let them come to you.

Step three, engage and destroy your enemy before they know where you are.

Note, there’s no wandering about with a flashlight so the enemy can see/hear you coming and use steps on through three against you.

Mind you, he taught that this “technique” works whether in Sherman tank waiting for a Panzer or a Thompson waiting for German infantry.

I’m quite certain I would fail every single pistol course given by today’s “experts”. You see it would take eons, combat time speaking, before I would engage and destroy the enemy. In fact, if the enemy never entered my sphere of influence they would just leave unmolested.

Yep, a well planned ambush, like the 30-30, just doesn’t work in these modern times.

 

[blume357]

Yep, every year at the East Coast Ruger Forum Gathering Contender sets up a combat course like he participates in with one of the competitions. To brag; I'm better at putting holes in the middle of the targets than him the only thing is it takes me three times as long to go through the course. I can stand at the ready all day long and draw, aim and fire at a still target 20 feet away and drill holes in center mass or even the head with ease ..... I know for a fact if that target is moving or I am it is a whole different world. 50 years ago I was probably the worst dove hunter out there... I could not wrap my head around leading the target and now that I think back I was probably also too slow even back then. Now 60 pounds later......

 

[kmoore]

Moving and shooting takes it up to a really different level in training. It can be done and should be practiced but at advanced training. Another notch up is shooting while moving and firing at a moving target. In a class it takes a ton of time as likely only 1 shooter can go through the course at a time. We did this one. On command to go, move left or right and forward to cover. As a target appeared down range moving across the range left to right or right to left engage it without stopping. Target would drop if hit center of mass. Once cover is reached use it to reload and fire at static targets. No round limit or timed. Most stop too shoot and get yelled at. We did that with handguns and shotguns. When I left carbines were getting moving and shooting involved.
Range safety problems are people tripping and moving with finger on trigger, some having ADs on the range. Most important is to teach how to walk smoothly vs running and holding gun on target. We taught that 1st by moving towards and backing up while shooting at stationary targets. Doubt your going to that level of training. But it can be done.

 

[contender]

Jeepnik makes a valid point for SOME types of potential armed encounters. The "wait & ambush" is still a very valid type of SD & such.
Sadly,, not always what's needed.

You are home, you have kids, you hear the kids screaming for help. You hear a thug in their room.

You are a parent picking up your kid at school. Your kid hasn't come out yet. You hear gunfire & see a thug shooting at kids. He's moving towards where your kid may be coming from.

You are at the local store, you have your family with you. You hear & then see a thug shooting at people, and you know your kid or wife or whomever is near the thug. You see the thug moving towards your family, yet he gets out of sight around a shelf.

My point is,,, SOMETIMES,,,,,, ambush tactics won't be the better option.

Blume has seen what I can do with a bit of movement & shooting, and at "speed." Yes,, he is correct,, his hits are quite good in the very center mass. But he's also a lot slower, and with less movement than what I apply.
To clarify one of his comments,, I don't set up a "combat course" I just have a USPSA stage set up. And not even a very technical one either. I keep them simpler for the Gathering folks.

USPSA style competition combines accuracy, speed, movement, reloads, and most importantly,, STRESSES SAFETY! Any movement done,, while NOT engaging targets is done without the finger in the trigger guard. You are allowed to move & engage targets at the same time. The muzzle is always pointed "downrange" and we have a "180 degree" rule. The muzzle is never supposed to point past the 180 degree line of the stage. And there are also rules about muzzles downward & upward. You can do so,, but it's stressed that if the muzzle is up, and a discharge happens,, the round leaves the range & a DQ happens. If you allow ANY part of your body to be ANYWHERE in front of a muzzle, DQ. I have seen several DQ's because a competitor drops a magazine, and while they do point the muzzle downrange towards a berm,, they reach for the magazine, and it's forward of the muzzle line. No, the muzzle isn't pointed at the body, but the hand is forward of the area in front of the muzzle.
I use USPSA competition to hone skills that allow a shooter to put themselves in conditions they normally do not practice much. Mandatory reloads, weak hand only shooting, unloaded starts, targets in positions that allow for movement by the shooter, moving targets, transition types of scenarios, (Paper to steel to paper to steel to paper to steel, etc.)
USPSA isn't perfect for all types of potential street encounters,, but it does allow a shooter to work on skills well beyond just standing at a table or on the line & punching holes in paper. And with the rules we are required to follow,, it's quite safe.

And with USPSA competition, you can get the occasional stage built similar to the style kmoore is discussing. We don't yell or anything at a shooter. You are allowed to stop & shoot, but your TIME will reflect this and affect the score.
If two shooters do the same course of fire,, say,, like Blume & I, and let's say both of us have the same exact scoring points on a target. The faster moving shooter will be the stage winner because his time is factored in the actual score. In USPSA,, this scoring is called "Hit Factor." And quite often,, a shooter can have fewer target points,, but a faster time,, and be the winner of the stage. Hit factor scoring is a method of judging overall performance.

 

[Jeepnik]

We respect need a sarcasm emoji.

 

[blume357]

Another thing that I noticed when we do Contender's course... and this has nothing to do with the training I originally talked about but a lot to do with the competition he is involved in.... just before he says he's ready and the buzzer goes off on the timer, he is picturing in his mind every move and shot he is going to make. I've watched him do this every time.

 

[Joe Chartreuse]

Like Bob, I have no real "ready" position. I am a cross draw, which replaces 3 moves of a standard draw with one. So I just keep my hand on the pistol. Since my arm is already almost straight it's one motion to draw and shoot. That's if I'm just doing a walk and check, or just being cautious. Of course, if I actually KNOW there is an intruder, or feel that I have to clear my house, I am in the "shoot" position. ;-)

 

[Mike J]

Blume I don't know that I have any particular expertise to offer above what has already been shared. I just hope your class goes well. I suspect you will learn from teaching it.

 

[warren5421]

Why would you move if it is only you or you and a partner. Call the cops they can bring lots of help. If kids or others are involved then you may need to move. Other than Uncle Sam having his own rules on what you need to do all classes I have take stresses stay put and call the cops!