I recently received my 3 3'4" super blackhawk and love the size of it.Took it out today with some Federal AE(not a heavy load) and every shot the base pin moved forward.I can actually push the pin in till it clicks in place and with some force,pull/push it forward with my fingernails.Lady at Ruger said it was the base pin latch and they would send me a new one.If it's the latch,how come I can move it(lot of force) with the pin locked in place with the latch.I did read somewhere to put the pin in a drill and make the indent a little deeper with a round file but??It's not like I can replace the pin easily because of the barrel length.Should I try a new base pin latch,use a stronger spring(Wolff) or wait and see if the new latch does the trick?I'm thinking that the pin groove might not be machined deep enough but I can cause trouble when I think.Got another 3 3/4" coming next week so hope I don't have the same problem.Thirteen supers and nary a problem with base pins till now :? Any help would be appreciated.Thanks
Base pin question??
- Thread starter 357phase
- Start date
SAJohn
Hunter
I wouldn't do any metal removal until I positively identified the problem. The few times I have had problems I removed pins, latches, and springs from several Blackhawks and mixed things around. This solved the problem for all of them which tells me that tolerance stackup can be the problem. With one, a stronger spring fixed it. I had one that would lock too tight, so go figure (that also turned out to be a bad spring).
John
John
Thanks SAJohn.I sure didn't want to file and regret it.Just couldn't figure me being able to pull out the pin and it in the locked position.I'll start with the latch and maybe put in a stronger spring and see what that does before I get a bigger hammer :twisted:
Driftwood Johnson
Blackhawk
Howdy
The last thing you want to do is chuck up the pin in a drill and attack it with a file. Way too uncontrolled a method. Real easy to remove too much metal. If you want to remove metal, you first have to determine exactly where it needs to be removed, and then only remove it from that spot. Chucking the pin in a drill is much too coarse an approach.
The real problem is the design of the pin. There is nothing new about cylinder pins jumping forward, Colts do it too.
Take a look at this photo. The pin in the front is a typical Ruger pin.
The problem is that the groove on the pin that engages the latch is cut around the pin. Colt pins are like that too. Cutting the groove around the pin is easy and cheap. It is just one more cut while the pin is in the lathe. With modern CNC lathe programs it is just one more bit of code to have the cutter cut the groove while the pin is still in the tool holder.
But the problem is, with a groove cut around the pin, there is not much metal to metal contact between the pin and the latch. So the pin can jump forward if the gun jumps back very much from recoil.
The pin at the rear is one made by Belt Mountain. Notice the groove does not run around the pin, it simply runs across the pin. There is more metal left in place. This provides more surface contact between the pin and the latch and will help keep the pin in place better. At one time Ruger made their pins this way, but it is more expensive, and they went back to the old way, with the groove cut around the pin.
The nice thing about the Ruger pin is you don't have to orient it when you insert it in the gun. You just pop it in place. With the Belt Mountain pin, and the Ruger pins that were made this way, orientation must be observed when the pin is inserted. There is a flange running around the pin, and there is a clearance cut for the barrel in the flange on the opposite side from the groove. The clearance cut keeps the groove oriented to engage the latch, and when inserting the pin, one must observe the orientation or the pin will jam in the gun. But with a pin designed this way, the pin will not jump forward.
Yes, you can put a stronger spring in the latch, but that does not really address the core problem, of a poor design. I have Belt Mountain pins in a whole bunch of my single action revolvers, both Colts and Rugers. The one in the photo is usually sitting inside a First Generation Colt. It does not jump forward when the gun is fired, no matter how much recoil there is.
http://www.beltmountain.com/
By the way, I do not recommend getting the Belt Mountain pins with the set screw. Just a little bit too much torque on the set screw and the pin bends a teeny bit, just enough to cause the cylinder to bind. I have the standard pins in my guns, they stay put.
The last thing you want to do is chuck up the pin in a drill and attack it with a file. Way too uncontrolled a method. Real easy to remove too much metal. If you want to remove metal, you first have to determine exactly where it needs to be removed, and then only remove it from that spot. Chucking the pin in a drill is much too coarse an approach.
The real problem is the design of the pin. There is nothing new about cylinder pins jumping forward, Colts do it too.
Take a look at this photo. The pin in the front is a typical Ruger pin.
The problem is that the groove on the pin that engages the latch is cut around the pin. Colt pins are like that too. Cutting the groove around the pin is easy and cheap. It is just one more cut while the pin is in the lathe. With modern CNC lathe programs it is just one more bit of code to have the cutter cut the groove while the pin is still in the tool holder.
But the problem is, with a groove cut around the pin, there is not much metal to metal contact between the pin and the latch. So the pin can jump forward if the gun jumps back very much from recoil.
The pin at the rear is one made by Belt Mountain. Notice the groove does not run around the pin, it simply runs across the pin. There is more metal left in place. This provides more surface contact between the pin and the latch and will help keep the pin in place better. At one time Ruger made their pins this way, but it is more expensive, and they went back to the old way, with the groove cut around the pin.
The nice thing about the Ruger pin is you don't have to orient it when you insert it in the gun. You just pop it in place. With the Belt Mountain pin, and the Ruger pins that were made this way, orientation must be observed when the pin is inserted. There is a flange running around the pin, and there is a clearance cut for the barrel in the flange on the opposite side from the groove. The clearance cut keeps the groove oriented to engage the latch, and when inserting the pin, one must observe the orientation or the pin will jam in the gun. But with a pin designed this way, the pin will not jump forward.
Yes, you can put a stronger spring in the latch, but that does not really address the core problem, of a poor design. I have Belt Mountain pins in a whole bunch of my single action revolvers, both Colts and Rugers. The one in the photo is usually sitting inside a First Generation Colt. It does not jump forward when the gun is fired, no matter how much recoil there is.
http://www.beltmountain.com/
By the way, I do not recommend getting the Belt Mountain pins with the set screw. Just a little bit too much torque on the set screw and the pin bends a teeny bit, just enough to cause the cylinder to bind. I have the standard pins in my guns, they stay put.
I'll call Belt Mountain and see if the sheriff model pin will work on mine.My pin is 3" as close as I can tell(ejector rod housing prevents pin from coming out) so maybe the sheriff pin will work.I do have a BM pin somewhere but for a 4 5/8" barrel and longer and never tightend the set screw.Thanks for the heads up I'll be sure not to tighten the screw on mine if I ever find and use it.Just swapped out the latch with my 7 1/2" and it seems to hold.I'll find out tomorrow.Guess I need to take the ejector rod housing off or find my calipers to get an exact measurement and see what BM can do.Other than this minor problem,I love the feel and looks of these 3 3/4" supers and what little I fired it today,it's great.Lady at Ruger also said they had them in blue(didn't know that) but very happy with my stainless.Thanks for the information...
chris_
Blackhawk
I have a 3 3/4" SBH as well and have the same problem. The Sheriff length pin from BM DOES fit. Solved my problem nicely. I think Ruger was in a rush to get these out the door. Every one I have seen had the worst fitting grips and base pin issues.
Hey,thanks Chris!Just what I wanted to know.Called BM and could not talk to anyone and didn't have the option of leaving a message.Looks like somebody's busy and needs to hire some help.Checked Brownells and Midway and both out of stainless sheriff pins.Glad to know the sheriff pin will work so sheriff it is.Even if I have to get a blued pin 8)
Driftwood Johnson
Blackhawk
Howdy Again
I'm pretty sure making cylinder pins is a part time job, I think Kelye probably holds down a real job too. I don't really think he has the option of hiring somebody to answer the phone.
I just ordered the pin you see from Belt Mountain a couple of weeks ago. It showed up in about ten days. If you go to the web page there is an order form you can print. Just fill it out and mail it in with your check. Be sure and include a phone number you can be reached at if there is a problem.
Thanks Driftwood J,I ordered one (blued) from Brownells.His answer message just said he was very busy and I've noticed the stainless pins are all on backorder so just figured he had more than he could handle.Just very happy that the sheriff will fit and won't have this problem again...I hope.
Montelores
Buckeye
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2009
- Messages
- 1,345
What is the procedure for fitting the BM base pins? Are they not slightly oversize?
Thanks -
Monty
Thanks -
Monty
Driftwood Johnson said:
I agree. On top of that, if you are out in the field, and need to remove the pin, you have to have allen key (or screwdriver if you have Bowen style) to take it out.
Montelores said:
Listed pins http://www.beltmountain.com/ruger.htm are .2495, I think these are standard dia, same as original. However, you can get oversize http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=25448/Product/RUGER-OVERSIZE-BASE-PIN .2515 dia. The rule of thumb is if gun is accurate, get standard pin dia. If not, you can experiment with larger one; accuracy might improve, but do not be surprised if you get about the same, or in some (rather rare) instances larger groups.
However, if accuracy is the issue, I bet that barrel is chocked in the frame for at least .001. And also, I would make sure that cylinder chambers are at least .0015 larger than groove dia, and bullets sized accordingly. See this interesting article http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/ross-seyfried-lipseys-ruger-flattop-44-special-bisley-revolvers/ . (BTW, some comments below this article are, at the best, problematic)
Montelores
Buckeye
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2009
- Messages
- 1,345
Thanks for the information -
Monty
Monty
Driftwood Johnson
Blackhawk
Howdy
'Fitting' a Belt Mountain pin actually means two separate things. There is the diameter of the pin, and there is the slot cut across the pin that engages the cross latch on the revolver.
I recently purchased an old Bisley Colt. Made in 1908, it has had some parts replaced over time. One of the replacement parts was the cylinder pin. The pin had obviously been hand made. By a competent gunsmith, no question about that, but still it was hand made and not the original pin. All the lathe work on the pin was top notch. But the slot cut across the pin to engage the latch had obviously been cut by hand with some sort of grinder. It was not square, it was clearly hand cut, and Colt never cut their pins like that, they always just cut a groove completely around the pin. Here is the pin.
To make matters worse, the pin was about .0005 too large in diameter and would jam in the gun. You can see the plier marks I left on it trying to get it out.
Luckily, I had a couple of Belt Mountain pins in other guns, so I was able to try different diameter pins in the Bisley. I determined that a .2515 diameter pin would suit me best so I ordered one. That is it in the photo in my earlier post. When it arrived, I popped it into the Bisley and it fit perfectly. Just enough slop that it would not get stuck. But no more.
Generally you should not have to do any fitting of the diameter of a Belt Mountain pin. They are centerless ground and are very accurate. You simply choose the specific diameter that you need.
But sometimes even with a Belt Mountain pin, a little fitting is needed. I'm not talking about the diameter, I'm talking about the slot. Sometimes a teeny amount of metal needs to be removed from the slot in order to get the latch to hold the pin tightly without the pin jumping forward under recoil.
The way I do this is observe how the latch is engaging the slot. When properly fit, the latch should be completely engaged with the slot for its entire length. It is easy to do this. Just remove the pin and the cylinder, then observe the position of the latch. It will be sprung all the way to the side. Then put just the pin back in place, not the cylinder, and pull the latch all the way open and let it go. The latch should snap smartly all the way over just as if the pin was not there. If the latch does not snap all the way home, or if it is sluggish, I small amount of metal needs to be removed in the slot. I take a sharpie and completely blacken the entire slot. Then I pop the pin back in place, and I pull the latch all the way out and let the spring snap it back. Then I pull out the pin and look at the black ink. The latch will have scuffed the ink where it interfered with the slot. Using a jeweler's rat tail file, NOT A DREMEL TOOL, I carefully remove a tiny amount of metal just where the ink was removed. Just a tiny amount. Then I reblacken it and put it back in the gun and snap the latch again. The scuff mark will have moved a bit, indicating a new spot where a tiny amount of metal needs to be removed. I just keep repeating this process until the latch pops smartly all the way home with the pin in position. Usually only takes about 15 minutes. Then I have a pin that is perfectly fitted to the latch in my gun.
Unfortunately, with a pin that has the groove cut completely around the pin, like Ruger (and Colt) cuts them, this method does not work. There is no way to index the pin as you put it in the gun so the fitted area lines up with the latch. In such a case, I would just replace the pin with a Belt Mountain pin.
Montelores
Buckeye
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2009
- Messages
- 1,345
Thanks, Driftwood and Rclark, for the help.
I have a .357 Blackhawk with a BM base pin installed by a gunsmith, and the set-screw is a bit inconvenient, because I never seem to have the allen key handy.
I have never tightened it much, being mostly a .38 Spl. shooter, and now, after these comments, I may just remove the set screw altogether. I had assumed that it also keeps the base pin from rotating (as much as it can, due to the "slot" being cut on only one side).
Thanks again -
Monty
I have a .357 Blackhawk with a BM base pin installed by a gunsmith, and the set-screw is a bit inconvenient, because I never seem to have the allen key handy.
I have never tightened it much, being mostly a .38 Spl. shooter, and now, after these comments, I may just remove the set screw altogether. I had assumed that it also keeps the base pin from rotating (as much as it can, due to the "slot" being cut on only one side).
Thanks again -
Monty
Driftwood Johnson said:
If you contact Belt Mountain, you can get those pins without set screw, at least that's the info gentleman from Belt Mountain posted before.
BTW, I strongly suggest get #5 pin, you will never want to use any other pin after you try it.
Short Barrel
Blackhawk
I have an older Sheriff's model and have never had the problem.I use heavy .45 loads in it too.Sheriff's models have a way short ejector rod stroke as it is and the Belt mountain pin has a taller head so restricts it more.I bought one and elected not to use it for that reason.I like the Ruger pin and replacing it shouldn't be a big deal.I would put a stronger spring in the latch first and see what that does.
tek4260
Buckeye
Remember that replacing the latch spring with a stronger one only treats the symptom and does not cure the problem.
Okay,new BM sheriff pin came today.While it will work,it's to long to get the cylinder out :? I guess it's off to the grinder so I can get the head of the pin ground down enough to clear.There's hardly a head on the original(very thin) so I guess they'll hardly be a head on the BM when I get done.Wonder if I should grind or dremel the head down?
Knurled part of pin is gone.Used a dremel with cutter wheel to get most of it and grinded the rest down.Seems like it's working fine so I'll find out tomorrow.Can now insert/remove cylinder with no problem.A thinner type of ejector button might have worked without removing so much of the end of the pin but so far so good.
