Deer pistol cal. ???

[Dale53]

I hunted deer with a handgun for a number of years. Right up front, I consider a good .44 Magnum to be ideal deer medicine in the hands of a good pistol shooter at typical woods ranges (100 yards and under).

However, pistol rounds kill differently than rifle rounds do. I have had deer hit low and just behind the shoulder run 200 yards. I use a home cast Keith bullet (normally) and have never recovered a bullet (they ALWAYS pass through). However, they also ALWAYS leave a good blood trail and it doesn't take Daniel Boone to walk them up. I have shot a couple of deer through the neck (breaking the spine) and they FDD (fall down dead) at the shot. Only central nervous system shots will do that with the typical handgun.

If I am hunting in an area that it is necessary to drop the deer immediately, then a broadside shot through the shoulders will do that. If they are only 25 yards away, then a neck shot does it for me. Otherwise, I will shoot them low and behind the shoulder. On facing shots, I shoot low in the chest and the bullet still gives total penetration. They don't run far with that shot.

YMMV
Dale53

 

[Insert Name Here]

For 3leggeddog and Knuckles and others from Michigan like myself...

If you want to use a semi-auto handgun for deer hunting, you might want to check out page 26 of the 2009 Michigan Hunting and Trapping Guide. It says in regards to handguns that they, "...cannot exceed a maximum capacity of nine rounds in the barrel and magazine combined." I could be wrong, but I believe this means that if the pistol is ABLE to be loaded with more than nine rounds total then it is illegal to use in Michigan for deer hunting. I'm thinking just downloading your mags to eight rounds is not going to make you legal. Unfortunately this effectively eliminates the use of all Glock .40's and Springfield Armory XD-40's, unless you figure some way to "plug" the mags to an eight-round capacity. Or I guess you could leave your mags at home and use your Glock or XD as a single-shot to keep things legal. You'd best check this out with a DNR guy though because I'm not crystal clear on what that wording is intending, and I've never looked into it myself beyond reading the Hunting and Trapping Guide.

 

[MAC702]

Is it just for big game or does it also mean that you couldn't hunt squirrels with a Ruger Mark II pistol or Challenger or a 10-shot .22 LR revolver?

 

[Knuckles]

My suggestion would be to get the biggest pistol you can handle and shoot well. Reason being a couple of years ago my son killed a deer with his 44 mag. He shoots really good and placed the shot in a perfect killing place on the deer. His deer ran 50 yds. after the shot also he put another round into the deer as it passed under the stand. and it still ran another 25 yds. He & I both have a nice collection of handguns so I was picking at him and told him I wouldn't have that problem with the deer running off. Two weeks later I went to the same stand with my 500 S&W and at almost dark a deer came out within a few feet of where he shot his I shot the deer with the 500 I placed a 350 gr bullet in a perfect placed shot just behind the shoulder it went through and destroyed the other shoulder the bullet performance was picture perfect. My deer ran 50 yds before dying. The deer ran directly under my stand and was stumbling but running pretty good. The 500 energy is triple that of the 44 mag at the muzzle at 100 yds I was expecting the deer to fall over dead at the shot. It didn't happen. Both deer were shot at around 50 yds and ran close to the same distance before dying. Mine was a 1 shot deer his was a 2 shot deer. Deer dont move when I shoot them with a rifle. I was not impressed with the handgun deer hunting. This was 2 deer by 2 different shooters from the same stand with almost identical results using 2 different recommended cal's both with well placed shots. The pistol just doesnt kill them like I was expecting yes both deer died and were recovered but I am used to killing my deer where they stand instead of seeing them run after the shot. If I had shot my deer in the shoulder and hit heavy bone maybe it would have fell where it stood I don't know but I wasn't really impressed with the first handgun deer.

I had a fat young buck run 50 yrds with a .30-30 Winchester in his shoulder... through his heart... and was gonna keep going til i whacked him with another shot in the spine... you just never know. :?

 

[Knuckles]

Within 25 yards LOTS of handgun cartridges will work well, but some may work better depending on the age of your son and his handgun shooting proficiency.

If you don't need magnum power, blast and recoil, for no more end result effectiveness, then why have it? Certainly my first choice if I don't need magnum power for distance is a simple big bore like the 44 Special or 45 Colt. They are much easier to learn to shoot well without a lot of hand slap and blast.

A good 44Special load with a 240 gr LSWC at 900 fps will completely penetrate any eastern whitetail at that distance, or better. A 45 Colt loaded with a 282gr RCBS 45-270-SAA bullet is a tremendous penetrator at a leisurely 900fps and with its large meplat will really let the air out. Almost anyone can shoot that well in a decent handgun.

I can also vouch for the effectiveness of a 40S&W handloaded with a 175gr LSWC at 1000 fps. Why wouldn't that work at 25 - 30 yards? It will still penetrate an eastern whitetail completely, or far enough to ruin his day. Many 40S&W factory loads with JHPs may not penetrate sufficiently or cause a good wound channel, but a good LSWC certainly will.

Indeed... +1 :wink:

 

[DLB-NRAlife]

I've hunted deer with a .44 magnum in one form or the other for 30 years.Started out with single actions and moved on to double actions.I've taken 7 deer from 25 yds. to 80 yds.,all one shot kills.Most important aspect is shot placement.I curently hunt with a Ruger Super Redhawk with a Leopold 4x scope and I practice out to a 100 yard range.Bullet ranges are 210 Sierra JHP and Hornady 240 XTP's pushed with Hodgdon H110 powder.Good Hunting, Donnie

 

[Insert Name Here]

Is it just for big game or does it also mean that you couldn't hunt squirrels with a Ruger Mark II pistol or Challenger or a 10-shot .22 LR revolver?

The passage I quoted was from a paragraph that was titled: "All Firearm Deer Seasons-Shotgun Zone" (The shotgun zone in Michigan is roughly the lower half of the Lower Peninsula.) So the rule I mentioned just applies to that area. Probably should've made that clear in the first post. For the rifle zone, which includes the upper half of the Lower Peninsula as well as the entire Upper Peninsula, they do not specify any cartridge limits.

As far as your question about hunting small game, I couldn't find where they address cartridge limits for .22 LR pistols or revolvers so I don't know for sure. However, the guide does specify there's no limit on cartridge capacity for a .22 caliber rimfire RIFLE for game other than deer, so I imagine the firearms you inquired about would be fine. Check out www.michigan.gov/dnr for more info.

 

[s4s4u]

Since you like semi's, you could use the 10mm cartridge quite effectively (in a Glock or whatever); it is similar to the .41 Mag.
Sonnytoo

Oh stop! The 10mm doesn't get near the .41 Mag in performance, it is much closer to the .357

If you shoot at a deer with a 40 short and wimpy in MN you'd be breakin' the law. First rule of gunfight, bring 'nuff gun, same for hunting.

 

[Knuckles]

Since you like semi's, you could use the 10mm cartridge quite effectively (in a Glock or whatever); it is similar to the .41 Mag.
Sonnytoo

Oh stop! The 10mm doesn't get near the .41 Mag in performance, it is much closer to the .357

If you shoot at a deer with a 40 short and wimpy in MN you'd be breakin' the law. First rule of gunfight, bring 'nuff gun, same for hunting.

+1 I looked up the 40S&W and the 10mm... what I found was the Forty+p gives as much or more punch than most of the 10mm ammo... the only advantage was the 10mm's distance drop.

 

[Nard]

I think 44 magnum would be the way to go, as long as you can hit where you aim you'll be pleased with it. I used my .454 SRH to kill a small buck a few years back, he was about 35-40 yards when I dropped the hammer on him and he went 25 yards or so after taking a 300 grain soft point pushed by a max load of 2400 in the left shoulder. I shot another buck out of that same stand with a .458 Win Mag 350 grain soft point through the shoulder and he ran too, not far 20-30 yards until he ran out of gas. These deer were real spooky living next to a 4 lane interstate on one side and large sized crack town on the other they were hard to kill. I think when you shoot a deer all he knows to do is to run away from the sound, if he is not killed on the spot.

J.B.

 

[Uncle Howie]

If you shoot at a deer with a 40 short and wimpy in MN you'd be breakin' the law.

Not anymore... see page 57 of your 2009 MN Hunting regs. The caliber requirements have been simplified, with the onus on the hunter to make an appropriate caliber/bullet selection. :roll:

The main points relating to this discussion are now 1) centerfire, 2) .220 or larger, 3) single projectile of soft-point or or expanding bullet type.

Long story short, a .25ACP with JHP is now legal for taking big game in MN. :shock:

(Sorry for the hijack.)

 

[JJ_Miller_480]

s4s4u,
as you say the 10 mm ain't real hot, thats true as its loaded TODAY. But if you load it to original specs, or can locate original Norma ammo it is right on the heels of the 41 mag. The original Norma load ran a 200gn TC bullet between 1200 and 1250 fps. A 41 mag shoots a 210 gn at 1300 to 1350 fps, will a whitetail know the difference inside 30 yards ?...................................JJ

 

[s4s4u]

41 mag shoots a 210 gn at 1300 to 1350 fps

I can get a 210 moving along at nearly 1500 fps from my 41 and that does make a difference. I love the 10, but the 10 ain't never gonna be a 41.

 

[dougader]

41 mag shoots a 210 gn at 1300 to 1350 fps

I can get a 210 moving along at nearly 1500 fps from my 41 and that does make a difference. I love the 10, but the 10 ain't never gonna be a 41.

True enough, but a 10mm loaded with a good 180-200 grain slug will work fine on deer inside 50 yards. With my eyes, I wouldn't take the shot at more than 25-35 yards.

 

[s4s4u]

a 10mm loaded with a good 180-200 grain slug will work fine on deer inside 50 yards

Agree 100% ;-)

 

[Shoot44]

My own experience is with the 44 Mag. Years ago, the mid-80's, I guess, I was hunting with an Interarms Virginia Dragoon. I had it loaded with Hornady factory 240 gr JSP's. I shot a small buck with it and their was zero expansion, but total penetration. It took 2 hour of tracking to find that deer. I since have learned to use 200gr JHP's. With the increased velocity, there is more reliable expansion. Still, I limit my range to under 50 yds. This is from MY experience. Others, I'm sure have their own views.
Dave

+1!! My experience exactly. The first whitetail I shot with my 44 was using a 240 gr JSP (around 1150 fps.), and got 'through and through' penetration. Not much expansion or blood. Fortunately, I cut his heart in half, so he wasn't far down the trail.
I now shoot 200 grain SJHP's; (1500 fps). On the latest, the bullet was found under far side hide. Did NOT hit the heart, but he was DRT about 25 yards from where he was shot. Great bullet expansion, and massive internal damage to lungs, etc.

Agree with the other comments about caliber. I would feel comfortable using my 41 Mag also, and my 357 would surely do too, but with far less 'margin for error'. I like the 44 for that job the best; (and for hogs as well!)
As has also been said: whatever you choose, make sure you can HIT with it. If recoil is a problem, choose a smaller caliber, not a slower projectile! Just my $0.02 worth.

 

[falrifles]

I shot a large doe last fall perfectly behind the left fore leg from a tree stand at around 25 yards away, positioned 15 feet off the ground. Revolver used was Super Black Hawk Hunter with Burris 1.5X scope. I used WW 240 gr. factory JHP.

The doe did a "hop" when hit as if heart shot and ran 50 yards and piled up. Bullet passed through deer. .44 cal. hole. Bullet not recovered. Shot right through heart.

I too usually drop deer in their tracks with my .30-06.

Bill

 

[WyoGunner]

In Wyoming the Law states the Handgun must shoot a "commercially loaded cartridge" that produces 500 ft.-lbs. of energy at 100 yards. Sub .40 cal. revolver cartridges, except the .357 Max. just don't usually cut the mustard.

So, check your local laws and please choose a cartridge that's proper for the job.

JMHO,

flatgate

+1 on that. I really wanted to take an antelope with my GP, but I realized it was impossible to get the ft lbs.

 

[alukban]

Killing stuff is often only argued with the scalar metrics of energy or velocity. It needs to be a vector with a biological quality factor regarding what is hit - where the energy is placed and whether that energy is effective in biological destruction via loss of electrical signal, pressure loss, structural damage via mechanical breakage, chemical reaction or pressure wave. That is all animal/biology dependent so we usually end up removing that from the discussion because it is an unknown variable and we simply discuss energy, velocity and bullet mass or design.

The key to discussing energy and damage though is the actual amount of energy transfer and where. A very important thing to effectiveness is that it be a critically damped energy transfer - no energy retention of the projectile after the medium, total and complete energy dump. Complete bullet pass throughs only really stab the target and do not deliver energy dumps. The energy or velocity is carried away with the bullet. A hollow point that expends and stays in the game is total energy transfer. This is also why large caliber, heavy bullets going slow seem to work. Large meplats help slow the projectile down and stay in the animal. Staying in the animal equals energy transfer. Velocity going to zero in the animal is energy transfer. It is not the only important factor that is good for killing things. All the other animal and biology dependent aspect of killing still apply but this is important. Total energy transfer on an ankle just isn't going to do it. Put it in the boiler room and liquidate the innards. Minimal energy transfer but with proper shot placement in the CNS still works.

 

[ClintV]

Comparing any handgun to a bow in terms of killing power is an erroneous assumption, as both weapons kill by very different means. The bow and arrow kill by exanguination and pneumothorax, the bullet kills by shock and to a much lesser, secondary degree, exanguination and pneumothorax. There is really not much energy or velocity required to completely penetrate a deer's chest cavity with a sharp broadhead, causing rapid and extensive blood loss and collapse of the lungs, and a quick death. A bullet will theoretically do the same thing, however the difference between a 1" hole caused by a sharp blade, and a sub half inch hole caused by a blunt bullet is obvious. Would you rather be stabbed with a pencil or a double (or triple, quad) edged blade?
The bullet must count on shock to the central nervous system to some degree, to be effective. A big hard cast bullet will open up a half inch hole, but there is also the effects of shock and the resultant crush cavity on the animal's central nervous system.....the arrow does not impact the CNS unless the spinal column is impacted.

That said, I have killed deer with a .44 mag, 7-30 waters, and .357 Herrett, and hogs with a .357, 7-30 waters, and .357 Herrett. With the exception of the hog shot with the .357 (intentionally head shot while hunting with hounds) all of the above resulted in the animal running a short ways when shot through the chest cavity, tight behind the shoulder broadside. All of the above calibers are considered more than adequate for whitetailed deer, but none of them have proven to be a "drop them in their tracks" option unless heavy bone/CNS was hit.
I use a .44 Bisley for most of my dedicated handgun hunting now, as I've found it to be a good compromise between portability, shootability, power, accuracy, and having a quick follow up shot if needed.

Take this information/opinion for what it is worth. I have a rather limited experiance with handgun hunting, having taken a half dozen deer and an equal number of hogs with a handgun. I've taken a greater number with a recurve/long bow, there is no comparioson between the two in my experiance. A poor shot with either will result in a long trail and possibly a lost animal, a good shot will be meat in the cooler. But the two weapons kill by different means altogether, we shouldn't be using them for comparison when discussing the lethality of any bullet.