Chronograph recommendations

[Clovishound]

I am thinking about getting my shooting buddy a chronograph for Christmas. If I have to buy the pricier models, I will have to look for something else.

I see the Chrony F-1 is available at a price I can afford. Anybody have any feedback on them? The Amazon feedback was all good for the Chrony, although there were only a few. Other reccomendations?

I might pull a fast one and ask him for advice on getting one for myself, and see what he says.

 

[Rclark]

I've had nothing but good luck with mine. Nice and compact. Use a camera tripod for height adjustment. One of the club members brought out his chronograph (different brand) and we shot over both at the same time. Yep, the F1 was in agreement within a few fps.... Happy with it. Was just out with it last weekend for another 100 rounds down range. Worked flawlessly. No fancy bells or whistles. Just write down the numbers after every shot. I then go home and put the numbers into a spreadsheet for analysis (for AVG/SD/ES). Works great for me!

 

[rkrcpa]

I've had nothing but good luck with mine. Nice and compact. Use a camera tripod for height adjustment. One of the club members brought out his chronograph (different brand) and we shot over both at the same time. Yep, the F1 was in agreement within a few fps.... Happy with it. Was just out with it last weekend for another 100 rounds down range. Worked flawlessly. No fancy bells or whistles. Just write down the numbers after every shot. I then go home and put the numbers into a spreadsheet for analysis (for AVG/SD/ES). Works great for me!

+1

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I recently purchased the Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital Chronograph on sale at MIdway and I am very pleased. They have a less expensive model called the 'pal' but you can't add a Digital Remote Control to that one. I have found at 10' the display is easy enough to read that I don't need the remote, although if you want to start a new string you have to go punch the button on the display and if at a public range you would have to wait for 'cold' to do that.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/852429/competition-electronics-prochrono-digital-chronograph

 

[Clovishound]

Thanks for the replies.

While I have your attention, let me ask this:

How useful do you find a chronograph to be? It seems like the next logical step my buddy and I should be taking, but it seems like many experienced reloaders don't use them.

 

[WESHOOT2]

I most highly recommend buying a product with brains separate from the parts you'll shoot.

A chronograph, used properly, helps make safe ammo, AND removes guessing.

I understand the Oehler is once again available.....


(I use a Pact One.)

 

[DeletedMember275]

I most highly recommend buying a product with brains separate from the parts you'll shoot.

A chronograph, used properly, helps make safe ammo, AND removes guessing.

I understand the Oehler is once again available.....


(I use a Pact One.)

+1; it's not 'if' you'll shoot your chronograph, it's 'when.' I chose the CED Millennium 2 for this reason and others. The Oehler is the gold standard of chronographs. While more expensive than others, it's never a mistake to buy quality.

 

[Twoboxer]

A chronograph will detect reloading variations, errors, and approaching danger that could likely go unnoticed, or be attributed to some other factor than the real cause.

Frankly, I'd say the most important feature (after reasonable accuracy) is to separate the brains from the part that you will shoot "through", especially if pistols are part of the equation lol.

When on a budget, consider that most of the other features don't do anything you can't replace with a pencil and paper.

 

[Clovishound]

When on a budget, consider that most of the other features don't do anything you can't replace with a pencil and paper.

So, I guess I should get him a couple pads of paper, and a box of pencils to go along with the "budget" chronograph. :roll:

Yeah, I also noticed that the Chrony's can be upgraded with accessories to turn them into the higher priced models.

 

[Rclark]

How do you 'shoot' the chronograph? I always shoot revolvers/pistols/rifle from a bench rest with mine. Before any shoot is taken, the chronograph is carefully situated between the target and the bench (takes a bit of walking back and forth to finally be 'set') . Not saying it 'could' happen but seems very unlikely. Plus shooting from rest you are testing for 'accuracy' of the load as well.

So, I guess I should get him a couple pads of paper, and a box of pencils to go along with the "budget" chronograph

Yep. Course you only need one pen or pencil ... Sometimes the simplest ways are best... and the cheapest.

 

[wizofwas]

I have a Chrony also. I got a Chrony Master because I wanted the readout on the bench where I could see it easier. It works fine with no problems yet.

I wanted a chronograph because I wanted to know what my loads were really shooting at and can adjust them from there. They really are a must for new reloaders and even people that have been reloading for years that are working up new loads. Just my $0.02.

 

[Clovishound]

Yep. Course you only need one pen or pencil ... Sometimes the simplest ways are best... and the cheapest.

Well, I might cheap out on a $100 chronograph for a Christmas present, but I wouldn't cheap out on a $1 box of pencils to go along with the gift. What kind of friend do you think I am? Besides, I find that pencils grow legs.

In all seriousness, if I do get him the F1, I think I will include a pad of paper and some pencils, as a gag. He would enjoy that. In fact, I might even label them as the data accessory pack.

 

[paul105]

I have a Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital -- excellent piece of equipment. My CE ProChrono is the other chronograph RClark mentioned above (one behind the other test).

I've had Chrony's since they first came out. Had one that just wouldn't work more than half the time (no readings, false readings). I even sent it back to the factory for eval/repair. When it came back it still didn't work. I put it out of it's misery with one carefully placed .45 Colt slug in the middle of the LED.

How do you 'shoot' the chronograph? I always shoot revolvers/pistols/rifle from a bench rest with mine. Before any shoot is taken, the chronograph is carefully situated between the target and the bench (takes a bit of walking back and forth to finally be 'set') . Not saying it 'could' happen but seems very unlikely. Plus shooting from rest you are testing for 'accuracy' of the load as well.

I have unintentionally shot three or four chronographs over the last 30 years or so. All of these were with scoped rifles and in one case by someone else. ARs are particularly prone to this due to the high scope to bore relationship. Most recently, I had some work done on a Browning A-Bolt rifle. Unknown to me, the gunsmith had to remove the scope/rings. When rassembled the front ring was was reversed with the rear ring causing the gun to shoot WAY low.

If you use a chronograph enough with varied platforms, you will put a bullet in one.

Paul

 

[Rclark]

... you will put a bullet in one.

I'll try not to off course Understood. Can see how that would happen with a rifle (or on purpose LOL) !

 

[wizofwas]

When using a scope, I get the chrony all set up in place and then double check it by sighting through or along the barrel. So far no problems yet doing it that way.

 

[Clovishound]

Well, I talked with my buddy today when we met at the range. I asked him if I should add a chronograph to my list of reloading supplies to get in a couple months. He said the two of us should go in together and get one. I will be pulling the trigger on a Chrony F1 shortly.

I just hope he doesn't decide to get ME one for Christmas, although it wouldn't be a bad deal for both of us to have one.

 

[Clovishound]

Well, my buddy's new Chrony shipped today. Now I just need to see if I can wait til Christmas to give it to him, rather than the first day at the range, after it arrives.

 

[lowepg]

Ive had great luck with Shooting Chrony.

Durable, cheap, good customer service and VERY fair upgrade policy!

 

[David Bradshaw]

I have used Dr. Kenneth Oehler's chronographs for decades; the information derived has instant credibility within the arms and ammunition industry. That said, there are instruments for less loot available to provide your friend and you with a whole new body of knowledge.

Used simultaneous with targeting, a chronograph helps focus the sweet spot of a component combination. In so doing, it saves time in load development.

Tip #1) Always shoot at a target when chronographing.

Tip #2) Don't let anyone unfamiliar shoot through your screens.
David Bradshaw

 

[Clovishound]

It's supposed to arrive tomorrow. I pretty much plan on taking it over to my buddy's house when we meet on Wednesday.

They good news is that I will be able to use it whenever needed.

I just picked up some FMJs last week. Been using hard cast. I loaded up 10 of the jacketed at minimum load. Be interesting to see how they do on speed compared to the hard cast at the mid load that seems to work well for me.

 

[Clovishound]

Thanks for all the replies. I gave the F1 to my buddy. I also included the "data accessory package". He was a little taken aback by giving it to him so early, but he did say he wishes he had had it Mon when he took one of his rifles to the outdoor range. He was very happy with it, and really liked the "accessory package". I'm looking forward to trying this out myself in the near future.

 

[Goldstar225]

Glad you got the chronograph. I've had my chrony for several years. Here's a couple of tips:

-Replace the metal rods with wood dowels. That way if/when you hit one it won't damage the chronograph body.

-Place a strip of masking tape across the front set of rods about 4"-5" above the chrony as a "don't shoot below this line" mark.

 

[Rclark]

Place a strip of masking tape across the front set of rods about 4"-5" above the chrony as a "don't shoot below this line" mark.

I used black electrical tape to mark the 4" to 6" 'shot window' for the same reason. Made sense to me too.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

A few thoughts on chronographs:

A truly "experienced" reloader probably has and uses one. It's an invaluable tool to learn WHAT your loads are doing, and HOW WELL. One of the first things most folks observe is the wide variations between what the book says is going on, and what THEIR gun is doing. And then they'll find some of their loads are much more consistent than others.

I'm a believer in the theory of evolutionary creationism. That's the theory God invented the really important stuff first, then followed w/ the lesser stuff. In the chrono world, pencils and paper came along way before the electronics! Always keep a log book w/ you when using the chrono, and write everything down in it. A few units have a tape printer, but most don't, and you'll want to preserve all your data where it won't get lost. "WRITE IT DOWN" still echoes in my head since I got my chrono 30 yrs ago. Old timer did me a great service!

Some units have more bells and whistles. Don't worry if all yours does is give you the velocity and no other calculations. You're using a computer to visit here, so make it work for you a little at home: a spreadsheet can be set up to enter all your velocities and give you the "buzz stuff" that's helpful. My Oehler 33, long since discontinued, does those for me, but I write them down, too. It gives Hi (max velocity), Lo (min velocity), ES (extreme spread, difference between Hi and Lo), Avg (average of all the shots in the string) and Sd (standard deviation, a statistical calculation that lets you know how close to the average your string is holding.) You can set up your spreadsheet to do all these, or have someone show you how.

Sd--standard deviation--gets a lot of press, but few know how it's derived or what it tells us. Most are enamored of a low number, period. I like to look at the percentage as a better guide. For example, let's do a pistol round at 750 fps and a rifle round at 2500 fps. Both have an Sd of 30 fps. As a percentage, that's 4% for the slower pistol round, but only 1.2% for the rifle. What that tells me is the rifle round's almost perfect, but I'd want to work on the pistol round some. I have a self-imposed 2% figure I try for. That's not ALWAYS possible, but has worked as a "general rule" for me.

And on that subject, when you're working w/ revolvers, pick a chamber to use for your testing. Each chamber's ever so slightly different that it can skew your results. I you want to know what the load will do w/ greatest accuracy on paper, run a string w/ each chamber. You may also wish to run a couple of strings thru a full cylinder to see how close they can hold for field use.

How many shots do you need to shoot in a string? I've found five is a minimum, and more than 10 is seldom required.

How far away should the chrono be set? W/ my Oehler, I do rifles at 15 ft, pistols usually about 10 ft, and shotguns at three feet. Align everything VERY carefully! Yeah, it sounds odd that one would shoot their chrono, but it happens all the time. I won't tell you why my Oehler SkyScreen boxes have black electrical tape on them, or why a roll of same is in the kit when doing chrono work!

Expensive or cheap? A buddy's got the basic $100 Crony, and the numbers are so close to the Oehler, which was about $300 IIRC, as to be identical. The machine itself is just a counter, and those chips don't cost much. It's the bells and whistle that cost. So the budget's up to you.

Watch the weather, too. Temperature differences come into play, and you may find some loads are more or less sensitive to changes there. You may also find your machine works better when the sun's hitting the screens from an angle than from straight above. Most units today have diffusers to help avoid some of that problem.

That's enough rambling for now... have fun and learn some things. Soon enough you'll wonder how you got along w/o a chrono!

Rick C

 

[Rclark]

Good advise Rick! Only comment I have is what follows :

and more than 10 is seldom required.

For SD (Standard Deviation) to have any real meaning, a minimum of 10 rounds should be shot. I normally shoot minimum of 15 and of course more is always better for more 'confidence' in your results. BTW, I have never worked up a load for rifle... yet... All my work has been done with revolvers. As a side note, you will most always find SD to be about 1/3 of the extreme spread (ES). Just for a 'quick' head calculation . For the calibers I work with, I like to find an SD under 20. Preferably under 10. Of course 0 would be the 'best' but not quite possible (lowest I ever hit was 5 with some loads)! However 'accuracy' is the ultimate goal, and some 'consistent' loads have not shot all that well. When you find that load that is both consistent and accurate... You have an ace to draw to. And knowing its velocity you know how hard hitting if that is important to you.

And on that subject, when you're working w/ revolvers, pick a chamber to use for your testing.

I've never done that.... Hmmm, now you did it! I will have to 'retest' a favorite load just to see how much difference it makes statistics wise . Load 30 in same session with same vintage brass... Shoot 15 with one chamber and then 15 in all 6 chambers.... All shot in the same session of course so environment (temp/light) doesn't enter the equation....

 

[Rick Courtright]

and more than 10 is seldom required.

For SD (Standard Deviation) to have any real meaning, a minimum of 10 rounds should be shot. I normally shoot minimum of 15 and of course more is always better for more 'confidence' in your results.

Hi,

If I were to dust off that statistics book lying around here somewhere, it would probably tell me the exact same thing, huh?

You bring up a very good point about accuracy vs consistency. I learned long ago to shoot some of my ammo at targets BEFORE running it across the chrono. If it hit where I wanted, or could control, then further testing was in order. If it wouldn't hit well, I saved the time testing further. Funny thing was my "best" loads on paper and/or clay targets ALSO maintained a pretty good consistency over the screens. Most of the time... w/ shotguns, every one's an entity unto itself just like rifles and handguns, but the nature of the beast is their ammo doesn't HAVE to be AS consistent to work well, and some of my "better" loads on the scoresheets didn't look so good on the chrono pages in the log book...

W/ my rifles and pistols, accuracy and consistency might not walk hand in hand, but they're pretty close. So far, at least! There's always gonna be some weird exception to the rule.

Rick C

 

[mr surveyor]

Test multiple shots with same chamber!

For me, having no custom tuned revolvers, that is the best common sense tip I've seen in a long time.

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

When my loving wife asked what I wanted for Christmas, I told her a MagnetoSpeed. I am hopeful.

When it comes to SD, does anyone consider the 2xSD number? Doesn't that get you to the 90% statistical confidence level?

 

[David Bradshaw]

I pay more attention to EXTREME SPREAD than statistical standard deviation. As hinted at earlier, the more rounds fired, the more statistically relevant STANDARD DEVIATION becomes.

Many shooters chronograph two, or three, sometimes 5-rounds, and treat the numbers as solid information. With ammo often running one or two dollars a pop, the thinning wallet pleads restraint.

I look for HIGH ACCURACY and STEADY VELOCITY. I did not say "high velocity"----unless that is a specific quest. Long range accuracy is not achieved with wide velocity variations, as out yonder the slower bullet drops faster. The accuracy flaw may only register in a vertical line----until wind shoves the slower bullet sideways.

An very accurate load may exhibit high extreme spread at relatively close range, say 100 yards with a .223 Rem. But for control of vertical dispersion at long range, extreme spread must be yarded in.

By the same token, very low extreme spread does not guarantee accuracy. To paint a simple picture, we can make a consistent load with a badly out-of-balance bullet. The load has very low extreme spread but horrible accuracy.

Some cartridges can be powder/bullet specific. A specific bullets wants a particular powder. The .45 ACP is one.

Some powders are not bullet-specific, such as 296/H-110 in the the .44 magnum.

My argument is for TARGETS & CHRONOGRAPHS, used together. Saves ammo and multiplies information at the same time.
David Bradshaw

 

[Rclark]

My argument is for TARGETS & CHRONOGRAPHS, used together.

That is how I do it. Together. After that, if a load looks promising, I'll confirm later with another batch without the chronograph.... Might say 'fun' shooting rather than 'work' shooting .