Are subcompact pistols obsolete?
- Thread starter hpman66
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No. The Sprinfield XD-9 Mod 2.0 sub - compact fits my hand nice, conceals easy, and has all the capacity you can ask for. It's easy to shoot accurately.
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The problem I think is most of the people who buy these not only don't plan to ever really shoot them but also don't know how.
Years ago I bought an LCP and later sold it. I never could fire that little gun accurately at all. Probably 7 or 8 feet was as far away from a target as I could hit easily. Plus it was really "snappy" in my opinion so I hated to shoot it. My LC9s is just a tad bigger but much easier to shoot and shoot decently.
Everything has it's place. You just have to know it and it's limitations. My LCP and Bond Arms are definitely best inside 10yds. There is no wardrobe discipline required to carry either. My EDC Max9 is exponentially more capable and only requires a Cargo Pocket for comfortable concealed carry. If I am stepping up to a full size it's either because I consider it a serious possibility that I would be needing to clear a neighborhood or for BBQ duty.
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I think the first generation micro 9’s made .380’s obsolete, now the second generation micro 9’s have made the first generation micro 9’s obsolete.
My personal favorite micro 9 has always been the first Walther PPS, but my friends Hellcat has more capacity in the same size.
There is a used like new Gen1 PPS w/ 2 magazines at my LCS for $299 with no takers.
My personal favorite micro 9 has always been the first Walther PPS, but my friends Hellcat has more capacity in the same size.
There is a used like new Gen1 PPS w/ 2 magazines at my LCS for $299 with no takers.
I like Honest Outlaw’s videos. He does talk fast though. But lots of good info in that video.
Is there a defined difference between a “Micro” vs “Sub Compact” ????
For example he shows one gun with a 3 inch barrel. Well heck, I have a GP100 with a 3 inch barrel, I wouldn’t say it’s micro or subcompact. Yes, it’s a revolver not semi-auto. But still, where is the line between the two?
Agree with above comments too, market is saturated and people buying these guns probably don’t know how to shoot them.
I’ve got a Kimber EVO 9mm. Definitely a sub-compact, probably a Micro 9 actually. I shoot it, but probably not as well as something larger.
Is there a defined difference between a “Micro” vs “Sub Compact” ????
For example he shows one gun with a 3 inch barrel. Well heck, I have a GP100 with a 3 inch barrel, I wouldn’t say it’s micro or subcompact. Yes, it’s a revolver not semi-auto. But still, where is the line between the two?
Agree with above comments too, market is saturated and people buying these guns probably don’t know how to shoot them.
I’ve got a Kimber EVO 9mm. Definitely a sub-compact, probably a Micro 9 actually. I shoot it, but probably not as well as something larger.
contender
Ruger Guru
The micro guns are often bought by many to carry & not really shoot much. Generally by the casual gun owner who wants a "pocket gun just in case!" Many are not fired at all. Of if so,, shot with one magazine & then just carried.
The LCP is known for it's heavy & harder to pull trigger. Many know that a good trigger is one of the key components in accurate shooting.
However, the very first rounds out of a LCP by Miss Penny resulted in a larger group than she's capable of,, and he comment was; "It bites!"
My first rounds were just the opposite,, using the exact same gun. At 35 ft, on my 8" steel plate rack, I hit 5 out of 6 immediately. Then I shot a group at 15 yds,, that was about 6".
The gun is CAPABLE of good accuracy for it's size,, but it does require a different thought process to shoot it accurately.
Most casual shooters aren't capable of that.
BUT,, small, micro or very compact pistols are actually considered very close range defensive firearms.
Are the obsolete?
By far,, NOT!!!!!
But there are quite a few different varieties to choose from & the prices can be pretty good, due to the volume of them.
But a SHOOTER,, or someone who spends more than the casual one magazine & quit type of shooting,, OFTEN prefer a larger & easier to handle firearm.
When I teach,, I tell students; "Find the gun that fits YOUR hands,, and YOU can shoot comfortably. Then PRACTICE a lot." Often,, they have chosen a larger than micro gun for their purposes.
The LCP is known for it's heavy & harder to pull trigger. Many know that a good trigger is one of the key components in accurate shooting.
However, the very first rounds out of a LCP by Miss Penny resulted in a larger group than she's capable of,, and he comment was; "It bites!"
My first rounds were just the opposite,, using the exact same gun. At 35 ft, on my 8" steel plate rack, I hit 5 out of 6 immediately. Then I shot a group at 15 yds,, that was about 6".
The gun is CAPABLE of good accuracy for it's size,, but it does require a different thought process to shoot it accurately.
Most casual shooters aren't capable of that.
BUT,, small, micro or very compact pistols are actually considered very close range defensive firearms.
Are the obsolete?
By far,, NOT!!!!!
But there are quite a few different varieties to choose from & the prices can be pretty good, due to the volume of them.
But a SHOOTER,, or someone who spends more than the casual one magazine & quit type of shooting,, OFTEN prefer a larger & easier to handle firearm.
When I teach,, I tell students; "Find the gun that fits YOUR hands,, and YOU can shoot comfortably. Then PRACTICE a lot." Often,, they have chosen a larger than micro gun for their purposes.
KIR
Sparks, NV
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- 2,771
The LCP was never made to shoot accurately further than across a card table. I still have mine. Once saw where one was stored in a cut-out book. I got the extensions for all of my mags. As for the LC9, that was a pistol that had a horrific trigger. Only pistol I ever sold. Replaced it with a NIB Browning Hi-Power III, which is a great firearm. So, much so, I bought a 77C when I saw one at my LGS. After a new skeletonized hammer/sear and a rear square sight donated by a member here, it too shoots accurately!
And have unrealistic expectations of the gun and their own abilities with it ……
Non shooters have no concept of reality. They get a gun and a box of ammo and consider themselves armed. They think a shotgun is like a claymore and they just have to be pointing in the general direction to devastate something!!!
I don’t believe the Subcompact is obsolete. I also don’t believe the market is saturated. I do believe manufacturers are still trying to bring something new out. I do think that people do tend to settle in on a model and stay with that for a while. I also believe people have too much spendable money and manufacturers have figured out they have to come up with something else to get people to spend it.
GunnyGene
Hawkeye
"As for the LC9, that was a pistol that had a horrific trigger." The LC9s has an excellent trigger. When I bought it I had first intended to buy a S&W Shield in 9mm, but handled the LC9s and much preferred the smooth trigger on the Ruger. I haven't practiced with this gun as much as I should but so far I have never had a single FTE or FTF or any other malfunction. And unlike the LCP, I find that I can shoot it halfway accurately at 5 to 7 yards, about the maximum distance I think I would ever need to handle.
kickingandscreaming
Bearcat
I always figured the LCP was for powder burn distance and a chance to practice point shooting.
I have two of the original LCP. One gets shot at the range and is pretty worn after about 3-4 thousand
rounds, the other gets carried and has tops 4-5 hundred rounds through it.
Standing at 50 feet shooting at a regular piece of copy paper from a concealed draw I can hit it
6 times consistently in about 4-5 seconds. If I shoot faster I'll get about a 50 % hit rate at 2.5 to 3 seconds.
As a comparison with a Glock 19 I'll be above 90 percent in 2 to 2.5 seconds average.
I don't really see the odds of ever needing a defensive gun out and about in the world at more than
about 10 feet so I'm happy to carry the LCP most of the time. Other times it's a Glock 36 in .45acp.
rounds, the other gets carried and has tops 4-5 hundred rounds through it.
Standing at 50 feet shooting at a regular piece of copy paper from a concealed draw I can hit it
6 times consistently in about 4-5 seconds. If I shoot faster I'll get about a 50 % hit rate at 2.5 to 3 seconds.
As a comparison with a Glock 19 I'll be above 90 percent in 2 to 2.5 seconds average.
I don't really see the odds of ever needing a defensive gun out and about in the world at more than
about 10 feet so I'm happy to carry the LCP most of the time. Other times it's a Glock 36 in .45acp.
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I have a LCP II and the trigger was awful. I changed the springs and it now has a good trigger. It wasn't designed to compete in matches but rather to be a small concealable self defense pistol. While it is 'snappy' when fired ,at 7 yards it does the job required of it.
Sales of the guns and their calibers will be the factor when they become obsolete. I am not looking up or care what the sales are at this time. As some said Sub-compact revolver or semi auto guns have had and still do an overwhelming market to the type of person who wants to buy a small handy handgun. Many are not shooters per say. Having a gun in a night side is enough. Just like decades of the past a gun (back then) a 2 inch barrel in 38 spl. was fine. Now it's the .380/ 9mm's since gun companies are flooding the market with them. I also agree any of those "sub-compacts" are likely the worse choice for far too many to learn to shoot safely to save their life.
Disclaimer: I own and have had many "pocket pistols". Carried with the idea of the last chance to survive a deadly encounter. Knowing the gun must be easy to get and fire into an attacker's head or body maybe as I am pinned down. At most fired at arm's length.
Disclaimer: I own and have had many "pocket pistols". Carried with the idea of the last chance to survive a deadly encounter. Knowing the gun must be easy to get and fire into an attacker's head or body maybe as I am pinned down. At most fired at arm's length.
I have a P3AT that is tiny. Very rarely do I carry it. However, there is, once in a while, a reason to carry it when nothing else will work. Now if I thought I would be NEEDING a gun , I wouldn’t go. But I am one of those odd duck, be prepared Eagle Scouts who always carries. So it still has a place.
I really need to get my mill set back up. I can save hundreds on Optic cuts.
I have an LCP that was one of the first year production. Of course, being a Ruger, I had to send it back for a recall. I once went to a range and had a cut from the recoil of the slide. I mentioned that to the shop and the reaction was, you shot that 50 times today? Almost no one does that! With a little practice, its not hard to hold center of body at 30 ft. Practice, practice, practice. Seriously, do it. No matter what your preference is, shoot it.
DGW1949
Hawkeye
I read somewhere the terms "Your get out of trouble gun vis your go to trouble gun". As a private citizen, I'm mostly in the "get out of trouble" situation. The micro compact guns work just fine. And I DO take them to the range and practice. Yes, I shoot the SR1911 9mm and the Glock 19 much better. I'm in the process of moving from an LC9 I've carried for years to a S&W CSX. Going to take some practice! First time out to the range last week was "just OK". Practice, Practice, Practice, Practice.
magnum0710
Single-Sixer
They're not obsolete at all, just like revolvers aren't obsolete, everything has a purpose. Sure the new "micro" 9s hold a few more rounds but older subcompacts have a purpose too.
The Glock 26 is by definition a "subcompact" I have the Taurus G3C which is right around the same size. I have the EC9s which is a subcompact but closer in size to the micro 9 category. Guess which one I shoot better?
I guarantee most people would shoot a Glock 26 much better than something like a P365. They hold about the same amount of rounds but there's trade offs with both. The micro 9s might hide a little better, but it's not hard to hide a subcompact either and it'll be much easier to shoot. Plus, alot of the subcompacts can use magazines from a bigger version, like the 26 being able to use Glock 17 and 19 mags.
As for pocket pistols like the LCP, also not obsolete and serve their own purpose. There are times when all I can carry is a 380 pocket pistol, there's no way I could carry my EC9s or any micro 9 when I'm relegated to a pocket pistol. The LCP and similar models make very nice back up guns too. Sometimes it's the 380 backing up my EC9s, sometimes the G3C, other times it's back up to my revolver. Pocket pistols are "no excuse" guns, as in you have no excuse to not carry outside of legal constraints. I've never left my home unarmed since owning a pocket 380.
The Glock 26 is by definition a "subcompact" I have the Taurus G3C which is right around the same size. I have the EC9s which is a subcompact but closer in size to the micro 9 category. Guess which one I shoot better?
I guarantee most people would shoot a Glock 26 much better than something like a P365. They hold about the same amount of rounds but there's trade offs with both. The micro 9s might hide a little better, but it's not hard to hide a subcompact either and it'll be much easier to shoot. Plus, alot of the subcompacts can use magazines from a bigger version, like the 26 being able to use Glock 17 and 19 mags.
As for pocket pistols like the LCP, also not obsolete and serve their own purpose. There are times when all I can carry is a 380 pocket pistol, there's no way I could carry my EC9s or any micro 9 when I'm relegated to a pocket pistol. The LCP and similar models make very nice back up guns too. Sometimes it's the 380 backing up my EC9s, sometimes the G3C, other times it's back up to my revolver. Pocket pistols are "no excuse" guns, as in you have no excuse to not carry outside of legal constraints. I've never left my home unarmed since owning a pocket 380.
An optic equipped micro 9 can be incredibly capable. Accurate shots over 25yds no problem. Minute of bad guy hits as fast as I can pull the trigger. My go to trouble pistol is major in every way. Fast, powerful and hits at 200yds aren't overly difficult.
Attachments
"Are subcompact pistols obsolete?"
That's pretty funny! Reminds me of a bunch of other humorous articles I've seen over the years, such as "Are revolvers obsolete?", and "Are belted magnums obsolete?", and "Are pump action shotguns obsolete?"
Somebody let me know when they stop producing & selling any of the above!
That's pretty funny! Reminds me of a bunch of other humorous articles I've seen over the years, such as "Are revolvers obsolete?", and "Are belted magnums obsolete?", and "Are pump action shotguns obsolete?"
Somebody let me know when they stop producing & selling any of the above!
I don't believe subcompact pistols are obsolete. I believe they will continue to make them for a long time. Kind of odd. I've never really owned a true subcompact. I guess the closest I've come would be the Taurus PT111 Millenium G2 I had. The grip was close in size to a G-19 but the slide was shorter & it held less rounds. I'm on my second micro, a Max-9. The other was a Kel-Tec P-11. I wound up gifting to a friend. It worked well enough & shot well once I got used to the trigger. It had the worst trigger of any semi-auto pistol I've ever shot.
I've seen a lot of negatives in regard to the LCP, (heavy trigger pull, hard to shoot accurately, etc...) I am guessing that this is all about the original .380, not the LCP II ,22lr. First, my I don't have any of those problems with the .380 version, though I kinda have to reset due to the small recoil. HOWEVER, the LCP II .22LR (which I wish they would make in a WMR) has virtually no recoil and stays on target like a tack driver. 25-30 yards. Easy trigger pull to go with that Lite Rack. Far and away my favorite carry.
That being said my derringer on the other hand, is definitely a 5 or ten yard gun. At least it's a WMr. I honestly don't understand why so many sub .22s aren't WMR. it would make up for a lot.
As for being obsolete, I think it's all about usage. I was decorating my yard for Halloween ( I do go nuts with it- takes day, sound and fog included) on the purported "day of rage". I wasn't going to hang outside without something on me. The LCP II clipped on and was no problem with all that bending, stretching and climbing. Would not have wanted to do that with heavy iron. If I thought there might have been a larger scale problem I would have, but I figured whatever would happen in my area would have been some nut one on one.
So not so much obsolete as more limited in usage
That being said my derringer on the other hand, is definitely a 5 or ten yard gun. At least it's a WMr. I honestly don't understand why so many sub .22s aren't WMR. it would make up for a lot.
As for being obsolete, I think it's all about usage. I was decorating my yard for Halloween ( I do go nuts with it- takes day, sound and fog included) on the purported "day of rage". I wasn't going to hang outside without something on me. The LCP II clipped on and was no problem with all that bending, stretching and climbing. Would not have wanted to do that with heavy iron. If I thought there might have been a larger scale problem I would have, but I figured whatever would happen in my area would have been some nut one on one.
So not so much obsolete as more limited in usage
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