Any EPA 608/609 Certified Folks Here? (Refrigeration Cert)

[CGDustDevil]

After a really horrible experience with what I used to think was a very expensive, but very reputable HVAC (Heating, Ventilation & AC) company here in town, I have decided that spending all the money I just spent for an evaporator change, I could have bought all the tools AND the parts, and still had money left over to buy some spare parts!!

So I have been immersing myself in understanding how to do my own ac work.

In order to buy refrigerant, thanks to Big Daddy's federal government, one now must be EPA certified to handle and purchase refrigerant. My question for the group - Has anyone here gone through this process, and if so, I'd be very interested in the process, costs, etc. I have a pretty good idea of the study material for the 3 classes... I may try for a Universal certification, or lacking that at least Class 2. I really don't plan on hiring out to anyone, but with 5 AC units in my stable, I think it behooves me to learn to do this stuff so I can be sure to get the best possible job for the money spent.

Thanks much for any assistance!!

Regards, Pete

 

[eveled]

I have the universal recovery license. I got it around 1995 when the law first came out. So I cannot help you with how to get it now. I will say reading gauges can be tricky for a new tech. Best thing to do is to recover the Freon then weigh in a new charge. So you know what you have. That is the only way to check the charge on the ductless minisplits.

You will need a recovery machine. A vacuum pump. Gauges and hoses. Micron Gauge. Nitrogen tank with regulator. You will be into it for a couple thousand dollars. Then you will get to work in the hot attic yourself.

I think you will regret taking it on.

 

[Acorn]

I believe there is a website to get your cert. From what I understand it’s an open book type test. Mainly a formality. I check with my salesman to get the site.

 

[Acorn]

I believe there is a website to get your cert. From what I understand it’s an open book type test. Mainly a formality. https://www.epatest.com/609/openbook/

 

[CGDustDevil]

I have the universal recovery license. I got it around 1995 when the law first came out. So I cannot help you with how to get it now. I will say reading gauges can be tricky for a new tech. Best thing to do is to recover the Freon then weigh in a new charge. So you know what you have. That is the only way to check the charge on the ductless minisplits.

You will need a recovery machine. A vacuum pump. Gauges and hoses. Micron Gauge. Nitrogen tank with regulator. You will be into it for a couple thousand dollars. Then you will get to work in the hot attic yourself.

I think you will regret taking it on.

Well, I spent 2800 federal fun tickets for an over priced evaporator and 'labor' to install it, and the technician managed to dump my entire charge of R22 into the atmosphere. I'm pretty sure I can do better than that. I've got a fair background with industrial refrigeration from the oil & gas business, so there's nothing scary for me with comfort cooling. I already have a JB DV-200N vacuum pump, and I'm very proficient at reading gages and PT charts. For around 1800 bucks, I could have purchased all the tools to do the work, and snagged a new coil for $750. I can guarantee I wouldn't have lost the bloody refrigerant! Yeah, it's hot in the attic. I've already had to re-level both air handlers so the trays will drain properly. (Which is why my evaporator coils are badly corroded and leaking!) I also installed an overflow shutoff switch on each system so I don't get a surprise bath if the drains plug up again...

My big problem is that the R22 will no longer be manufactured next year. The HVAC companies charge 80 bucks a pound for the stuff now. Next year it'll be a lot higher IF anyone can get it at all. Retrofitting refrigerants tend to have some drawbacks, so I'd like to hang onto my R22 for as long as I can. The companies that do this kind of work love to sell new equipment, and have quoted me 12-15K to replace my two systems (5 and 4 ton). I just can't see the down side to doing this myself... At least not while I can still get up a ladder at the tender age of 68/69 years old! ;)

Regards, Pete

 

[eveled]

Go for it then.

 

[blume357]

Yep, it sounds like the way to go to me. I would think the tech and company that dumped the refrigerant into the air... that should be on them.

 

[Mega Twin]

It's been quite some time for me,but the certification is a breeze to pass.
As far as refrigerant goes,is R22 available wholesale any more,or are the HVAC contractors using up their supplies,and charging that much because it is no longer available?
I know I used to buy the tanks at Sam's club years ago.

 

[miniman]

ive seen all the refrigerants for sale on craigslist.brand new bottles cheap .

 

[CGDustDevil]

Yep, it sounds like the way to go to me. I would think the tech and company that dumped the refrigerant into the air... that should be on them.

Not only should they replace my R-22, they could be fined 37K or more. In fact, the EPA has sweetened the pot by putting a bounty of 10,000 bucks for people to turn in techs/business that screw up like what happened to me.

My dislike for federal control of such things in the absence of Constitutional permission makes it too distasteful for me to 'rat em out'... The 10K would be a nice summer bonus, but I've never made my money that way and I ain't about to start now. (Sometimes I wish morality was a characteristic foreign to my nature...)

I HAVE made the company understand that I know what was done, is a federal 'offense', and that I also know the financial impact of such a 'mistake'. I'll probably have to take 'em to small claims court to get my R22, but before that happens I want to have a way to legally (ugh!) handle refrigerants. If I don't do it this year then it won't get done since it will no longer be manufactured next year. ;)

Regards, Pete

 

[CGDustDevil]

ive seen all the refrigerants for sale on craigslist.brand new bottles cheap .

Thanks! I don't use Craigslist... But I just might. ;) Never gave that a thought.

Regards, Pete

 

[Rick Courtright]

ive seen all the refrigerants for sale on craigslist.brand new bottles cheap .

Thanks! I don't use Craigslist... But I just might. ;) Never gave that a thought.

Regards, Pete

Hi,

For a LONG time after R-12 was gone from the general marketplace, it was available on eBay in those little cans (12 oz or so?) we used to buy for 99 cents at the auto parts store. At really reasonable prices, including shipping. At the time, a few local A/C companies claimed they still had "some" R-12 for servicing purposes, at $60/lb.

Though I could have used some for a couple of pre-H134 vehicles, I was always hesitant about pushing the "Buy now" button: were they selling the real product? Were they shipping it properly so there wouldn't be a simple slip up the Feds can turn into a major catastrophe, like trying to mail ammo by USPS? Since a cert was already involved for "legal" purchase, was it a sting? I never bought any. Craigslist seems even riskier. Just thinking out loud here...

Rick C

 

[eveled]

Glad they revamped the test for the certificate. It used to be unnecessarily hard. Lots of dates to remember and such. Closed book. You can sum the whole thing up with one question. “Is it legal to release refrigerant into the environment?”

 

[CGDustDevil]

Glad they revamped the test for the certificate. It used to be unnecessarily hard. Lots of dates to remember and such. Closed book. You can sum the whole thing up with one question. “Is it legal to release refrigerant into the environment?”

It's still unnecessarily hard! I went ahead and got my EPA 609 certification this morning. (Motor Vehicle AC systems) It's open-book, and I still missed a few. The tests appear to be worded in such a way that there can be a couple or even 3 'correct' answers, but only one REALLY correct answer per the study guide. So when you select 'all of the above', they gotcha.

The Universal Certification (Core + Type 1, 2 & 3), which is what I really need appears to be very 'tricky' by some of the sample tests I've seen, and it's closed book.

I'll take a bit of extra time to purchase and read the study guides. Thankfully the certification doesn't expire, so I only have to be this 'smart' once. ;)

Regards, Pete

 

[Ale-8(1)]

For those of us not "in the know" what will be replacing R22 if it ceases to be available?

R410?

 

[Acorn]

For those of us not "in the know" what will be replacing R22 if it ceases to be available?

R410?

I can’t say for R22 but in automotive R12 was replaced by R134 which is somewhat being replaced with 1234yf. 1234yf is currently around $700/10lb. cyl. And I heard the 1234 is being replaced with another refrigerant but I don’t know what it’s called.

 

[eveled]

We tried using a drop in replacement and had bad luck with it. The equipment doesn’t last forever. You charge people a ton of money to flush their systems replace the inline dryers put in the replacement. Then the equipment fails anyway. You realize you should have sold a complete new 410 system in the first place.

A/C service is expensive because to do it right is very time consuming. Also everybody wants and needs it done all at the same time.

 

[eveled]

PETE, sorry to hear that. I remember being really frustrated with that test. It seemed to be lots of questions about dates and the questions were worded as if the dates were still in the future. Yet the dates were long past.


Definitely cram it into short term memory pass the test and let it go. Good luck. Ed

 

[Rick Courtright]

For those of us not "in the know" what will be replacing R22 if it ceases to be available?

R410?

Hi,

Well, since R12 was replaced by H134A, maybe R22 will morph into .17HMR. ;)

Rick C

 

[CGDustDevil]

PETE, sorry to hear that. I remember being really frustrated with that test. It seemed to be lots of questions about dates and the questions were worded as if the dates were still in the future. Yet the dates were long past.


Definitely cram it into short term memory pass the test and let it go. Good luck. Ed

Thanks Ed... Your good luck wish seems to have worked! I just drove to Phoenix and got my EPA 608 Universal certification along with 609 (Motor Vehicles) ... So I'm ready to rock & roll. ;)

The test (Esco) was considerably different from their practice exams. Not much there for dates, as there was for the practice exams oddly enough. I felt the exam (100 questions) was an excellent blend of questions about the various refrigerants, their impact on the environment, and best practices to get the work done without releasing more than the minimum amount of refrigerant necessary to get the work done. There were also some general knowledge questions that I thought were appropriate.

2019 has seen a lot of new thresholds for reporting and recordkeeping rules, but oddly enough there was only a couple questions on that. (Which I was pretty up to speed on)

I got 93% right, and scored 100% on the Type II test. (Which is the focus of my interests) The the proctor was impressed for a scraggly old retired guy who doesn't work in the HVACR business! ;) He also said I was the first guy that passed in two weeks... Apparently the test has been 'toughened up' a bit for 2019.

Now I'm gonna buy up some R22 before the price goes any higher! ;) The local businesses are charging $80 bucks a pound for the stuff, claiming it's 'taxes' that are raising the prices to drive people away from using it. Well, I can buy the stuff for around $12 dollars a pound over the counter with this certification, so I'm not sure just where these mysterious 'taxes' are coming from that raises the price from 360 bucks to 2400 bucks per 30 Lb bottle.

The technician who took a torch to my filter/drier and blew my original R22 charge into the atmosphere replied when I griped about the price of refrigerant: "Hey man... Profit isn't a dirty word yanno..." :roll: :shock: ;)

Best regards, Pete


Afterthought - Say - They also charge $80 bucks for a Start/Run capacitor that I can buy for around $15. I wonder if $80 bucks is some kind of magic number for 'em! :idea:

 

[eveled]

Glad you passed!

 

[CGDustDevil]

We tried using a drop in replacement and had bad luck with it. The equipment doesn’t last forever. You charge people a ton of money to flush their systems replace the inline dryers put in the replacement. Then the equipment fails anyway. You realize you should have sold a complete new 410 system in the first place.

A/C service is expensive because to do it right is very time consuming. Also everybody wants and needs it done all at the same time.

Replacements are not good. There is no 'drop in' replacement... The guys that blew out my R22 charge 'retrofitted' my west unit with R407C. While the pressures and temperatures are fairly close to R22, the stuff has a 10-12 degree glide, and doesn't like running in mineral oil. It also can fractionate if the system leaks, rendering the mixture more unpredictable than it already is due to the 3 part composition.

I wrote a letter to our local company, but all I got back was a 'customer service survey'. I wanted to know if I can expect compressor problems with the 'retrofitted' refrigerant. At this point I've decided that it's best to not throw good money after bad, and simply do the work myself. I'll recover the 407C and recharge the thing with R22 after the summer cooling season. I'll also refit the expansion orifice with a TXV for better humidity control during the monsoons.

Illegitimae non carborundum est... :)

Regards, Pete

 

[CGDustDevil]

For those of us not "in the know" what will be replacing R22 if it ceases to be available?

R410?

R22 will be available, albeit expensive, for some time to come. 2020 just shuts off the importation and manufacturing of NEW refrigerant. The existing R22 that's out there can still be reclaimed and returned the same standards as new refrigerant. It's not illegal for a non-certified person to possess R12 or R22. It's only illegal for vendors to sell it (or most any refrigerant) to non-certified buyers unless it's for resale.

I know a guy that still has a system working from 1985 with R12 in it. He did what I'm doing... Got equipment and works on his own. When the regulations came around in 1993/94, he got certified. He's been keeping his system going for 34 years. I don't plan on being around for 34 more years, but I aim to have two Goodman Air Conditioners running R22 when I DO go! ;)

There's a lot to know, and a LOT of ways to totally screw things up. HVAC guys tack on extra when they have to sort out DIY mistakes! lol But if anyone has some background knowledge and experience in the trades, it's certainly a doable thing. And HUGELY interesting.

 

[eveled]

I wish I shared your interest and passion for it.