comparison... P90 vs a 1911 and others

[jrc270]

I had posted this reply on another thread but thought others may be interested... Although, they are now discontinued, the article tends to dispell many of the clunky, huge, tales of the P90...

The article compares a P90 to a 1911. You have always heard how a 1911 is so thin, and how bulky a P90 is....

All I can say is... read the following:

http://www.realguns.com/archives/182.htm

If the link does not work... google the following, and you should get the article: Ruger's P90, No Space Between the "P" and the "9"

There is also a table included that shows dimensions of the P90 compared to a CZ97, Glock 21, and SIG 220... the actual measurements will surprise you.

 

[Rat76]

Good read. Thanks.

 

[revhigh]

Although, they are now discontinued, the article tends to dispell many of the clunky, huge, tales of the P90...

The article compares a P90 to a 1911. You have always heard how a 1911 is so thin, and how bulky a P90 is.....

Simply put .... that review .... and I read every single word of it, was massively biased TOWARD the P90. The outcome in his mind was already made up.

The reviewer states .... "The low cost M1911, pictured upper left, is a good shooter, but only after several hundreds of dollars in parts changes and countless hours spent parts fitting."

That is just crap .... a 1911 needs nowhere near 'several hundreds of dollars' OR 'countless hours spent parts fitting'.

A standard Springfield MilSpec, Para Combat Expert, or decent RIA is in the same price range as the P90 at street prices, and they sure as hell don't need .... 'several hundreds of dollars in parts changes and countless hours spent parts fitting'.

The guy is a jackwagon who clearly had his mind made up what the outcome was going to be prior to putting a pen to paper.

If you've ever held a 1911 and a P90 back to back, you'd see how BIG those 'small dimensional differences' are.

If you're looking for a review that would reinforce a decision to buy a P90 over a 1911 ... then you found it ... buy a P90 and be happy, but in the real world, the two guns don't compare. If for no other reason than they're TOTALLY different actions. There is NO WAY that someone who wanted a SA 1911 would buy a P90 .... that notion would dies as soon as they touched the trigger .....

I'd also like to see a stock P90 with a 4 pound trigger pull ... well ... maybe after the three quarter inch of sloppy, gritty take up, it may be near there ....
a 1911 is a 1911 .... never to be remotely compared to a P90, except in the size of the pill that comes out the front.

I'm not bashing the P90 either ... I really like them and think they're the best centerfire semiauto Ruger ever made for accuracy, but the trigger alone puts a KP90 in a class that can't even be compared to a 1911. Also, to say that the P90's trigger is better than a Sig 220's, which is widely known to have one of the best SA triggers on amy SA/DA gun is either saying he doesn't know what he's talking about, OR he got a REALLY bad Sig P220.

Oh yeah .... and ANY gun that can't hold 2.5 inches 'pretty easily' at TEN YARDS should be thrown in the trash. That is certainly no great accomplishment, but the reviewer acts as if it is. That should tell you something right there.

It's also interesting that the 'unidentified' 1911 in the top pics is mentioned as a 'pretty good shooter', but the gun that he breaks down in the lower pictures
is a Colt Gold Cup. Why not list the 'pretty good shooter' and break THAT gun down ? My guess is that the 'pretty good shooter' was a highly modified big buck gun, and that he wanted to imply that the P90 compares, but didn't want to list the gun, since it would have been obviously apples and oranges to anybody who knows 1911's.

REV

 

[jrc270]

revhigh... I agree with your response about a biased review.

The main reason I posted was to show that the physical dimensions of the P90 vs other 45's are not as diverse as many are led to believe.

I had a Kimber 1911 in the past (Stainless II) and liked it as I do the P90. It was extremely accurate, but unfortunately did not like hollow point ammo or a magazine greater than 7 rounds... another story...

The P90 (that I have)... as many have said in the past, feeds, shoots, and ejects everything I have ever put in it. And it's size... very close to the 1911's, SIGs, and other guns compared.

thanks for the feedback

 

[revhigh]

And it's size... very close to the 1911's, SIGs, and other guns compared.

Although the dimensional numbers 'appear' close, the ergonomics are considerably different, don't you agree ? When it comes to guns, some dimensionally larger guns feel smaller, and some smaller guns feel large. I owned a P89 and a P91, and although I didn't like their accuracy, they felt OK in my hands with Hogue finger groove grips. Compared to a 1911's feel .... well .... there's just no comparison IMO, and I have a BUNCH of 1911's.

I don't understand why somewhere in that article the reviewer didn't mention that he was comparing apples to oranges. The article should have been between the P90 and the P220 and CZ97 .... NOT against a 1911. Kinda makes you think the reviewer just doesn't like 1911's, and wanted to get a dig in. :D

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[Pinecone]

+ 1 With Rev's analysis of the article. Very good overview. Anyone who has followed gun writers over the years must look at every article they put out with "tongue-in-cheek". Many of them are extremely biased, among the very few that actually are informative and unbiased!............Dick :wink:

 

[pisgah]

The P90 is a fine gun, but even though the "numbers" may be close, a side-by-side comparison will quickly reveal that the 1911 is a significantly slimmer, more compact gun.

 

[Al James]

Simply put .... that review .... and I read every single word of it, was massively biased TOWARD the P90. The outcome in his mind was already made up.

The guy is a jackwagon who clearly had his mind made up what the outcome was going to be prior to putting a pen to paper.

REV

Ah Rev, you're always good for a laugh. Ironically Ive always thought these same things about you before you put your fingers to the keyboard. :lol:

I think there are a few reasons the reviewer included a 1911 in the discussion. The popular opinion that the P90 is chunky while the 1911 is thought of as slim for beginners. Also while YOU say they should never be compared, lets take a closer look:

Glock 21-striker fired[dao] FULL SIZE 45ACP
CZ97BD-hammer fired, DA/SA, Decocker FULL SIZE 45ACP
Sig 220-hammer fired, DA/SA, Decocker FULL SIZE 45ACP
1911-hammer fired, SA, Manual Safety FULL SIZE 45ACP

Only the Sig and CZ share operating systems yet I didnt hear you raving about how the Glock should never be compared to a P90. While they all operate differently-They are all FULL SIZE 45ACPs.

I also believe the authors intent in mentioning the inexpensive 1911 models was not to say the P90 is a better gun than a 1911-but instead that you cant buy a perfectly functioning, accurate 1911 for anywhere near the cost of a P90. And lets face it RIA, MILSPEC Springfields, etc are not what made the 1911 famous or gained it any great 100 year old reputations. IMO a cheap 1911 cannot compare to a Ruger P90 in many ways.

Im sure that the reviewer understands the differences of the operating systems. Note that he did not list a double action trigger pull weight for the Glock. He also states clearly that "The pull is not as clean as my 1911's, but much better than any SIG's or S&W pistols I own that are of a similar double/single action design. " So it doesnt sound like a guy who could only afford a Ruger so he wrote a review to stroke his own cheap ego. Perhaps the Gold Cup is his as well as is the RIA. Colt Gold Cups tend to be more photogenic.

The review IMO clearly states the facts. The P90 is hands down the best value in a Full size 45. It is accurate, stone reliable/durable. Sure $1000 dollar 1911's are accurate, have great triggers, etc- but they are still 1000 bucks. And based on my own experience they may or may not run perfectly out of the box. A Ruger can be had new for around $400 and $325 used in my area. I have worked in Retail Gun Shops for years and can not recall 1 [one] P series being brought back in because it "didn't work". I cannot say the same for some other far more costly designs. I just went to the LGS and Para GI experts are $599. I know, I know, the Paras ONLY 50% more REV but lets be realistic. You're so quick to call BS on this guy when I think it was just him stating the facts as he saw them. Sound familiar?

 

[revhigh]

I just went to the LGS and Para GI experts are $599.

The P90 is hands down the best value in a Full size 45

Only the Sig and CZ share operating systems yet I didnt hear you raving about how the Glock should never be compared to a P90. While they all operate differently-They are all FULL SIZE 45ACPs.

you cant buy a perfectly functioning, accurate 1911 for anywhere near the cost of a P90.

You need to find a new gun store Al ....

I stand by my comments, and the reviewer didn't just 'mention' or 'include' a 1911 in the review, as you imply .... it was pitted against the P90 ... as if they are comparable. The other, far more comparable guns were merely mentioned, and had their specs listed. Also, who said the top gun was an RIA ... if it is, and you could tell ... your eyes are far better than mine.

I've seen lots (every one as a matter of fact) of base model Springfields and RIA's run just fine right out of the box without spending a dime on extra stuff or a minute on extra hand fitting. Right at (or very close to) the price of the P90 new.

The P90's a good gun, but not at all comparable to a 1911. Kind of like comparing a Volkswagen TDI to a Mazerati .... they're BOTH CARS ....

As to the P90 being the 'best value hands down in a 45' .... I guess that depends on whose hand is 'down' .... :D

I don't think I 'raved' about any of the guns mentioned .... did I ? I commented on the review. If the sun was out and the sky was blue, but Ruger said it was green .... I'm pretty sure you'd go with green ....

"You cant buy a perfectly functioning, accurate 1911 for anywhere near the cost of a P90" .... HOGWASH .....

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[GDSimms]

It was a final farewell to a great gun! A lot of people knocked the p90 while comparing it to more expensive guns! You pulled the trigger and it went bang and the price was right!

 

[revhigh]

It was a final farewell to a great gun! A lot of people knocked the p90 while comparing it to more expensive guns! You pulled the trigger and it went bang and the price was right!

And it was very accurate with the aftermarket barrel that Ruger supplied it with. I think it was a Bar-Sto .... the only one of the P-series guns that Ruger semi-'accurized' ....

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[Al James]

You need to find a new gun store Al ....

"You cant buy a perfectly functioning, accurate 1911 for anywhere near the cost of a P90" .... HOGWASH .....

REV

As per our several conversations regarding pricing: Go to Gun Broker and search completed auctions for two things- P90 and 1911. Sort the results by number of bids. Take note of the no Reserve auctions that have sold, not reserve auctions that were not meet/sold. Are 1911's usually ever under 400? Lets say they were both 325 used- Would you rather have a 1911a1 made in the phillipines or a P90? Sounds like your mind is already made up.

Rev, You are the same guy who says that Ruger P series are 200-225[tops] in your area. So you can buy perfectly functioning, accrurate 1911's for anywhere near the cost of a P90? I know better.

 

[revhigh]

Oh ! I forgot ! That article was discussing USED P90's versus new loaded 1911's ... right Al ?

A P90 is around $450-500 new .... so are several RIA 1911's, and a Springfield GI is about $525 ... the Paras can be bought for high $400's .... close to the same prices.

Don't play rock bottom pricing games about used guns with me. YOU"RE the one who said how much the P-series guns are worth, and go for, but when I use YOUR prices you call foul. Compare street price to street price, new to new, and so on.

They (the P-series guns) DO go for that much in my area .... so I guess now you want to compare a $200 used gun with a new Les Baer at $2K. WOW !! The P90 is a GREAT VALUE then.

So far you're the only one in this thread that disagrees with my assessment of the review ... even the OP agreed.

Take it easy. :D

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[revhigh]

I can document my assertions .... can you ??? :D


P90

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=212355032
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=212379111
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=212730140

RIA

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=213246828
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=213295607
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=213310240
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/411539728

Para

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=213266832
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=212419886
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=213271941

Springfield

http://www.ozarkguns.com/Springfield%20GI/milspec.htm
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_24/products_id/32588
http://www.gunsamerica.com/919189042/Guns/Pistols/Springfield-Armory-Pistols/1911-Type/SPRINGFIELD_ARMORY_PARKERIZED_GI_1911_45ACP_PW9108LP_NEW.htm
http://www.impactguns.com/store/706397866655.html



Now .... are these guns in the same price range ?? .... or not ?? And they don't need HUNDREDS of dollars in extra parts OR COUNTLESS hours of hand tuning to run right .... right out of the box. And you know they don't. You're trying to inflate the prices of base 1911's to make the P90 look like more of a 'value' than it is.

If someone wants a P90 because of it's DA/SA mode, or they want a decocker ... fine .... the P90's a good gun. But don't try to make it seem like it's the only answer to a low-cost 45ACP 'hands down' .... because it isn't. There are plenty of answers to that question if you're willing to remove your Ruger rose colored glasses.

REV

 

[Al James]

Blah, Blah. There is both new and used on Gunbroker so you can compare both. Good 1911's are not 300 dollars. New or Used. Period. That was my point. You have repeated several times that Ruger P series pistols are 225 in Gun Stores in your area. So when you make the lame comment "HOGWASH" regarding my saying that you cant buy a accurate, reliable for anywhere close to a P90, that is in fact HOGPOOP.

You never did answer my question-can you buy a used 1911 for $225 that is any good?

You're right and everyone agrees with you. P series suck. I think I will sell all of my Ruger pistols so that I can afford to buy something worth having. Oh nevermind I can just sell one and get a great imported 1911 for the same price.

Ive vowed to not reply to your posts so many times but for some reason I end up doing it again and again. You just say some idiotic stuff that's stewed in arrogance. You contradict yourself constantly, talk down to other members/posters and tell everyone what xyz brand of pistol they should own. On a RUGER forum. As Ive said before why do you like to hang out and comment [almost never positive] on a Ruger semi auto forum? You dont own any right? You supposedly owned 2 that shot 10" groups at 10 yards- years ago.

So you are the go to, resident P series expert.

Nice links:

I'LL TYPE SLOWER.....COMPLETED AUCTIONS REV. NO RESERVE COMPLETED AUCTIONS SHOW ACTUAL SELLING PRICE NOT SOME AUTO LISTING BIG BOX STORES THAT LIST RUGERS AT MSRP. REMEMBER:

"Don't play rock bottom pricing games about used guns with me. YOU"RE the one who said how much the P-series guns are worth, and go for, but when I use YOUR prices you call foul. Compare street price to street price, new to new, and so on. "

 

[revhigh]

Every one of my links has documented Buy it now pricing, which indicates new to new, apples to apples. I don't make parameters up when discussing like items. If you want to that's fine.

REV

 

[Al James]

New to New, Used to Used, Rugers sell for less than Quality 1911 pistols. Period. Rev, 400 vs 500 is a 25% increase in cost. And again, are RIA pistols quality guns?

 

[revhigh]

Blah, Blah.

Good argument ... very convincing !!! I guess you learned that in your many years in a gun shop. :D

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[revhigh]

New to New, Used to Used, Rugers sell for less than Quality 1911 pistols. Period. Rev, 400 vs 500 is a 25% increase in cost. And again, are RIA pistols quality guns?

Show me documented $400 NEW P90's ....

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[Snake45]

The P90 always reminded me, for some reason, of the old Ideal toy Man from UNCLE guns from my childhood....

 

[revhigh]

And again, are RIA pistols quality guns?

Absolutely .... they're a little rougher than Springfields and a lot rougher than Colts, but they get the job done .... and well. Lots of members here have them and really like them.

I own lots of 1911's, but I'm not a 1911 snob, telling people you need to spend $1000 to get a 1911 that runs, because you don't. My advice is ALWAYS to buy a lower end 1911, shoot it, and SLOWLY let it evolve as they evolve in 1911 shooting. My $400 Springfield shoots almost as good as my Colt Gold Cups .... of course I DID put a trigger job on it and a few goodies, but I didn't HAVE to do that ... I WANTED to do it .... simply because I won't modify any of my Colts.

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[Al James]

COMPLETED AUCTIONS:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=205594967
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=212080962

 

[revhigh]

The P90 always reminded me, for some reason, of the old Ideal toy Man from UNCLE guns from my childhood....

Good looking gun Snake .... send it to Ruger and maybe that will be their next release ! :D

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[Al James]

Nice shooting with those A1 sights Rev, espeically for 15+ yards! See to me a stripped down repro 1911A1 IS worth 500. And they are pretty stripped. That's exactly why I think 300-400 [New or Used] for a P90 is such a good value.

 

[Snake45]

Good looking gun Snake .... send it to Ruger and maybe that will be their next release ! :D

REV

Not mine, not my pic--I just swiped it off the Net. Even as a kid I didn't want anything to do with that ugly POS. Why couldn't they have given us an authentic UNCLE P.38? :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

 

[revhigh]

COMPLETED AUCTIONS:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=205594967
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=212080962

Those are pretty cheap prices Al !!

If that's all they (P90's) go for brand new, then the only 1911's that would be in that price range would be the RIA's, which, as I said ... are fine, basic, if a little rough, guns. I've never seen one that didn't run, and I've never known anyone that wasn't pleased as punch with theirs. Still kind of apples to oranges though, but I do see your point if they're THAT cheap brand new. :D

That Springfield GI is one of my most prized 1911's, just becuase it WAS so inexpensive. I thought many times about replacing the sights, but to have the front milled, and then buy the sights would be close to $125 .... A tough bill to pay for a $400 gun, especially when it shoots as it does right now. The mag well, laser etched grips, and high speed target trigger really make the gun. I don't generally 'customize' guns, and I never change a Colt from factory, but I wanted to hack around with a 1911 and a forum member had that one for sale. I'm really glad I bought it !

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[revhigh]

Here's one you might like Al ! These were shot after I hadnn't been shooting for a while (3 or 4 weeks).... My first 10 shots !! Needless to say it went downhill from there, which is why I saved that target to take a pic of.

They're about 1.5 inch CTC groups at 50 feet (the dots are 3/4 inch) ... Gold Cups can make ANYBODY look good. :D

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[Al James]

Blah, Blah.

Good argument ... very convincing !!! I guess you learned that in your many years in a gun shop. :D

REV

Funny you should mention it....I did! There's not quite as many idiots in public as there are on the internet, but there not too uncommon in the flesh. Sometimes you just get tired of hearing about 1" groups at 400 yards-with their sporter, marine sniping, my guns worth, those guns suck, your prices are too high,etc. If you didn't get to the blah blah moments with certain people you just aren't paying attention.

I do get amusement from your mocking of my "many years" working behind a gun counter. I guess if I was an idiot I wouldn't have learned anything from my personal experiences while transferring 1000's of guns through an A&D log. Remember Rev, when you sell a lot of guns [and you are the one signing repair guns back into your logs] you quickly learn which guns have issues and which do not. Regardless of price or brand preference the facts are the facts. Having to send guns back, at a minimum wastes employee time and can potentially reduce company profits significantly. So again coming from a management prospective it is important to sell solid reliable guns in order to maintain a profitable business. When companies cant seem to put out solid reliable equipment they get removed from inventory until someone can prove me otherwise. I don't mention my experience very often here or anywhere for that matter unless its relevant to the discussion. I feel that I did learn how to deal with the blah blah customers quite well in the gun business....dont. Thanks,

 

[BulkAmmo]

I do think it is fair to compare the P90 to the 1911. After reading the article I think the writer was looking for a reason to love the P90 vs taking an objective view. Now we all have biases and that's fine. While I like the P90 I don't think it's as good a pistol as a RIA or SA Mil Spec. Both are going to price around the same though.

It is interesting how little a difference in size is necessary for you to notice such a big difference. Similar to how very small increases in weight are very noticeable.

 

[revhigh]

After reading the article I think the writer was looking for a reason to love the P90 vs taking an objective view.

Clearly .....

REV